#dev 2019-06-17

2019-06-17 UTC
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jacky [eddie]++ on protected/private posts!
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Loqi [eddie] has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (100 in all channels)
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snarfed fyi all i've switched granary to use white-space: pre CSS in HTML output when there's meaningful whitespace. (i used to manually convert newlines to <br>s, which wasn't good enough.) let me know if you see any problems!
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snarfed background: https://indieweb.org/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking
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aaronpk Interesting
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aaronpk I strip out most css from feeds I follow for security/display reasons so this will be interesting
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snarfed oh yeah h-feeds, shrug
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snarfed in eg atom this goes inside <content type="xhtml">, which i'm more familiar with how readers handle
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snarfed aaronpk: i assume you strip inline css too?
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snarfed heh probably more common per h-entry than <link>s so i assume yes
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aaronpk Yea inline too
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snarfed that's an interesting conflict with our current recommendation for whitespace handling in section b (white-space: pre-wrap) in https://indieweb.org/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking
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aaronpk I haven't looked at that page for a while, but IMO whitespace that's relevant to the content should not rely on presentational CSS to render
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aaronpk in other words if CSS is turned off and only browser default styling is used it should look somewhat like intended
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aaronpk snarfed: that section of the wiki even talks about the drawbacks of that method, with a note from kylewm from 2015 even
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snarfed aaronpk: agreed, we don't have a single clear conclusion yet
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snarfed i hear your vote. so you'd advocate for &nbsp; for every meaningful space too?
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snarfed noticeably clumsier and less readable when reading the e raw data itself, not only in html itself but also atom, rss, json feed, other places where content fields are/can be interpreted as HTML
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aaronpk obvs not for single spaces
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aaronpk but yeah if you want a gap like that
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snarfed true
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snarfed interesting, ok
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snarfed i see the two sides. looking forward to a conclusion :P
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aaronpk I remember this conversation in another context too, wonder where that was captured
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aaronpk Maybe regarding webmention?
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[cleverdevil] Cool, [grantcodes]! Can’t wait to try out the updated Together :0
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jacky is trying to find a solid method for "blocking" people from interacting with you in the IndieWeb.
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jacky It's not a matter of "if" but "when"
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jacky and this is a strong ask I get whenever I go on my recruiting spree offline
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[kevinmarks786] The question is blocklist or accept list (or both)
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[kevinmarks786] You can do it for webmention display, but making it difficult to see your account yet it still being visible by default is tough compared to a centralised login
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jacky For completely public posts, it's tough. The AP space solved it to a degree
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@kleinfreund Phew, this whole IndieWeb thing is super convoluted. There are webmentions which are somehow comments. They can be sent and received. You have to use something called IndieAuth but it has an unhelpful deprecation notice. (twitter.com/_/status/1140543587748388865)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Webmentions are better than native comments and can be fun. There are third party services to try using Telegraph or choose a CMS that has support. (twitter.com/_/status/1140546801738616833)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ IndieAuth allows you to use your Domain as an identity to sign into stuff like wiki. So on your website have a link to your GitHub account with rel=me and then a link back to your site on GitHub you have enough. Log in with domain and be prompted to use GitHub credentials. (twitter.com/_/status/1140548181916344320)
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GWG Morning
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Loqi *yawn* ... /stretch/
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[jgmac1106] morning
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jgmac1106[m] Getting closer: We can confirm that sending unsolicited @mentions is prohibited by our Automation Rulesand the Twitter Rules on spam. We can only consider a request to reactivate your app after you agree to stop this behavior.
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jgmac1106[m] Regards,
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GWG Did you do that?
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GWG Assume not
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[jgmac1106] Yes, I was inviting people to summit. They weren't unsolicited as I told people in other channels or we are in same blogosphere. Twitter wouldn't know that
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GWG I figured. Wondering if they'll accept that
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GWG I have been reluctant to deal with their API, even though I know snarfed is calling for more Bridgy redundancy
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[jgmac1106] they did, I wrote a message that said "I will not do that" the similarity of my invites in terms of syntax tripped up the automated process...now to figure how to get last two weeks of tweets back on my website
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snarfed jacky: some block discussions, probably relevant beyond just bridgy/backfeed: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/762
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Loqi [kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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@schnarfed ↩️ if it helps, you don't have to use IndieAuth, or even webmentions. all the parts are optional. indieweb is posting on your own web site, on your own domain. the rest is gravy. (twitter.com/_/status/1140617921019858944)
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snarfed an entire library just to parse HTTP Link headers 🤦‍♀️ https://pypi.org/project/httplink/
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snarfed sad that this is necessary
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[eddie] Oh my...
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aaronpk Yeah unfortunately HTTP headers aren't just key: val
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[eddie] That surprising considering I was just working with HTTP Link headers in both Swift and JavaScript lol
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[eddie] Yeah, that would definitely make HTTP headers a lot nicer
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aaronpk I guess it's the Link header specifically too
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[eddie] Yeah that’s what it looks like
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aaronpk cause it has the syntax for rel attributes, not to mention relative URLs vs absolute URLs
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aaronpk i wrote a whole bunch of test cases for Link headers in webmention.rocks
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[eddie] Lol uh oh. That’s not good to hear. I was pretty confident in my Swift and Javascript code on this. Buuuuuut.. now I’m not so sure haha
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[eddie] “Whole bunch of test cases” sounds like “dragons be here”
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swentel yeah, it was painful to parse those in Indigenous too :/
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snarfed Link headers ain't no conneg, but they're not exactly easy either
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[eddie] I do know I didn’t add relative url support to my website login so people that use relative endpoints can login and see private posts
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[eddie] So I’ll have to fix that
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aaronpk I have a bunch of tests in the php library for link header parsing too if you want to copy those for yours
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[eddie] Yeah, that's probably a good idea. This one? https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php
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Loqi [indieweb] link-rel-parser-php: Parse HTTP `Link` rel headers into a structured format
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@jgmac1106 I am trying to just add "u-in-reply-to" got to here: https://forum.getkirby.com/t/how-do-i-add-a-class-when-calling-kirbytext/5283/5 walking away for the day from my @getkirby experiment. Will get back to trying webmention plugins tomorrow. I am thinking I should make a snippet for reply urls since I want… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/06/17/i-am-trying-to-just-add-u-in-reply-to (twitter.com/_/status/1140633362748661760)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Gonna take me a hot minute but if I can get the beta webmention plugin working by Summit I will be pretty stoked. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/dzFQ3) (twitter.com/_/status/1140634706922344448)
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aaronpk [eddie]: yeah that's the one
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[eddie] :thumbsup:
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[jgmac1106] looks like I am not only one getting accidentally flagged by Twitter: https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1139900638647599105
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aaronpk hahaha wow
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Loqi rofl
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aaronpk also I can't believe twitter reviewed that account and allowed it
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aaronpk since it's a clear violation of their ToS
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aaronpk copying content out of twitter and displaying it without the twitter embed code
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[jgmac1106] the curtains will soon close on all....
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aaronpk I wonder how long until twitter buys that site and turns it into their own blogging platform
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[jgmac1106] it worked so well converting an h-entry
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[jgmac1106] they will wait for the Medium fire sale and scoop them up for pennies on the dollar
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[jgmac1106] i dig on write.as and it's ActivityPub model as kind of what Medium and Twitter could have done, maybe they will in seventeen pivots from now, if the runway last that long
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sebsel TIL: I should not use http_build_query() but json_encode() for the response of my IndieAuth endpoint.
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sebsel most servers are fine with it though.
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sebsel but: [eddie], it worked, I saw the post :D
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sebsel [eddie]++
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Loqi [eddie] has 39 karma in this channel over the last year (101 in all channels)
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sebsel !tell [eddie] I might have caused some 500s, and you should probably not display your error messages, but it helped me debug my IndieAuth endpoint, so thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk yeah we've been moving away from form-encoded so maintain OAuth compatibility
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aaronpk s/so/to
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sebsel ahh, makes sense. My endpoint predates the spec at indieauth.spec.indieweb.org
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GWG !tell [eddie] Commented on your visibility comment
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] sebsel: Yay!! Glad it worked! Yeah, I’ll probably transition that to show something else when it errors, not sure exactly how I want to handle it though yet lol
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Loqi 😄
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[eddie] GWG cool!
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GWG [eddie]: I may implement such a setting.
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[eddie] Nice, that would be awesome. I definitely like that middle of the road option for stuff that you don’t want PUBLIC but don’t feel particularly nervous about the audience
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[eddie] The one tricky thing is how should one treat a reply to a protected post? Lol
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[eddie] If I have a protected post, it shows it to anyone I don’t blocklist. But if GWG replies he doesn’t know my blocklist
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[eddie] This I think you shouldn’t respond to a protected post with a protected post
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GWG [eddie]: How does a user know it is protected?
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[eddie] I think as readers integrate, you’ll probably show something like p-visibility so readers can know that and alert the user
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[eddie] Besides readers you just have to expect the website UI to tell you
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[eddie] This I need to make my “protected” text larger and more prominent
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@jgmac1106 Proud to announce @MarquisLock will be joining @ReVIEWTalentFS!! Together we will create UI for our #IndieWeb course templates and a webmention badging platform using my new fav CMS @getkirby Will be a journey for us both as we use the opportunity to… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/06/17/proud-to-announce-marquislock-will-be-joining (twitter.com/_/status/1140676033391321089)
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[eddie] s/this/thus
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GWG [eddie]: I also wanted to implement WWW-Authenticate
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GWG And set up for IndieAuth supporting that
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snarfed hi jacky! friendly weekly/monthly nudge to use u-url in your webmention receiver instead of source URL. :P that would turn the ugly brid-gy.appspot.com and fed.brid.gy URLs on eg https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/9a0a2000-ed6f-462b-9946-1fe349134dc0#mentions_like into nice twitter and mastodon.social links.
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[rem] Hey, I'm officially releasing this tomorrow, but wanted to get some fresh eyes on it before. https://webmention.app
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[rem] I've been working on edge cases and documentation to try to make it simple to use.
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[rem] I'd appreciate any feedback or issues you might spot (I've found one where there's missing space around a bit of text in the "getting started" section). Thanks!
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snarfed rem++
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Loqi rem has 1 karma over the last year
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snarfed bug report: when i enter http://www.indiemap.org/ , it says "Cannot read property 'parent' of undefined"
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[jgmac1106] Do parsers ignore duplicate h-cards or should that be avoided. meaning if I put an h-card in my footer and use <a class="u-author" href="/">Me</a> in a post
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[jgmac1106] would it be bad if on my Articles for example I wanted to put my h-card in an aside? Do I need to write something so the h-card get removes from the footer?
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[rem] [snarfed] thank you! Will fix before the release. I've got tests but there's always these new case I keep bumping into 👍
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snarfed unittests++
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Loqi unittests has 4 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] I like how you wrote the how to based on the self efficacy question
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[jgmac1106] rem++
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Loqi rem has 2 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove [jgmac1106], parsers won't ignore them, no. If you have p-author h-card in the h-entry then typical consumers (not parsers) are going to use that as the author, ignoring the footer h-card.
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gRegorLove The parsed result is going to include both of them, though. Parsers don't get into de-duplication
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gRegorLove [rem]++ nice work on webmention.app
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Loqi [rem] has 3 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove [rem] I tried test a URL with https://gregorlove.com/2019/06/jealous/ and it didn't find Tantek's webmention endpoint
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Jealous!
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gRegorLove Error message "No webmentions found on 1 discovered entries
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gRegorLove " might be better as "webmention endpoint"?
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jacky that getting started bit on https://webmention.app
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jacky [rem]++
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Loqi [rem] has 4 karma over the last year
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jacky do you collect information about that? tbh, that kind of info might be helpful for us to build tools for others or to optimize for what's been more "popular"
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jacky snarfed: I'll work on that! Will have to reprocess a _lot_ of webmentions for that (I don't store the whole mf2 object when I save my webmentions)
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snarfed oof heh ok
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snarfed your pages are already up at the top of bridgy and bridgy fed regularly, many requested hundreds to thousands of times per day 😂
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snarfed eg a couple fro bridgy fed currently requested every ~2m. maybe by aperture?
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jacky wait really? sheesh
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gRegorLove In monocle when I click the image in jacky's post https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/7c5ef31b-36b4-4304-869f-258cfc6f4477, I get garbled characters in the popover instead of an image
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jacky gRegorLove: this is an eternal issue I haven't figured out yet - GIFs get wrecked by my site :(
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gRegorLove It shows ok on your site for me, and in monocle. It's only when I click it, hm.
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@sebdedeyne ↩️ Right now I’m working on implementing webmentions. Whenever someone replies to one of my posts on Twitter, A lambda function will pick up the reply and commit a json representation to the project’s GitHub repository. (twitter.com/_/status/1140719180620161024)
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@sebdedeyne ↩️ Never heard of webmentions? @alistapart has a very detailed overview of what they are https://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet/ (twitter.com/_/status/1140719185779154944)
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[jgmac1106] gRegorLove thanks so much
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[eddie] Building out IndieWebKit in Swift and watching it pass more and more tests makes me excited for when I actually get to build out the apps, because I think IndieWebKit is going to make it super easy for me (and anyone else) to use IndieAuth, Micropub and Microsub in apps on Apple's platform
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jacky [eddie]++
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Loqi [eddie] has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (100 in all channels)
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jacky that makes me wonder if there's the same for android :eyes:
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jacky what is Android
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Loqi Android is an open source operating system for mobile devices (AOSP) combined with a set of proprietary cloud services provided by Google, which some use to post to their IndieWeb sites https://indieweb.org/Android
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jacky wasn't expecting that tbh
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GWG [eddie]: Reading your comments again
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GWG [eddie]: Would you want private to be 401 or 404?
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gRegorLove what is IndieWebKit
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWebKit" yet. Would you like to create it?_A (Or just say "IndieWebKit is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] Jacky you know how you get the title of ambient music in the lock screen? Love to figure out how to make that a listen post
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jacky on Android?
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[eddie] GWG, I think it’s up to the server. But 401 is the “right” way
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[eddie] But there’s nothing wrong with 404
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GWG If you want Auto Auth
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snarfed 404 can be better for privacy/security, it avoids leaking that a post exists, which can matter if the URL itself is revealing
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snarfed may not matter though
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jacky that's the "security by obscurity" angle, no?
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jacky [jgmac1106]: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.adam.aslfms/ does that - not sure exactly how but the sources are available
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GWG snarfed, so I need a different categorization for each
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[eddie] snarfed: I agree if your URLs matter, 404 can help with security. Mine are just the date and an index so, that doesn’t do much for info
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jacky threat-modeling++
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Loqi threat-modeling has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG I just don't want to change the behavior of WordPress too much
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[eddie] IndieWebKit is a Swift library that provides client APIs for interacting with IndieAuth, Micropub, and Microsub from apps in the Apple ecosystem.
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[eddie] Darn, lol too late
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snarfed jacky: securing content is different from securing code. keeping code (etc) secret isn't a great way to secure it. keeping content secret is different, and often ok/necessary.
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[eddie] What is IndieWebKit?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWebKit" yet. Would you like to create it?_B (Or just say "IndieWebKit is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] IndieWebKit is a Swift library that provides client APIs for interacting with IndieAuth, Micropub, and Microsub from apps in the Apple ecosystem.
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Loqi ok
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jacky snarfed: agreed!
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[eddie] IndieWebKit << https://github.com/EdwardHinkle/IndieWebKit
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/EdwardHinkle/IndieWebKit" to a brand new "See Also" section of /IndieWebKit https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=62581&oldid=62579