#dev 2019-02-20
2019-02-20 UTC
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# 
@ChrisAldrich ↩️ For basics of Webmention try this intro article. For a quick start with notifications, try creating a http://Webmentions.io account & put an endpoint into <head> of your site so you can receive them in the erstwhile [more...]
cc: @mxbck @AaronGustafson
https://boffosocko.com/2019/02/19/reply-to-tom-critchlow-about-webmention-for-jekyll/ (twitter.com/_/status/1098014165732491264)
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# 
[jgmac1106] Jacky folks often suggest websub for this
# [jgmac1106] No forums but like idea if chat, using an emdedded third party chat app on my website now
# [jgmac1106] As my students hated signing up for one more thing
# [jgmac1106] But love idea of a light weight chat app groups could share... Guess there is irc
# [jgmac1106] Me as well but I would consider Twitter or Mastodon to be fast enough
# 
jacky if anyone is curious about Dat; I got this guide from @darius@friend.camp https://datprotocol.github.io/how-dat-works/
# [jgmac1106] jacky ifps support is in Roadmap for Known after the 1.0 release
# [jgmac1106] I was going to try Riot or Matrix for class but needed something dead simple. Thus third party app.
# [jgmac1106] design.. Writing documentation that is accessible to many....that too is crazy hard
# [jgmac1106] I tried to lay out the workflow in the GDoc and I am working on the low end of choices... folks happy to start on the high end
# [jgmac1106] Atul Varma ( cc'd him on your webmention toolness) his an old friend from Mozilla (finally met him at NYC). He is interested in IndieWeb and skilled at Dat.
# [jgmac1106] But you should connect with benwerd as he wants to go this way
# [jgmac1106] Jacky not sure for a small community if we had private sharing and webmentions a social reader wouldn't be enough... Maybe a websub public wall folks syndicate to
# [jgmac1106] Now you make me want to go try the Known to IRC plugin...never saw the need but curious about the lag
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# 
[davidmead] tantek I find (personally) using elements like <article> makes me think more about the structure of my content, and gives me a better idea of what to hang CSS on. I still use <div> tags, but less than most people
# [davidmead] I’ve found the rise of <div> & Bootsrapification divorces a lot of developers from thinking about content as, well, content. It just becomes stuffing for containers around by the designer
# 
@jackyalcine Finally at the point where I’m bringing in IndieAuth logic into my Elixir library! This is _really_ helpful since I can import this into Fortress and Koype Publish for free! Building blocks made universal! (https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/83589ece-309f-4475-b58d-bdf12a4975fd) (twitter.com/_/status/1098054641932296195)
# [davidmead] jacky I mentioned using <article> in #known, tantek carried on convo here 🙂
# [davidmead] also, using specific HTML elements helps me visualize the building blocks and overall structure rather than hunting for classes on divs. Reminds me too much of nested <td> tags from my early front-end days 😜
# [davidmead] which fits in with…
# [davidmead] >Designed for humans first and machines second
# 
KartikPrabhu that ^
# KartikPrabhu I also use <article> and <section> to organise my HTML, more than have it machine-readable or something
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# KartikPrabhu well CSS grid restricts you markup quite a bit, since only direct children are grid items :P
# KartikPrabhu same for flex box
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# 
Zegnat https://github.com/matatk/landmarks - interesting for the whole accessibility landmarks testing in browsers
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# [jgmac1106] [davidmead] my issue was you were using <article> on what was intended to be a note, I wouldn't out an <article> tag on that just as I would't on a Twitter update, its a note not a post
# 
jeremycherfas I think you are mistaking the HTML5 <article> and your internal view of post kinds.
# [jgmac1106] no the word article had meaning for me outside of HTML and noone will convinve me a note in an article
# [jgmac1106] might as call a reply an <essay>
# jeremycherfas And I'm saying that you "meaning" of the word article is the issue, not the use of the tag.
# [jgmac1106] article is no where on our template
# jeremycherfas I'll let davidmead discuss his point further with you.
# [jgmac1106] go ask ten people, "there is a website with an article on it? What do you think article means?"
# [jgmac1106] they will say an article is a long form piece of wrting
# jeremycherfas You're being silly and provocative. Go ask 10 people "what is a microformat" and you won't even get 10 answers.
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# [jgmac1106] I agree with [davidmead] I use <section> alot for this because I need to break pages up into modular pieces in my head
# [jgmac1106] why I would never ask that questio...I just think the word <article> to mean any content seperate from main content is a silly semantic splitting of hairs
# jeremycherfas Section, you mean like a saggital section? Or a transverse section?
# [jgmac1106] just hard for me to see a note as an article
# [jgmac1106] a note is short articles are long
# jeremycherfas "for me" QED
# [jgmac1106] <article class="h-entry">
# [jgmac1106] <time class="dt-published">2013-03-07</time>:
# [jgmac1106] </p>
# [jgmac1106] <a class="u-author" href="/">I</a> ate a cheese sandwich.
# [jgmac1106] <p class="p-name p-content">
# [jgmac1106] </article>
# [jgmac1106] would be a valid note...but does it feel right to you semantically?
# 
swentie absolutely :)
# jeremycherfas Absolutely, yes.
# [jgmac1106] wow and I learn somethinbg everyday a distinction of a section IS the etymology of an article
# jeremycherfas What do you mean by etymology in this context?
# [jgmac1106] as far back as the e Apostles Creed https://www.etymonline.com/word/article
# [jgmac1106] I stand corrected then article has always meant a stand alone piece of content
# jeremycherfas Sorry. I thought that you were saying that there is an etymological connection between the words section and article.
# [jgmac1106] no, now I understand I could have a <section> of my website that was articles about elephant farts, and each <article> can be anything in that <section>if it is its own content
# [jgmac1106] that is what I started with
# [jgmac1106] a note doesn'f feel like an article, but using article on a note is still fine with HTML standards
# [jgmac1106] but that was my bias onf thinking of an article like long form journalism in a paper and not the words original meaning
# [jgmac1106] but now I lost thirty minutes where I was supposed to figure out how to save my guestbook into my html server side...so I can atleast pretend I tried to learn befor you folks teach me at vHWC
# [jgmac1106] ...but then comment section it an <article> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Html/Elements/article
# [jgmac1106] rather than each comment......
# [jgmac1106] so an blog post is its own standalone peice of content but all the comments to that content are just one type of content and not their own stand alone piecee.......
# [jgmac1106] nv, each comment got marked up with an article
# [jgmac1106] citation
# [jgmac1106] atleast that is how I use <small>when I am citing photos and quotes and stuff
# [jgmac1106] no it wouldn't
# [jgmac1106] "including copyright and legal text, independent of its styled presentation."
# [jgmac1106] to me that means somethngs CC license
# [jgmac1106] I could use figure and then figure caption, but I like <small> less tags
# [jgmac1106] oh sorry should have said attribution
# [jgmac1106] don't get me started on <cite>...still find it weird one is only supposed to wrap the title when I often want to <cite> an author
# [jgmac1106] "how to save php in html server side" is not a good search term...they were being super specific wrong....different domains of knowledge place emphasis in different places as to what gets a site
# [jgmac1106] .....probablyt he same person who think you the site need a a url and you the person need a different one
# [jgmac1106] "how to save php in html server side" is not finding me tutorials or documentation...what should I be looking for
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# [jgmac1106] http://php.net/manual/en/ only documentation no tutotials or how to guides..have any php 101 favortie sites
# jeremycherfas I did a very useful MOOC at University of Michigan, but that's by no means instant.
# [jgmac1106] yeah it is my serarch term that is off server side, html file too common
# [jgmac1106] and you can't ask on Twitter bc you will get , "Who the f still learns php? have your tried node.js, python, or something people under 80 use..so I can;t go there"
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# [jgmac1106] you lie, teach me a ton
# [jgmac1106] then you put up a class online and charge 20 a seat or offer for free...I would charge
# [jgmac1106] and if I can't figure this out you will teach me again...I could use javascript but wanted to learn something
# jeremycherfas Tell [jgmac1106] If you can be more specific about what you want to save to a file, and how you are receiving the information, I can try to share a gist with you.
# jeremycherfas I save info from an RSS feed to use in my Reading to Known script, and it just works. I also had one that saved from a POST, but I'm not currently using that. There are examples in, for example, nanopub.
# [jgmac1106] https://gist.github.com/jgmac1106/fc680e2bf6436a37a3fce699b81e9a9b but people said I can do this without setting uo a database
# [jgmac1106] that is the goal
# 
Loqi [XKCD] Exploits of a Mom https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exploits_of_a_mom.png
# jeremycherfas OK, so that's the form in there. If I were you, I would store the content of each form field as an array of key:value pairs, and then write that array to a file, using a form of fopen().
# jeremycherfas The PHP manual does have examples of using fopen
# jeremycherfas I'm a bit tied up right now, but I can share my code later.
# [jgmac1106] so I am looking for a site that teaches how to: "array of key:value pairs, and then write that array to a file, using a form of fopen()." or do "file_put_contents()"
# jeremycherfas Yeah, you really do need to step back a bit. Slowly does it, very slowly in my case.
# [jgmac1106] sweet I am going to vHWC...you would think with php being around for ever the tutorials would be the best in show....you can find WAY better tutorials and guides for like every other scripting language out there
# [jgmac1106] the YouRube videos woefully out of data
# jeremycherfas I think with PHP having been around forever, the kind of people who make youtube video tutorials prefer newer shiny.
# jeremycherfas Codeacademy and others have good tutorials, but you really do need to go stepwise.
# jeremycherfas My knowledge was, and still is, very patchy, which is why I went for a solid MOOC.
# jeremycherfas In my case, it was translating the bits of FORTRAN and BASIC I learned into PHP-like concepts. And I still find objects incredibly difficult to wrap my head around.
# jeremycherfas I know, I know.
# [jgmac1106] sknebel but there has been explosion of tutorials for everything else..I tried using this: http://php.net/manual/en/tutorial.forms.php but found it useless
# jeremycherfas I didn't take it as such.
# jeremycherfas [jgmac1106] You need to think about mixing up your PHP and your HTML if you want to use PHP for the form.
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# [jgmac1106] zegnat the comments and feedback from users on the getting started page just got so confusing so quick...why you invite people to add layers of complexity to a getting started tutorial
# jeremycherfas Stackoverflow can be good too
# jeremycherfas But that can also get complex quickly.
# [jgmac1106] that is a tutorial, there are words and a sandbox
# Zegnat The problem is also with tutorials for specific things. Is it better for me to have a tutorial about just handling form-posted data? And then refer to tutorials on writing data to files, and tutorials for databases separately? Or should I have tutorials for form->php->file and form->php->db completely written up
# [jgmac1106] tutorials need to take you from web zero to web hero
# jeremycherfas I think there's a need for both kinds of things. One that explores, say, why you might use fopen() in one case and file_put_contents() in another. And others that go through a whole scenario of one way of doing things.
# [jgmac1106] first is documentation the second is a tutorial
# [jgmac1106] well its 7am time to go start my day
# [jgmac1106] ha ha , good point zegnat but I think its just popularity, angular, node, python, javascript...alll have hundreds of modern tutorials with great ui...php links to old listserv posts
# jeremycherfas We can critique that in vHWC Zegnat
# [jgmac1106] noteven sure code.org has a class on php
# [jgmac1106] granted I have philosophical issues with code.org but they are driving force in k12 compsci education in uS
# [jgmac1106] code academy stopped teaching php all together
# jeremycherfas Huh. Well, just shows you when I last used code aacademny
# [jgmac1106] ha ha jeremycherfas was that the MOOC you did?
# [jgmac1106] I just checked all the major coding schools online and those directed at k12, noon either offers or eliminated their php classes
# jeremycherfas Hell no. It was this https://www.mooc-list.com/course/building-web-applications-php-coursera
# [jgmac1106] I am happy to help with instructional design for any language or library....but I really gotta go now
# [jgmac1106] and starting 2/25! perfect timing
# jeremycherfas I don't consider code academy a MOOC. A MOOC has homework etc etc.
# Zegnat It is interesting how the industry is self-sabotaging a bit on the PHP thing. My brother was seeing the same: his trade school spent whole courses on node and JavaScript, and then sends their students out to work on ecommerce solutions that are all written in PHP (Drupal Commerce, WordPress stuff, etc.)
# [jgmac1106] stack overflow makes me sad for humanity when I visit...I hate watching people trying to learn get yelled at
# jeremycherfas There will be bits you already know, and bits you don't, but I found it incredibly valuable.
# [jgmac1106] ..yep the schools are trying to stay with the high tech industry when every field is high tech...just ten years back
# [jgmac1106] I just figured everyone I know is old so getting help in php would be the easiest language to learn given my peer group
# [jgmac1106] snark aside, it was my thinking if I am investing my time in Known..iI need to know more php than just changing HTML templates
# [jgmac1106] wonder if lynda.com has php course we get those free at work
# [jgmac1106] zegnat, even though it isn't canonical if you want people to use your first name redirect you should put it on the wiki...will update my folloiwng page later
# [jgmac1106] how else o best @ mention someone with webmentions?
# [jgmac1106] I figure the url, was way easier than trying to remember martiin is this person here and that person there..and I don't need to rely on Twitter to pass through the mention
# jeremycherfas CSS seems to be the slowest to regenerate, for me. And that's possibly a browser thing. I haven't worked out how to use CSS filename versions yet for Grav
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# [davidmead] Looks like I missed all the good <article> discussion. Scrolling back it it seems my gist example helped jgmac1106 ?
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# [jgmac1106] davidmead....it helps...but I still may use a <div> and not a <article> on a note...but was good to learn the eytymoogy of article and that my assumptions were totally wrong
# [jgmac1106] ...I could have used that for Austin...but don;t publish my flights
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# [davidmead] sknebel swentie zegnat jeremycherfas Without beating a dead horse around <article> I would appreciate any comments on my 2 gists where I lay out using that tag for blog posts etc. Structure or mf use would help me too.
# [jgmac1106] Where did you add experimental u-listen-of?
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# [jgmac1106] Few things to note.. Listen like many post types is experimental. For accepted post types Known is legit, all the templates have their Sundays on
# [jgmac1106] But no one can tell you best way to mark up a listen post as it is experimental
# [jgmac1106] For example on p-category for status folks would like it to work across all media. I prefer started, finished, in-progress, and want-to others like present perfect progressive tense...
# [jgmac1106] So go now u-listen-of all I care about
# [jgmac1106] For*
# [jgmac1106] Mean for me what I like
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# [davidmead] I think that makes sense jgmac1106
# [davidmead] might dip more into the experimental mf of listen to refresh my memory
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# [davidmead] like <i> and <b> tantek
# [davidmead] <i> just seems to be there for FontAwesome to hang icons on
# dougbeal|mb1 What is backsemantic
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "backsemantic" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "backsemantic is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [jgmac1106] ... I am perfect example I thought article was reserved for long form writing like newspapers.. I had no idea an article could be a stand alone piece of content
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# [jgmac1106] I am addicted to <section>.. Especially bc I like full bleed layout... Sections help me think in blocks....plus I can style and do nth color changes and all kinds of fun stufd
# 
@SylvainPV @serapath ok, I can't help you if you persist in ignorance. I hope you'll get the opportunity one day to discuss with disabled ppl using the web, and understand why semantics and accessibility matter. Until then, your websites won't be usable for them. (twitter.com/_/status/1098222208076402688)
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# 
@aaronpk ↩️ You don't need to explain decentralization to me ;-) I am literally the author of several W3C specs that are being used to build decentralized social networks!
https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/
https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/
https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/
https://www.w3.org/TR/indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/1098243991164747776)
# [jgmac1106] No it's the same if it has DNS or is attached to W3C it isnt decentralized
# [jgmac1106] tired argument...
# [jgmac1106] In his post indieweb.com doesn't fit definition of decentralized because it uses DNS and W3c standard
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# [jgmac1106] I know.. He is wrong on link and assumption
# [jgmac1106] But he is defining decentralized as "no dns and no standard board" you get that alot 8n folks talking blockchain who don't know blockchain
# 
@lsanger I would love to read an analysis of how well this project satisfies the vision of a decentralized social media architecture. I might not be able to get around to doing such an analysis myself for a while. https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/1098209013315948544 (twitter.com/_/status/1098241536238600192)
# snarfed i know i did in https://indieweb.org/events/2016-06-09-dwebsummit-indieweb
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# 
[kevinmarks] the point about DNS is that it is fungible, even if not fully decentralized
# [kevinmarks] you can swap out providers at al layers of DNS except the roots.
# [kevinmarks] and there are well established procedures for doing so with dispute resolution processes and so on
# 
[schmarty] i would like a few more folks to help play with IndieWeb building blocks and tools on .onion sites
# [schmarty] since they are *almost* a drop-in replacement for DNS.
# [jgmac1106] Yeah if people want convo willing... But that was tske time to explain what you do so I can explain why you wrong by describing what I haven't done
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# [jgmac1106] And a lot of the decentralized crowd now reject all things W3C since addition of DRM.... And they will complain vigorously on what ever tool they use driven by W3C standards
# [jgmac1106] EFF with their resignation flared this up among people.. If EFF says something is bad it must be evil
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "onion" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "onion is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# 
[grantcodes] what is kapowski?
# Loqi Kapowski is a simple app for posting animated GIF photos to your website using Micropub, powered by Giphy search https://indieweb.org/Kapowski
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "micropub gif client" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "micropub gif client is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "micropub giphy client" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "micropub giphy client is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# 
@jgmac1106 ↩️ you definitely should not have both... I learned that recently. Not sure the Twitter app handles webmentions.
Would love for you to experiment so we can compare markup. Do one with both one one with each and throw a random hmtl tag in to see… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/20/ken_bauer-you-definitely-should-not-have-both (twitter.com/_/status/1098267970772582400)
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# [schmarty] sknebel: it is! http://schmartyp7qtjzn7.onion/
# [schmarty] aaronpk: it is! i let my old dogecoin miner spin on it until i got a .onion address that started with schmarty. i am ridiculous.
# [kevinmarks] is that like getting a bitcoin address with a pony in?
# [schmarty] now that the new longer onion addresses are out i need to update and i doubt i'll bother going vanity again.
# [kevinmarks] oh, it was dogecoin https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/442094421937381376
# 
@kevinmarks @shanley even better, @sarahjeong got a dogecoin address with "pony" in https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/424809304319725568 (twitter.com/_/status/442094421937381376)
# [schmarty] i recently played with apache content rewriting to update links and hrefs to point to my .onion site and remove the third-party image proxy (you just get giant images, sorry)
# [schmarty] it wasn't too hard to set up! i should blog about it.
# [kevinmarks] Dat << slides for talking about DAT http://slides.kevinmarks.com/dat.html
# Loqi ok, I added "slides for talking about DAT http://slides.kevinmarks.com/dat.html" to the "See Also" section of /Dat https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=56919&oldid=55925
# [schmarty] oh! i also set up my media endpoint to serve over .onion at http://media.schmartyp7qtjzn7.onion/ so that's also pretty ncie.
# [schmarty] my other infrastructure needs some work before i'm all "onion"ed up. e.g. a webmention handler that can resolve .onions. likewise for pretty much all micropub clients, since they submit over an HTTP backchannel.
# [kevinmarks] vanity hash urls are the real proof of work. DAT has hex in the urls so harder to make them work
# [schmarty] (or i could stand up a micropub proxy from regular HTTP+DNS to the .onion site)
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# jacky might be interested for people who want to add menus and the like using <details> https://github.com/muan/details-on-details
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# [jgmac1106] Jacky I want to play with nested <details> for displaying threaded webmentions...no plumbing yet but I love the look
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# 
aaronpk try https://aaronparecki.com/primary which is my home page content, but i don't think it'll switch into conference mode
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# 
[tantek] swentel++ wow indeed! which one? one of these? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Java
# 
swentel this is how it will look in the next release :) https://twitter.com/swentel/status/1097881041505828865
# 
@swentel Added a drawer layout to Indigenous displaying your account info in the header! Oh, and uploading multiple pictures will be possible in the next release too :) #indieweb https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dzx0-65X4AUJBoW.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1097881041505828865)
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# [grantcodes] Awesome swentel. Like that it is starting to look more androidy!
# [grantcodes] swentel++
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# [davidmead] that looks great swentel++
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# [schmarty] jacky: i would love to test my knowledge by trying to explain any parts of websub, if you're willing to wade through some misunderstandings and memory failings
# [schmarty] aaronpk: don't forget the publishing side! :}
# [schmarty] forget it, then, hahahaha
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# [jgmac1106] Jacky hope I didn't send you down a rabbit hole with my, "I'd ActivityPub really the answer?" post
# [jgmac1106] Yes that's why it's awesome IMO read, write, notify (polling seems wrong) in different speca
# [jgmac1106] working on a tutorial for someone who wants to sign in to the wiki, why won't this work? jgregorymcverry.wordpress.com
# [jgmac1106] switched my github account but when I click login on the wiki it just reloads the homepage
# [jgmac1106] after I enter the ur;
# [jgmac1106] url
# [schmarty] jgmac1106: try logging in at indieauth.com and see if it finds an issue?
# [jgmac1106] it worked there...maybe caching issue...been signing in and out with different people
# [jgmac1106] ummm okay
# [jgmac1106] he has a wordpress.org so that will work, just didn't want to spin up a new instance for one simple tutorial...oh well..after New Haven edites
# [jgmac1106] why? did we have a bunch of people going through all the trouble to spam the wiki...or a bias towards..that isn't a real Domain?
# [jgmac1106] okay, I'll spin ip a new WP.org instance and re-record the "hwot to sign in to wiki" tutorial
# [jgmac1106] but the policy should change
# [jgmac1106] will do..juts triaging drewmcweeney wants to up tmiller and I organize IWC-New Haven
# [jgmac1106] was recording tutorial for him as decided against using an IndieWeb WordPress theme, he needs a how to add manual h-card tutorial..but for now how to add rel=me and link in GitHub needed
# [jgmac1106] no what does this mean: too many redirects for https://indieweb.org/Main_Page - .
# [jgmac1106] must have been a cache error, wouldn't recognize my rel=me on GitHub but worked fine in privacy mode
# [schmarty] haha woah. i just updated watchtower for the first time in a while, including running migrations 0005-0008 and suddenly a ton of feeds started updating again!
# [schmarty] aaronpk++ for watchtower and aperture
# [schmarty] idk, but a lot of feeds had not been moving and i think they clearly are now.
# [schmarty] is not sure he wants to read through all this stuff he has been "missing".
# [schmarty] like the EFF blog posts a lot of dupe content and it's all breathless outrage machine type stuff.
# [schmarty] which i often appreciate but sometimes is too much
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# [jgmac1106] What is watchtower?
# Loqi Watchtower is a minimal API for watching web pages for changes, roughly speaks the WebSub protocol https://indieweb.org/Watchtower
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# [schmarty] jacky: sweet! I'm at HWC for the next ~1.5 hours so feel free 😄
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# [schmarty] lol good point
# @jgmac1106 And it doesn't have to be Known to Known.. Webmentions is a W3C standard, makes the web our network.
Webmentions do work and look better with microformats.
This is why #IndieWeb struggles in WordPress. It is amazingly hard to add properties to HTML… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/20/and-it-doesnt-have-to-be-known (twitter.com/_/status/1098354134204514305)
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