#dev 2019-06-28

2019-06-28 UTC
KartikPrabhu, dougbeal|imac, [kimberlyhirsh] and Valium[m]2 joined the channel
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GWG https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/18
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Loqi [dshanske] #18 Discussion of Status for Proposed Properties watch, read, and listen
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GWG I think I am rambling
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[tantek] GWG there are interesting points raised, and I'm not sure whether to discuss here in dev or in #microformats because the issues get to the heart of well designed minimal vocabulary development
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GWG Curious thoughts regardless
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[tantek] will start here, focused on indieweb use-case and see if that yields any insights
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GWG I am looking at Indiepaper
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GWG Thinking about read later implications
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[tantek] the challenges are broader than "just" status, and github issues are not well designed for higher level design discussions (github issues are good for fine grained issues, but solving that way can result in lack of higher level coherency)
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[tantek] conceptually there are at least three overlapping sets of use-cases here which make it challenging to disentangle
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GWG No brainstorming on read later
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[tantek] 1. productivity use-cases (which I know [jgmac1106] is eager to somehow figure out / use), like you're on to-do list, next-actions, completed actions, perhaps some forms of personal project management in general
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[tantek] 2. consuming media, reading/watching/listening to books/video/audio of various sorts, whether starting, in-progress / partial progress, or completion
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[tantek] 3. consuming sustenance, whether eat/food, drink, etc.
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[tantek] 4. possibly overlapping with passive experience use-cases such as /sleep as well. How is a two hour nap post different than a two hour watched a movie post?
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[tantek] 5. checkins - prior art, Swarm has the ability to check-in to a movie theater and choose the movie you are there to watch.
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GWG Someone posts naps?
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[tantek] overall point being: separate vocabulary for each and every one of those will likely result in unnecessary bloat of property terms, many of which will look a lot like each other, and when you have many things which are similar it just presents confusion to new people. Why do AAA and AAB seem to specify the same thing just for different specific experiences?
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[tantek] etc.
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[tantek] GWG, yes. naps are a form of /sleep
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[tantek] There is also interactions with products and services
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[tantek] and purchases - people do have purchase posts e.g. rhiaro
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[tantek] In some ticketing apps (flights, movies) one of the options is to add it to your calendar
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[tantek] perhaps that's another
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GWG Yes, with you so far
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[tantek] 6. travel - when you "experience" a flight, train, subway ride, that's similar to having watched a movie, with start and end times etc., but with likely different start and end locations
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[tantek] and that made me think of one more, amusement park rides!
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[tantek] 7. amusement park attractions / rides. whether going on a roller coaster which has the same start/end location, yet apparent start/end times (perhaps fixed / expected duration?), or on a park-themed form of transport like Disney's Monorail (which may or may not be same start/end location), these seem to resemble /travel posts yet be somewhat different (perhaps in intent?)
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GWG No matter how long you travel, you end up in the same place
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[tantek] other amusement park rides are more like a "movie" in that you stay in literally the same place and experience something "around" you (maybe 3D or nD with various other effects like mist and smoke)
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[tantek] GWG, "same place" relative to earth-bound coordinates at least.
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GWG Yes
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[tantek] in practice, you are never ever in the same place due to galactic orbiting
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[jgmac1106] not sure I even care about microformats for productivity beyond maybe datetime on a strikethrough when task is completed
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] is watching a movie a task that is completed?
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[tantek] how about taking a flight?
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[jgmac1106] for status of media posts for now happy to use p-category since I do not display or consume this status in any special way
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[tantek] p-category is good for prototyping so go ahead
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[tantek] tags / hashtags in general are good for prototyping
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[tantek] but they are not the basis of interop nor formal publishing/consuming specification
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GWG For me, I would want to know if someone actually did something or just wanted to
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GWG That sentiment is important to me in consumption
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[tantek] so my point is that all this media related posts discussion spans everything from productivity posts, to eating, to travel, to amusement park rides
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[tantek] what is a want
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Loqi want is a rare post type on the indieweb, where the author posts something (acquisition) or experience (book to read, movie to watch, venue to checkin, food/dish they'd like to try) they want get or do https://indieweb.org/want
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GWG Yes
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[jgmac1106] I get that and I think folks want to think on status of media post types, but yes if those same future, start, finished properties could work on an h-event
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[tantek] GWG, as previously brainstormed, /want is a very different kind of post
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[jgmac1106] Hey wait...what is wrong with dt-start and dt-finished?
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[tantek] orthogonal to media, or stuff etc.
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] what's wrong is vocab-first design
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GWG Back to my original thought that these proposed properties reflect completion, not desire
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[jgmac1106] https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/How-do-I-set-the-date-finished-or-date-started-for-a-book-in-the-iOS-app-1555343058101
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[tantek] whereas what's right (or at least better) is understanding / documenting use-cases first from purely a user perspective (why do you want to publish? what would a consuming application do that is special?) and then analysis of related use-cases (noting that my 1-7 above), and only after some reasonable modeling of that, perhaps based on prototypes, discussing how the plumbing (e.g. vocab) *might* work
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[tantek] what is desire
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "desire" yet. Would you like to create it?_d (Or just say "desire is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] desire is /want
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Loqi ok
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gRegorLove ooh, good discussion.
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GWG Not sure where to document. I started with watch, read, and listen and we got much bigger
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gRegorLove "what would a consuming application do that is special?" is a good phrasing of what I was looking for in that github issue.
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GWG Help others with discovery
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gRegorLove I understand my own desire to post "want to read..., reading..., finished reading" posts, and how I might filter those locally, but that doesn't strictly require more than a tag since it's just local.
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GWG I display webmentions of listens on my podcasts.
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gRegorLove But I'm not clear what the consuming application use case would be. I should document prior art there.
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[jgmac1106] dt-start, dt-end I think would work for almost all the use cases tantek pointed out above...the want to me doesn't fit as it is not time bound....dt-future or something
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gRegorLove "help others with discovery" is really broad, though.
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GWG I want to get recommendations and not everyone reviews
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[tantek] nope, discovery doesn't cut it. search and tags are good enough for discovery in general no matter the kind of post
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[tantek] "what would a consuming application do that is **special**?"
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[tantek] discovery is not special
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[tantek] neither is displaying webmentions
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[tantek] these apply to all kinds of posts
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[tantek] you need to come up with a consuming use-case that is special to that particular kind of post. if you can't, that's a good indicator that you really should not put in the effort to design any sort of plumbing for that kind of post
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[tantek] and "make it pretty differently" doesn't count either since you can do that yourself with your own class names and CSS
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[jgmac1106] n books read, most books read in x month, display what books are on muy wishliost
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[tantek] e.g. based on tags/hashtags etc.
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gRegorLove GWG: sticking with the /read example, you could build those recommendations by parsing the read-of. The status portion wouldn't be necessary, right?
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GWG Again, can be done internally
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[tantek] what is a book
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Loqi A book is a written work typically longer than an article, on the indieweb, there are examples of publishing whole books on IndieWeb sites, and publishing lists of books https://indieweb.org/book
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gRegorLove Presuming `read-of` remains the property name. That's the current experimental name.
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] why distinguish n books read vs n books/articles/posts/notes read?
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GWG Gregorlove, correct. It was trying to address your debate on the matter for indiebookclub.biz
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[tantek] where do you draw the line and why?
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GWG Which line?
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GWG The type of media?
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[tantek] or length
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[jgmac1106] because I want, [chrisaldrich] doesn't, and when I teach I used the read post as a way to track student progress
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[tantek] what's the difference between a book and a PDF of a book, and a PDF of a long article?
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[tantek] students are often asked to read each of those
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[tantek] what if you have the option between reading a book and watching the movie version of a book (not hypothetical, actually had this option in a couple of highschool and college classes)
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GWG So, your consumption case is tracking student progress.
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[jgmac1106] I think there is a ton of prior art of people tracking their bookshelves, doing goodreads, etc..wellI I am gona step out trying to see if I can publish a checkin post before my layover is over
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[tantek] if there's a ton of prior art, it can/should be documented on /book or /library etc.
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[tantek] what is a library
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[jgmac1106] in that one instance, yes, but many people like tracking books, and moviews
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Loqi A library in this context typically refers to a software library, and sometimes to a physical library, like a personal library that an independent may use to collect books they have read https://indieweb.org/library
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[jgmac1106] What is bookshelf?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bookshelf" yet. Would you like to create it?_e (Or just say "bookshelf is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is read?
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Loqi To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts or other documents; on the IndieWeb, a read post expresses that something has been read, like a book or section thereof https://indieweb.org/read
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[tantek] one way to document consuming use-cases is to document *existing* consuming use-cases that do something *special to that kin of "post"* and document that special thing with *screenshots*
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[jgmac1106] https://books-api.glitch.me/
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[tantek] kind* of post
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[tantek] anyway without documenting these use-cases in a persistent organized form (see /wikify) then your use-case conversations will just keep going round and around without making any progress towards understanding the problem(s) better
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GWG I think I have gotten confused about what the problem is now. Or I have more problems.
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GWG But I can cope with that
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[jgmac1106] 99 problems but a blog ain't one
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[tantek] GWG, yes that was the point
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[tantek] Into the multi-use-case-verse
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[jgmac1106] I really don't think it is that confusing, people want to mark read, watch, and listen posts with todo, started, and finished as folks are used to tracking this in GoodReads, Plex, and trak.tv
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GWG I just wanted to make watch a proposed property due usage...how did I end up here?
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[jgmac1106] I think by plane
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[tantek] ever-expanding, e.g. /sleep is a type of /metrics post which is a form of passive /exercise that happens to be stationery unless you're on a sleeper car on a train or plane in which case your sleep has different start and end locations
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GWG Are we getting into h-measure now?
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[tantek] and speaking of /exercise that overlaps with /travel as well e.g. a /run /bicycle or even /walk post is both a form of travel and exercise
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[tantek] or you could exercise on a stationery bicycle like a Peloton and watch a movie while doing so
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[jgmac1106] got close: http://testkirby.jgregorymcverry.com/checkin/o-hare
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[jgmac1106] except for everything important...
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[tantek] is that really two different posts or post types? or different attribute of one post / activity?
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gRegorLove [jgmac1106], marking posts with those things doesn't necessarily require a special mf2 property, though. We're looking for special consuming use-cases and examples of them in the wild to document it first... then maybe a new property might come out of that.
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[tantek] such real world cases is what tends to drive the design towards multiple properties to represent different aspects, that may (or may not) make sense when combined, since some combinations do already pre-exist, and trying to come up with a discrete taxonomy that attempts to separate them (especially hierarchically) ignores the messiness of actual human actions
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[jgmac1106] gRegorLove you are a goodreads user, how do the three choices appear there?
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[jgmac1106] What is watch?
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Loqi A watch is a semi-passive type of post used to publish that you have watched a video (movie, TV, film), or a live show (theater, concert) https://indieweb.org/watch
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gRegorLove I think the more appropriate question is: how are applications consuming those Goodreads statuses? (There aren't any that I'm aware of)
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gRegorLove I've documented some (sans sreenshots) here: https://indieweb.org/Goodreads#Features
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gRegorLove They have "shelves" that map to what I've been calling "status". Defaults are read, currently reading, to-read
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gRegorLove We can definitely discuss more this weekend.
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GWG Looking forward to it
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[jgmac1106] switching to mapbox, having the worst luck with Nominatim address look up
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[Michael_Beckwit Goodreads’ api leaves a lot to be desired
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gRegorLove Indeed
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@tw2113 Fresh out of the box: Hello Webmentions! https://michaelbox.net/2019/06/hello-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/1144432154673201153)
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GWG [jgmac1106]: What are you trying to get datawise?
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[tantek] I personally have something ok between a read and bookmark use-case - I log (privately) when I’ve skimmed an article (URL)
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[jgmac1106] just load the map. I can put in the exact address and nomatim will tell me I need extra information..the only way to get "extra" information is just strip everything down to Chicago, IL
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[jgmac1106] think I will try mapbox, no way am i typing in every address for a checkin...me building a checkin was a stretch goal anyway since I got stuck in airport
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GWG [tantek]: Owning my to read list is an itch of mine
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GWG I am still unsure of how to post that
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[jgmac1106] <p>sci-fi I want to read:</p><dl><dt>book</dt><dd>the story of...</dd></dl>
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[jgmac1106] Or just use <ul>
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GWG Yes, but I would want to be able to transition from to read to read
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GWG Is that an update, another post, change in markup?
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[jgmac1106] Have another <ul> for finished (avoiding the heteronym read and read) and just move a book from one shelf to another
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[tantek] Feels like a distinct post
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GWG Distinct post?
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[snarfed] "what do consumers need to do that's special?" is a great q. i feel like i fully own my to-read, in progress, and read list, but it has zero mf2, and I'm totally fine with that, since I'm the only consumer.
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[snarfed] https://snarfed.org/books
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GWG snarfed, you are the manual till it hurts guy
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GWG I am the lazy one
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[snarfed] you want way more than me. that doesn't seem lazy, that seems ambitious!
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GWG I may never get there
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GWG I have a lot of dreams
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GWG I credited you in an issue
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[tantek] Snarfed, doing it all yourself means no need for interop, so no need for explicit format / markup
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[snarfed] right! not even distinct posts, just constantly edit the same evergreen one
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[tantek] Sure! Sounds like a personal wiki page :)
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[snarfed] definitely
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[tantek] Gwg distinct posts rather than updating a want into a have/done
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[snarfed] drawback is, my experience contributes roughly zero to these kinds of conversations :P
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[tantek] snarfed not true! We can study the UX or your website as possible inspiration for broader usecases
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GWG [snarfed]: I am hoping to take a shortcut in the project you want done
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[tantek] *of your
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[snarfed] maybe! overly generous, but I'll take it
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[snarfed] GWG you're always so circumspect 😁
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[snarfed] shortcuts++ regardless!
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Loqi shortcuts has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG I want to use a stripped down version of Parse This so I don't have to maintain multiple things that do the same thing
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[snarfed] yup i know that's been your big itch for a while now
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GWG Same in Micropub
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GWG I maintain multiple IndieAuth implementations
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GWG That is part of my merger plans
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GWG Same reason Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions are going to merge someday
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GWG I would merge more if it made sense
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[Michael_Beckwit the two i installed tonight
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GWG Haven't been updated in a bit
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@jackysee http://webmention.app https://webmention.app/ (twitter.com/_/status/1144488475736936448)
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@sebdedeyne ✒️ Adding webmentions to my blog https://sebastiandedeyne.com/adding-webmentions-to-my-blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/1144493898007367680)
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[tantek] Really trying to resist the trap of attempting a grand theory of human intention, action, and experience to model all the variants of kinds of posts we discussed earlier.
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[tantek] I warned [schmarty] this might happen
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GWG Don't fight it?
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[jgmac1106] Is there a grand theory post type yet? Sure gwg has one in post kinds
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[jgmac1106] gwg seeing the trend of many people splitting webmentions into two. Sending and receiving
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cweiske implementing sending was much easier for me
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Loqi cweiske: [eddie] left you a message 6 days, 15 hours ago: regarding multiple micropub endpoints, there are a couple things. Omnibear *could* add multiple endpoint support. You could also add multiple "destinations" into your endpoint, and one destination could forward it somewhere else. I'm not sure if Omnibear support destinations, but again, that could be requested.
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cweiske I still don't display them
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[kevinmarks786] Also you can combine things - I listen to podcasts while walking the dogs, others catch pokemons, people watch films on planes.
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sknebel yeah, I don't think treating sending/receiving differently is a "trend" - since they share little to no functionality, it's how it's mostly done
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[jgmac1106] Makes sense skenbel
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sknebel (on the other hand, the "user feature" "webmention support" often means both, so distributing it as one thing, e.g. as a plugin, still can make sense (and e.g. allow to turn receiving off), even if the underlying code is distinct
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[jgmac1106] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/06/gmails-api-lockdown-will-kill-some-third-party-app-access-starting-july-15/
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[tantek] sknebel, I have mixed feelings about calling "webmention support" a "user feature". It does help awareness of an open W3C standard that users should make sure their tools & services support, yet it doesn't speak to how the user benefits
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[jgarber] [tantek] I’m biased, but I’d encourage you to dabble. 😄
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jgmac1106[m] jgarber I run a company with a overly complex app running on Ruby... Keep meaning to get around to it
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jgmac1106[m] Learning, not reviewing, nothi g like owning a vegan sausage factory and having no idea how it is made
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[tantek] I *think* the user feature(s) is/are something like: "posting responses" (user version of "sending webmentions support", and something like "peer to peer comments" ("receiving webmentions and displaying them support")
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[tantek] wonders if he should give-in and learn enough ruby to at least do code reviews
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[jgarber] [jgmac1106] Thanks!
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[jgarber] [jgmac1106] Ahh yes, the ol’ Ruby monolith. 😬
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[jgmac1106] Random idea.. If folks did have preferred pronouns in their h-card coukd you use self identified gender to weight discovery in feeds... Show me posts from thpse who self identify by....
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[jgarber] Good morning/afternoon/evening, IndieWeb!
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[jgarber] https://github.com/indieweb/webmention-client-ruby/pull/20
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[jgarber] Took me forever to get around to this PR, but if there are any Rubyists with some spare time… Would you mind giving a look at this PR on the webmention-client-ruby gem? I’d be most grateful for your constructive feedback.
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Loqi [jgarber623] #20 Refactor Webmention Client
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sknebel [tantek]: that's why I choose the "" around it - and in practice, right now, its probably protocol-specific... E.g. an activitypub plugin for some CMS could probably also provide P2P commenting
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[Jamey_Sharp] HTML question: I have something that almost works entirely without JavaScript and I'm trying to eliminate the last bit. Is there any way, without using JavaScript, to get a click event to set the `src` attribute of an `iframe`? Using `<a target="name of iframe">` will navigate the iframe the same way that setting `src` would, but it doesn't actually change the value of `src`. 😢
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[tantek] Snarfed, doing it all yourself means no need for interop, so no need for explicit format / markup
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[schmarty] [Jamey_Sharp] yes! https://stackoverflow.com/a/740827
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[schmarty] though i see that is 2009!!!
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[Jamey_Sharp] no, that works in the sense that the link target opens in the iframe, but it doesn't do what I need because the `iframe src` attribute doesn't change.
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[schmarty] oh, that's interesting! do you have some CSS triggering off that src value?
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[Jamey_Sharp] yup!
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[Jamey_Sharp] I was using hidden radio buttons and `<label for>` to handle the interactivity but I _also_ need to change which page is loaded in an `iframe`. I handled that by loading _all_ the pages in separate iframes and using CSS to make only one of them visible, but then browsers want to load all those pages ASAP, which is Not Ideal
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[Jamey_Sharp] I've deployed a version of http://reader.minilop.net which doesn't make your browser load all post contents up front, but does require a tiny bit of javascript. With javascript off, it still kinda works but the navigation doesn't update to reflect which post you're reading. Something to keep playing with...
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[tantek] sknebel agreed, on the quotes and the specific example.
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@AaronGustafson ↩️ I’m sure it’s not a shocker given my focus, but I went with a blog post as it’s more interesting. JS-only features: 1. Read aloud 2. Save offline 3. Navigation highlight (which I need to switch to `aria-current`) 4. Webmention updates on load 5. Live webmention streaming (twitter.com/_/status/1144744006661758976)
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@AaronGustafson ↩️ All features are, of course, gated by feature availability, so it’s considerably more nuanced: * Read aloud requires SpeechSynthesis * Save offline requires Cache API * Webmention updates requires `template` & `array.filter()` * Webmention streaming requires WebSockets * etc. (twitter.com/_/status/1144744905715007488)
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@chipotlecoyote ↩️ Local font hosting (that's the really easy one). Local accounts, maybe w/IndieAuth. GoAccess for analytics initially, moving to Fathom, maybe, when usage justified it. (twitter.com/_/status/1144753514863742976)
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