#dev 2019-08-08

2019-08-08 UTC
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GWG IndieAuth
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GWG Something about a 500 error
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[xavierroy] [grantcodes] Did you enable publishing from ownyourtrakt?
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[grantcodes] I did but it's really not ready yet...
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[xavierroy] I had a couple of posts show up in my site
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[xavierroy] wanted to check if it was from there or from ifttt
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[prtksxna] BTW [xavierroy] Your website has been throwing a WP error for me
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[xavierroy] Been that way for a couple of days. been trying to debug amidst work
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[prtksxna] nods
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[grantcodes] You should be able to tell if they were from ownyourtrakt via the properties if you're able to see them. In particular there is a custom `trakt` property
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Loqi I agree
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[Rose] Where can I find and test OwnYourTrakt?
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[Rose] And is it going to go insane if I connect it to my live site? 😛
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[xavierroy] Will check that once I'm back at my computer
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[xavierroy] It picked up only shows watched yesterday so [Rose] unless you watched a lot of shows over the past ten hours, it won't
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[Rose] I watched something about 12 hours ago
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[Rose] But I presume if I set it up now then it could capture things in the future?
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[xavierroy] https://ownyourtrakt.glitch.me/
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[Rose] Interesting, looks like my Trakt account stopped getting my watches
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[Rose] I'll have to debug that when I get home
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[xavierroy] Try adding the watch manually at trakt to check
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[Rose] I am supposed to be working, so debugging will happen tonight 😄
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[grantcodes] I wouldn't recommend a live site with it
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[grantcodes] Mainly because I think I'll need to change how it works and you'll end up with duplicates (unless your site supports micropub queries)
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[grantcodes] Currently I set the initial limit to 100 days of history. But the new method I am working on will get *everything*
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[grantcodes] I'm planning on adding date options when you sign up, to choose how much history you want
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[xavierroy] Also a possibility for categories when posting 🙂
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[grantcodes] Rose said that too
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[grantcodes] Only problem is I think different people would want different categories, so that needs to be thought out a bit
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[Rose] I can see wanting categories for TV vs Film, and also one category (additionally) for everything.
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[Rose] Plus my previous possible suggestion of the name of a TV Show as a category
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[xavierroy] It would be up to me to decide which category I want these to stay in. I like how ownyourswarm does categories
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[xavierroy] I use Trakt for tv and Letterboxd for movies. So my usecase would be to put a Television category for OYT
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GWG Did we figure out when Vouch discussion was, [Rose]]
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[Rose] From now on?
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[Rose] Or whenever people are around to do it?
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GWG I will be working for a bit
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GWG But I always read the scroll up
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GWG Curious the thoughts you've been having
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Zegnat New thoughts about Vouch?
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[Rose] Well, I was trying to remember the last state of things
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[Rose] And was thinking back to the "I have a list of people I vouch for", which gave me a thought: what about a list of people I don't vouch for? Then if for some reason someone has caused a problem on my site I can have then on the unvouch list, and your site can decide if enough of the vouch sources you check explicitly say they do not vouch for a person then you can handle that
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GWG I think we always end up in the approve/deny list area
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GWG Did we record the Berlin conversation?
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[Rose] We do, but what is the current status of vouch?
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[Rose] I think Grant took notes for us?
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GWG Insufficient implementations
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GWG We need a push
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[Rose] So how do we do that?
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[Rose] Would programming a WP plugin help? I could take a stab at that this weekend
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[Rose] I feel like the current "linking to" suggestion in the wiki is problematic, both because then you have to scan your entire back catalogue of posts, and also because linking isn't always positive.
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Zegnat The biggest hurdle in automation is with the webmention sender. This is true by design, a spammer should have to spent extra work. It is hard to find out 1) what domains does the receiver trust as voucher, and 2) which of those domains have a link to the sender and can be used as a vouch.
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[Rose] Which makes sense. But at the same time what makes it difficult for the spammer also makes it difficult for the real user
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Zegnat Yes
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[Rose] I had in my head that the approve/deny lists would require some kind of auth/approval. But any actual details are currently beyond me
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Zegnat Basically I as a user look through my received webmentions. Then I can go find one from GWG, and if I think you trust GWG to be a voucher, I then add the post on GWGs site to my webmention to you.
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Zegnat Of course I have no way of knowing whether you trust GWG to vouch for people, but if you do, maybe I have now given myself a legup in your moderation queue
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[Rose] I feel that it would be good for me to be able to find out who vouches for me
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Zegnat Everyone who has ever linked to you, vouches for you. So you just need to check your received webmentions for a list.
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GWG [Rose]: WordPress has a very basic Vouch implementation for receiving, but none for sending
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GWG I thought of building a vouch list publicly, but someone made me think sharing it is possibly a problem
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Zegnat GWG, you could do a really simple sending implementation too: take the last webmention you received (possibly blacklist a few domains, like bridgy), and add that as a vouch value.
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Zegnat If I remember the ins and outs of /Vouch correctly, that should be a valid vouch value.
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[jgmac1106] so then does /vouch measure the strength of a "vouch" by number of links....like zegnat and gwg must be real tight because there vouch score is X?
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Zegnat No
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[jgmac1106] their* too early for homophone mistakes already..okay...thx
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[jgmac1106] just binary, vouched or unvouched'
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Zegnat Yep
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Zegnat Vouch also does not carry any implied relationship other than “this domain that you may know has a link to me”
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[aaronpk] I'm super on the fence about opening up client registration on indielogin.com. I need to find a way to do it where everyone doesn't just use it as the default
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[jgmac1106] you charge
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Zegnat ^ +1
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[aaronpk] Heh
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[aaronpk] True
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Zegnat I feel like you wouldn’t be the first omni-auth-as-a-service provider to charge either.
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[jgmac1106] internet archive doesn't keep the date of files added in the open graph info: view-source:https://archive.org/details/2toPonder/2toPonderSe02Ep02.m4a
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[jgmac1106] need to search my blog for the dates....
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[aaronpk] I can think of at least one other service that charges to handle user login for apps 😉
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[jgmac1106] this is open source and free here is the documentation, you want no hassle log-in...ha ha
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Zegnat [jgmac1106]: doesn’t https://archive.org/download/2toPonder show dates on all the files..?
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[jgmac1106] as far as i can tell just the original upload date
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Zegnat And the upload date is not when the file was added to the collection? Hmm
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[jgmac1106] I am searching I found a page of history but it will take deciphering...but when you add a file to an item only the original creation date is available
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[jgmac1106] hopefully then you are legally allowed to charge for an app that handles user logins
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jgmac1106 but I know I sent out a tweet I will find it, reason why I added an h-entry on the item page for each show, just an easy place for me to keep a record
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/51wg03gH.jpg
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jgmac1106 best I think I can do on Internet Archive is click through each event in the history: https://archive.org/history/2toPonder
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Zegnat Best might be to use the Internet Archive as an archive, and have a landing page elsewhere ;)
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jgmac1106 got it, derive tasks are uploaded
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jgmac1106 I do…I just got lazy and didn;t add entry at time of uplaod
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[jgarber] > I’m super on the fence about opening up client registration on indielogin.com.
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[jgarber] [aaronpk] I think I know, but what are your concerns?
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[aaronpk] I don't want everyone to rely on it or see it as "the way" to do IndieAuth like what happened with IndieAuth.com
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[aaronpk] see also: /SPOA
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[jgarber] In that it’s what “everyone” uses?
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[jgarber] Hah, right, SPOA. 🙃
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[aaronpk] Yeah and that people think they have to use it in order to use IndieAuth
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[aaronpk] It turns out there's unintended consequences of running free services 🙃
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[jgarber] [aaronpk] What are some practical things that would allay your concerns?
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[tonz] [Zegnat] [Rose] It may be documented somewhere, but what is the problem Vouch is intended to solve? As to judging webmention in the moderation queue I have, the volume is so low that manual is fine, plus having the ability to blacklist / whitelist a domain.
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[Rose] It’s supposed to help automated moderation.
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Zegnat Technology wise Webmentions site in the family of trackbacks and pinbacks, I guess. And both grew to have big spam problems. So Vouch is one idea of trying to prevent that from happening.
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Zegnat There was also an idea of attaching a proof-of-work to the webmentions, with the idea of making it harder to en-masse send out spam mentions
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[tonz] automated moderation is useful above a certain volume, do you have things where that volume is reached? I also ask because I notice that manually approving new incoming links from ‘new’ domains is a discovery mechanism too.
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[tonz] Yes I remember the pingback / trackback spam waves of old.
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[tonz] And my referrer logs are a who’s who of corrupted and malicious domains
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Zegnat Oh, yeah, referrer spam is such a weird concept but still happening
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[tonz] It’s maybe more expensive to halt the process than to just let it run? Referrer spam, I guess it dates back to the time where sites listed their last visitors / referrers straight from the server log. I used to go over referrer logs quite frequently as it was the only discovery tool I had before trackback / Technorati made incoming links easier to discover.
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Zegnat Half a month on a very low-traffic domain let me add almost 70 domains to a referrer blacklist: https://github.com/matomo-org/referrer-spam-blacklist/pull/37
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Loqi [Zegnat] #37 Add half a month of spammers.
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Zegnat I soon after stopped even looking at it, the Whac-A-Mole was too much work
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Zegnat But yeah, back on /Vouch, the idea is that moderation right now is easy enough. But when it reaches trackback/pingback levels of traffic you may want some tools that will help filter out spam.
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[tonz] ok, I see. So the idea is if you link to my site, then you tell me who has linked to you as a way for me to estimate your reputation? That helps me decide to automatically accept you. That’s different from automatically rejecting it though, as a non-vouched site may mean a new connection from a bit farther afield becoming visible to me. E.g. someone I know has started a new blog, her first webmention by neccessity contain no links to anyone who
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[tonz] could be seen as a voucher to me. I’m also wondering if my reading habits could play a role, e.g. published subscriptions. That would allow vouching over 1 more step of separation, which to me seems the most frequent ‘distance’ from bona fide new links come in.
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[tonz] There is of course overlap in what I read and then subsequently link to. mmm. maybe indiereaders could serve a role in creating whitelists that way
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[tonz] anyway, just jumping in without having oriented myself, so never mind.
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Zegnat Yeah, so most of the questions are around how to build these lists of vouchers that you want to give priority. Readers may be a way.
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Zegnat And you are right this helps for automatically accepting, not the other way. But I think that was what we settled on in previous discussions too.
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Zegnat Or if you want to moderate everything yourself, vouching can help do some sort of ordering prioritising. If you get a tonne of webmentions, moderation will be easier if you can first moderate those with a valid vouch parameter.
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jgmac1106 all fixed zegnat… and I added the dt-published dates to the item description on archiv.org https://jgregorymcverry.com/2toPonder.html
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aaronpk hmm maybe I can make a one click deploy to heroku button so ppl can easily spin up their own indielogin
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aaronpk Maybe I can do that plus charge for using my instance
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[jgarber] I’m working on getting my own IndieAuth server off the ground and costs so far are 1) annual domain cost, and 2) $7 per month for Heroku Hobby dyno and Redis add-on.
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[jgarber] ☝ Also will be looking for help stress testing the solution in the near-ish future. 😄
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[grantcodes] That sounds pretty ideal to me aaronpk. Heroku or Docker file to make deploying it as straightforward as possible
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[tantek] [Rose] the opposite of vouching is block lists
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[tantek] I'm glad to see this resurgence in interest in implementing Vouch
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aaronpk [grantcodes]: I know nothing about docker other than it frustrates me any time I try to use it so I may need help with that lol
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[jgarber] [aaronpk] Happy to pitch in on the Docker front, as well, if help is desired.
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shokuninDiscord[ Hey guys
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shokuninDiscord[ So we were literally just thinking this with Gorka and Akshay
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shokuninDiscord[ Right now setting up php and redis and all that looks super not fun
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shokuninDiscord[ The ideal lazy solution from our side would be:
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shokuninDiscord[ 1) use indielogin.com with our client added
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shokuninDiscord[ 2) use a deploy to Heroku button asap
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shokuninDiscord[ But that’s purely from the perspective of being a startup that wants to use this tech and focus on building our product
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shokuninDiscord[ What do you think aaronpk?
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shokuninDiscord[ (Alternatively docker would work)
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jgmac1106 aaronpk what looks wrong here that microcast.club wouldn’t validate the feed: https://jgregorymcverry.com/2toPonder.xml
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[aaronpk] Dunno specifically but this is finding all sorts of issues https://castfeedvalidator.com/?url=https://jgregorymcverry.com/2toPonder.xml
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[aaronpk] Possibly enclosure type is missing?
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jgmac1106 thx was trying to use mf2 and then granary…need to add show length to each one
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jgmac1106 also forgot apple has those weird image dimension rules
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shokuninDiscord[ (btw can you guys see my messages? wanna make sure the bridge is working)
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jgmac1106 yes
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[aaronpk] Sorry yes skokunin
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shokuninDiscord[ We've had issues with some bridges where it'd work fast one way and take hours the other way hahaha
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Loqi rofl
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[aaronpk] Yeah and this is slack -> irc -> matrix -> discord lol
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[snarfed] [jgmac1106] yeah length is a key missing part in granary's rss output. the only way i know of to determine it is to download each file and run a tool like ffmpeg, which is way overkill and not realistic
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[snarfed] open to other ideas!
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sknebel [snarfed]: special mf2 property?
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[snarfed] oh, right [sknebel], sorry, i misspoke. it actually does use the mf2 `dt-duration` property
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[snarfed] i meant to say, it's currently missing length in bytes. which is a bit more realistic since i can usually get it with an HTTP HEAD. still unrealistic though if i have to make eg 10-20 HEAD requests to convert a single h-feed to RSS
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sknebel Ah, right
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jgmac1106 yeah…I will go back to manually adding the dhows, but will add the dt-duration
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[aaronpk] oh interesting yeah that makes sense. I didn't think microcast.club required it but I'm not sure
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[snarfed] huh. now that i'm digging more, i can't find where i got that dt-duration is appropriate for u-video/audio. not seeing it on microformats.org or the wiki
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jgmac1106 https://indieweb.org/podcast
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[snarfed] huh yeah length, not duration. and size
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[snarfed] ok good feature requests for granary rss
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[snarfed] gbut oof no clear standard format for length yet. aaronpk's is integer seconds, gRegorLove's is "PT1H7M59S" (i don't even know what that is)
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jgmac1106 how gRegorLove marked it up: Length: <data class="p-length" value="PT1H7M59S">1h 7m 59s</data><br />
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jgmac1106 schmarty did not include length gRegor marked up size like: (<span class="p-size">62.2 MB</span>)
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[snarfed] oh man and both size implementations are non-standard human-readable, eg 17.43mb or 62.2 MB, not bytes
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[snarfed] sigh yeah
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[snarfed] backs away slowly
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jgmac1106 smart move
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jgmac1106 and why the heck did apple get all the power to say this is what a podcast feed must be
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[snarfed] mmm tech politics
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jgmac1106 a feed without length and size should still work and leave those values blank.grrrr, Granary still gets close enough though so I only have to do touch up
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jgmac1106 snarfed++ for Granary
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Loqi snarfed has 46 karma in this channel over the last year (77 in all channels)
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[snarfed] thanks! filed https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/169
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Loqi [snarfed] #169 convert mf2 length and size properties to RSS duration and length
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[snarfed] ugh, just noticed [kevinmarks]'s and [aaronpk]'s discussion of this yesterday: https://www.businessinsider.com/startup-hyp3r-saving-instagram-users-stories-tracking-locations-2019-8#gpt-post-sai-desktop_in_post_ad-desktop-5d4bb5eed13875.07816990
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[snarfed] tldr, startup abused Instagram's embedded JSON, which is also what ownyourgram and bridgy use to provide IG PESOS and backfeed, respectively
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[snarfed] evidently IG is making changes to prevent it, which may also hurt us. sigh.
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[aaronpk] I'm gonna be real sad if there isn't a solution for us
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[aaronpk] Tho tbh with Shortcuts on iOS it's actually a pretty reasonable flow to post photos directly to my site
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[aaronpk] I usually edit them outside of Instagram anyway
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[snarfed] sounds like the abuse was primarily location data, so i'm :crossed_fingers: they just scrub that, not everything
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[aaronpk] Crossing my fingers!
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[snarfed] or even they just improve their rate limiting. guess we'll see
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[snarfed] ah. "In response to Hyp3r's actions, Instagram has made a change to prevent public location pages from being available to logged-out users."
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[KevinMarks] Apple gets to dictate podcast format by owning the default directory
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shokuninDiscord[ aaronpk did you have a chance to think about the deploy to heroku/docker/ us using the indielogin.com solution btw?
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[aaronpk] are you expecting any kind of significant volume of logins?
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shokuninDiscord[ between 0 and close to 0 for a while 😆
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shokuninDiscord[ we just want to use the .com service at the start to avoid setting it up, but I'd love a one click push to our heroku
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[aaronpk] I think I'd like to make it easy to run on heroku, but what we could do is start you out on the .com and then it'd be great if you wanted to help me test the heroku integration. It'll also be easy to swap out later, literally just changing one url, since it doesn't maintain any account state that needs to be migrated
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shokuninDiscord[ That'd be perfect! It would definitely save us a lot of time
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shokuninDiscord[ Really appreciated
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shokuninDiscord[ cc Gorka Akshay
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shokuninDiscord[ Akshay is looking at the integration, what's a good way to move forward with the client id?
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shokuninDiscord[ For Heroku we can totally help you test the integration, no problem
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[Lewis_Cowles] I noticed the webmention plugin doesn't add the PHP link header, and I suspect it would clobber existing values rather than concatenate as shown in [RFC-5988](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988#page-10)
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[Lewis_Cowles] Is there a PHP run-time setting that needs to be put in place?
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Zegnat [Lewis_Cowles]: doing a quick check of the webmention plugin source, it looks like it does add the header?
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Zegnat [Lewis_Cowles]: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/blob/3.8.11/includes/class-webmention-receiver.php#L836-L843
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[tantek] snarfed, welcome to RFC5545 😂
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[Lewis_Cowles] I've got the same source. I can give an example URL of a test blog post
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[aaronpk] @skokunin I can add your client ID later this afternoon, can you drop a note in that GitHub issue with the URL you want?
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[Lewis_Cowles] 👍
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[Lewis_Cowles] I think it will be PHP pushing out headers too soon as it's using the native function
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Zegnat Maybe. WordPress should be handling that though. Unless another plugin starts outputting too soon. Maybe ask in #indieweb-wordpress ? I do not run the code myself so can’t really say more than confirming there is code that should output the header
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[tantek] re: "why the heck did apple get all the power to say this is what a podcast feed must be" -> power vacuum due to no coherent group actually iterating on the RSS "spec" = biggest player gets to set de facto standards
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[aaronpk] Also why you can't "freeze" specs
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[tantek] that and there's always errat
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[tantek] a 🙂
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shokuninDiscord[ ```@skokunin I can add your client ID later this afternoon, can you drop a note in that GitHub issue with the URL you want?``` Sure thing! Akshay will have the details 😃
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[Lewis_Cowles] I've linked all the parts I've investigated so far
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[Lewis_Cowles] https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/211
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jacky what is micropub
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard (W3C Recommendation) for creating, editing, and deleting posts on websites, like on your own domain, supported by numerous third-party clients and CMSs https://indieweb.org/Micropub
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jacky the more I tinker with the stuff
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jacky the more I'm noticing that having a micropub server that can write and read files to disc is probably a handy tool for new devs trying to roll their own site or build something on top of it
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shokuninDiscord[ yup
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shokuninDiscord[ Would sure love that!
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[snarfed] sounds like nanopub, blotpub, voxpelli's jekyll bridge, etc. https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Servers#CMS_Software
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[grantcodes] Yeah there's quite a few that work with static site generators in the node world already
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[grantcodes] What is indiekit?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/IndieKit
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shokuninDiscord[ Actually, I have a question for people here
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shokuninDiscord[ We're working on an app/service that's like Medium but open
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shokuninDiscord[ basically you write something, it makes a nice post out of it and publishes in on ipfs (so you have a nice permalink)
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shokuninDiscord[ then on top we give the users indieauth and webmentions (so they can comment/like/@ each other)
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shokuninDiscord[ We also want to add nice feed subscription via rss and activitypub afterwards
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shokuninDiscord[ One thing we're looking into right now is finding a nice editor we can use, which would ideally support an open standard like micropub for example
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shokuninDiscord[ I'd love to hear some thoughts on how you'd build this stack, maybe standards we're not considering
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jacky I might be missing something, then. I'm avoiding things that require knowledge of a terminal (aiming to be able to point to a link for someone to start using something)
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jacky Known is one of those solutions (I think there's hosted options)
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[snarfed] no more hosted known, sadly
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[snarfed] shokunin you've seen quill etc, right? https://quill.p3k.io/ . more on https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Clients
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jacky shokuninDiscord[: doesn't the URI change if you edit the page on ipfs?
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jacky s/edit/change
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jacky hm, I think I'm just looking for more micro.blog-esque sites tbh
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shokuninDiscord[ It depends! @jacky
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shokuninDiscord[ We're using IPNS and Textile.io which allow us to have a single link that can then get updated
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shokuninDiscord[ so every time you do a change on your blog post, you can keep the same link
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jacky ah gotcha
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jacky how are y'all handling propagation speeds with IPNS?
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shokuninDiscord[ we're hosting our own gateway and when you write in the editor it pings the gateawy
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shokuninDiscord[ we're hosting our own gateway and when you write in the editor it pings the gateway
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shokuninDiscord[ so it's not really a problem
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jacky ah that's sick
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jacky wishes the docs suggested something like that
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shokuninDiscord[ No one's done that yet
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jacky w.r.t to the AP landscape, it might be easier to have a bridge of sorts that'd translate the actions as expected to your site
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shokuninDiscord[ Textile.io helps do that, and we're the first people to build something like that on top of it
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shokuninDiscord[ Yeah so basically we see it as a nice way to host an indieweb blog, where you have the permanence of ipfs (permalinks + nodes to mirror things)
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[snarfed] https://indieweb.org/bridge_all_the_things
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GWG bridging++
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Loqi bridging has 1 karma over the last year
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shokuninDiscord[ Yea tantek told us about fed.brid.gy yesterday, probably the way to go
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[snarfed] shokunin hearing web sites on ipfs reminds me of https://macwright.org/2019/06/08/ipfs-again.html
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[snarfed] sounds like you all are trying to help!
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shokuninDiscord[ "I won’t use a service" well then XD
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shokuninDiscord[ but yeah basically we're doing a service that deals with all the crap this poor guy's run into, so you can just write and it goes on ipfs, and you also get indieauth and webmentions
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[snarfed] good luck!
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shokuninDiscord[ Did you look at the stack above? Anything you think we can do different or we're missing?
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[snarfed] sounds pretty high level so far, and i don't really know ipfs. we'll be happy to bang on a prototype when you're ready!
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[snarfed] don't worry about including everything, just put together the smallest MVP possible and try it out
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shokuninDiscord[ Sweet
eli_oat joined the channel
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[tantek] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 47 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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aaronpk i suspect this is the first sign on instagram's changes https://travis-ci.org/aaronpk/OwnYourGram/builds/569571574
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aaronpk timezone information is no longer returned in photos
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aaronpk s/on/of
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aaronpk will be fun to watch my tests fail and show exactly what changes they're making
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[snarfed] dun dun DUUUUN 😢
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[snarfed] interesting though, i still see `taken_at_timestamp` in eg https://www.instagram.com/p/B0zpvp8J3un/?__a=1
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aaronpk probably incremental changes
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aaronpk wait huh, that's a unix timestamp
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aaronpk where am i getting the other date format from
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aaronpk i give up i don't know how any of this works
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[snarfed] lol