#dev 2019-08-26

2019-08-26 UTC
qotta_, qotta and JeanDiscord[m] joined the channel
#
@HongPong ↩️ its on Laravel and Vue JS which is way closer to what I know in webdev than mastodon, and i have been trying to follow activitypub stuff for quite a while (and webmentions and so on) so, i'm really pulling for it (twitter.com/_/status/1165800934443761665)
[Michael_Beckwit, [tantek], [vendan], ZapierDiscord[m], gRegorLove and [snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] i may have figured out why bridgy instagram broke. someone added a bunch (all?) of their individual IG followees to their reader via granary, so IG fetches spiked
#
[snarfed] user agent is aperture
#
[snarfed] i may have to disable individual IG profile fetches in the granary REST API altogether
#
[snarfed] will look tomorrow
gxt joined the channel
#
aaronpk Oh no
#
aaronpk hmm that doesn't track with ownyourgram getting blocked around the same time, curious
#
aaronpk I wonder if I suddenly got a bunch more users? That's something I didn't check before
cweiske, [Rose], jeremych_ and [grantcodes] joined the channel
#
[grantcodes] Just ran into a issue with the wordpress plugin & experimental micropub queries - and I'm not sure it is particularly a wordpress issue, but perhaps something that hasn't been discussed much yet
#
[grantcodes] For ownyourtrakt I am doing property queries (discussed here: https://github.com/indieweb/micropub-extensions/issues/4) to prevent posting duplicate watches
#
Loqi [EdwardHinkle] #4 Query for Post List
#
[grantcodes] And most endpoints don't support this, but the wp plugin still returns the list of posts, even though they are not valid for the query
#
[grantcodes] So the actual generalized question is should micropub endpoints throw an error when there is a query parameter they don't understand or not?
#
[grantcodes] The spec says it should throw a 400 if "The request is missing a required parameter, or there was a problem with a value of one of the parameters" - which doesn't really cover unrecognized parameters
jjuran, [Rose], gRegorLove and vika_nezrimaya joined the channel
#
GWG [grantcodes]: We don't implement properties.
#
GWG I don't think
#
[grantcodes] Yeah, that's fine - I think there are only maybe 2 implementations max (one being me). The issue was I sent that experimental query and got a response with all posts.
#
GWG It should say invalid parameter, I suppose
qotta and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Not so much a spec as a discussion https://twitter.com/ChristopherA/status/1165969433178902528?s=20
#
@ChristopherA TOPIC Keeping Unwanted Messages off the Fediverse KEY CONCEPT This paper proposes a number of techniques to leverage DID & Verifiable Credentials architectures to discourage spam in ActivityPub systems such as Mastadon. https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/rwot9-prague/blob/master/topics-and-advance-readings/ap-unwanted-messages.md (twitter.com/_/status/1165969433178902528)
[jgmac1106] and gRegorLove joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] everyone getting papers ready for RWOT9 bunch of ideas floating around right now
[grantcodes] and [tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] Wow that’s a lot of techno buzzwords for a problem that is fundamentally sociopolitical. More in -> chat
[schmarty], [jackjamieson], [KevinMarks], BenLubar and gRegorLove joined the channel
#
shrysr_ ~
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] temporarily disables instagram in granary altogether 😐
[schmarty] joined the channel
#
[schmarty] snarfed++ for granary hugops
#
Loqi snarfed has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (72 in all channels)
BenLubar and dougbeal|iOS joined the channel
#
[snarfed] reopened https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/665
#
Loqi [snarfed] #665 Instagram is blocking our scraping
BenLubar and bupkes joined the channel
#
@Cambridgeport90 ↩️ Interesting argument ... That's the problem with it. http://Microblog.pub, though, does have your #activitypub identity also acting as IndieAuth. Only one that does, for now. (twitter.com/_/status/1166076086507253768)
#
@cleverdevil @benwerd I keep a completely up-to-date list of feeds that I subscribe to in my microsub server (generated in real-time!) here - http://cleverdevil.io/following. Bonus points: its actually an h-feed you can subscribe to! I never got around to generating an OPML… https://cleverdevil.io/2019/benwerd-i-keep-a-completely-up-to-date-list (twitter.com/_/status/1166076204706873345)
#
@benwerd ↩️ @aminkasimov My site is powered by @withknown, with external content pulled in using http://brid.gy. (twitter.com/_/status/1166077669571612673)
[tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] Now this is a timeline design http://music.ishkur.com/
#
KartikPrabhu [tantek]: surprised you didn't js;dr that
[vendan] joined the channel
#
[vendan] leaving aside the timeline design, which is awesome, I'm really really loving the "click the music to listen to that kind"
#
[tantek] KartikPrabhu timelines w/o JS are quite hard (knowing from experience)
[Michael_Beckwit joined the channel
#
[Michael_Beckwit timelines in general aren’t that eays
#
[Michael_Beckwit easy*
#
[tantek] I don't even have a good suggestion to make authoring them (accessibly) easier
#
[Michael_Beckwit kudos for thinking about a11y for it though
#
[tantek] yeah a properly marked up table was the best I could come up with for that
[fluffy], gRegorLove and [snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] woo, bridgy instagram scraping is back, via proxy for now. off to re-enable disabled accts
#
[tantek] interesting
#
[tantek] are you using a set of rotating / random proxies, or will this just be burn one proxy at a time as they ban IPs?
[KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[tantek] on another topic: I'm working on ICS support for my events through H2VX, and it looks like my hCalendar (backcompat publishing) support is not quite there, so I'm considering how much work to put in backend code vs publishing markup
#
[snarfed] IP bans seem to be temporary. at least they were in 2016
#
[snarfed] hoping still true, so i can use this just for a week or so and then switch back to direct
#
[snarfed] granary was the real culprit. i'm planning to block IG in it almost entirely, and make people use either https://instagram-atom.appspot.com/ or self host
#
[snarfed] historic context re IG blocking: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-appengine/rpendSIxJMo/GxOoDxEtCgAJ
#
[snarfed] k all bridgy IG accounts are re-enabled and seem to be working ok
#
aaronpk hmm tips for how i can get around this in ownyourgram then?
#
[tantek] I forgot how sensitive Apple Calendar app is for ICS consumption
#
[snarfed] aaronpk i didn't try changing user agent, but that evidently helped last time. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/665#issuecomment-215973553
#
Loqi [snarfed] changed our user agent to a normal browser string, which seemed to fix this....but i doubt it'll stay fixed for long. app engine [still appends our app id to the user agent](https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/outbound-requests#request_hea...
#
[snarfed] otherwise proxy for a week 😐
#
[snarfed] also apologies, if OYG is on google cloud, the granary feed fetching was probably your root cause too
#
aaronpk ohhh
#
aaronpk wow
#
[snarfed] well maybe. no clue how much other scraping goes on, what the IP blocks look like, etc
#
[tantek] ugh, now I'm having trouble remembering what time format Apple Calendar requires for its ICS DTSTART: and DTEND:
#
Loqi Sorry, I don't see its ICS DTSTART: and DTEND: on https://indieweb.org/irc-people
#
[tantek] wat
#
[KevinMarks] What time for Tantek?
#
aaronpk thanks Loqi
#
Loqi you're welcome
#
[tantek] darnit now I don't remember the last time I actually got events with specific times to work with Apple Calendar ICS support
#
[KevinMarks] Can you export one and look?
#
[tantek] they export all kinds of non-standard garbage in their ICS and I'd rather than not try to debug all that
#
[tantek] trying other examples, looks like [schmarty]'s ICS doesn't import into Apple Calendar either, but gRegorLove's does
#
[tantek] and I tracked it down. Apple Calendar (10.0) on MacOS fails to support consuming datetime with TZ offset instead of Z
#
[tantek] if only there were a public ICS test suite for this kind of thing with which we could file a bug against Apple Calendar / MacOS
#
[tantek] sigh ok this is going to take non-trivial code to fix-up datetimes for legacy ICS compat consumption
#
[tantek] Apple Calendar seems to require times be in Z
[schmarty] joined the channel
#
[schmarty] Woah I had no idea about the Z tz thing
#
[KevinMarks] Or does it want tz names not offsets?
#
[tantek] not going to do fragile tz name generation gymnastics
#
[tantek] tznames--
#
Loqi tznames has -1 karma over the last year
#
[tantek] no desire to write olsendb code
#
[tantek] checking the microformats events archives for working examples
#
[tantek] a-ha! it also works with no TZ (floating time)
#
aaronpk ohno
#
[tantek] and requires the 00 seconds artificial precision
#
[tantek] ok I think I'm going to publish floating times for my "local" events (because that's the 99% use-case for me personally), and on the rare occasion I'm posting/hosting an event somewhere else, I'll put the Z time somewhere visible so I can mark it up explicitly and have that work
#
[tantek] seriously can't believe we're still dealing with such broken ICS support in 2019. It really is the RSS of calendaring 😛
#
[tantek] correction: FeedParser at least has a public test suite for RSS 😆
#
aaronpk floating times make me sad
#
[tantek] why? alarm clocks are floating
#
[tantek] also works well to avoid DST shenanigans
#
[tantek] just now rediscovers https://indieweb.org/Add_to_Calendar#IndieWeb_Examples 🤦‍♂️
#
[tantek] had totally forgotten about that page despite stubbing it ONLY FOUR MONTHS AGO
#
aaronpk alarm clocks are tied to a physical location
#
aaronpk that's why they work
#
KartikPrabhu if they are tied how can they float?
#
aaronpk that's what i mean :)
#
KartikPrabhu lol
#
aaronpk they aren't actually floating times
#
aaronpk [tantek]: if i see an "add to calendar" button on your website for an event in san francisco next week, but I'm currently in New York, and I click and add the event, it will add it in my local time, and then it will be in the wrong time next week on my phone
#
KartikPrabhu I actually have had that problem with some stuff I added to Google calendar
#
[tantek] no, time zones suck
#
KartikPrabhu the source didn't have timezones
[Michael_Beckwit joined the channel
#
[Michael_Beckwit time sucks 😄
#
[Michael_Beckwit programmatically speaking
#
[tantek] what is a timezone
#
Loqi Timezones are names used to highlight regions on the globe that are used to define a uniform time for society's use (legal, finance, social) https://indieweb.org/timezone
#
[tantek] aww someone fixed [KevinMarks] dfn
#
aaronpk personal feelings about timezones aren't really relevant to the discussion ;-)
#
KartikPrabhu well I am glad you guys are stuck on Earth and don't have to deal with actual time ;)
#
[tantek] aaronpk, sounds like a bug in your calendar reader. it should keep the time floating continuously so when you arrive in the destination time zone it works
#
aaronpk heh
#
aaronpk umm
#
aaronpk i guess that's how an alarm on the phone does it
#
[tantek] sounds like your calendar reader is asserting an artificial precision of a specific time zone when you add your event, then errantly locking you into that
#
[tantek] so it doesn't know to "float it" when you arrive at your destination time zone
#
aaronpk this is actually why i use a paper planner
#
[tantek] lololol
#
aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2019/03/22/7/
#
Loqi [Aaron Parecki] I haven't found a digital planner that can properly deal with how often I hop timezones. Sometimes you just have to stick to paper. Most planners are so big that I don't want to take them with me, so I'm very happy I found this stick planner in Japan... https://aaronparecki.com/2019/03/22/7/stick-planner.jpg
#
aaronpk that exact issue tho... i want to write "9am-1pm" on my calendar, be able to schedule something else after it at "2pm", and then on that day when i'm in a different timezone, have it still say "9am"
#
[tantek] This means there is likely a (small but lucrative) market for a digital calendar/planner that *does* do proper/nice/smart/reliable handling of timezones as a paid service
#
[tantek] for the jetset crowd like aaronpk 🙂
#
aaronpk in order to add an event in any digital calendar, i have to be looking at it in the "wrong" local time up until i change timezones
#
[tantek] ^^^ right that's exactly the kind of UX that a good calendaring service would get right
#
[tantek] instead of making you look at it in the wrong local time
#
aaronpk i feel like if i were ever going to be convinced to do another startup, it would be this
#
[KevinMarks] Gcal let's you set tz for events, but not sure how it shows them whne nor in graph view
#
aaronpk [KevinMarks]: i can show multiple timezones in gcal which is only sort of a solution
#
aaronpk doesn't look great for more than a 3 hour time difference, cause the date line wraps weirdly
#
[tantek] what is h2vx
#
aaronpk oh, only one additional timezone
#
Loqi h2vx is a service to convert hCard microformats to vCard, and hCalendar microformats to iCalendar https://indieweb.org/h2vx
#
[KevinMarks] Hipmunk doe it quite well
#
[KevinMarks] Gcal is showing me my Portland flight In London time.
#
[tantek] yes Hipmunk has a fairly clever UI for that sort of thing
#
[tantek] "only one additional timezone"
#
[tantek] wonders what aaronpk's average timezones per week is
#
aaronpk heh
#
aaronpk most of the time 2
#
aaronpk only a couple weeks this year were 3
#
[tantek] ok I captured the pain and personal feelings I encountered today re: ICS here so hopefully y'all can avoid pitfalls I spent time on today: https://indieweb.org/Add_to_Calendar#How_to_publish_ICS
#
aaronpk in any case, afaik all calendaring software will make an assumption about the timezone so you'll have the problem i described if you don't specify
#
aaronpk if you want it to actually be useful today
#
[tantek] also please correct me if I got anything wrong
#
[tantek] aaronpk that's a pretty broad assumption regarding an entire class of user interfaces
#
aaronpk ok s/all/most/
#
[tantek] unless you've like designed numerous calendaring software UIs yourself, I'd say you lack the experience to make such a grand statement of UX assumption
#
[tantek] lots of mediocre examples != impossible to make a good example
#
aaronpk do you want the button to work well for most people? or do you want to try to use it as leverage to get software developers to improve calendaring apps?
#
[tantek] it'll work well for most people since most people going to an event are already in that event's timezone
#
aaronpk either is fine :) and I definitely fall in the latter category for certain things myself
#
aaronpk the problem is it's a silent failure
#
[tantek] and yeah I'm ok with posting public test cases that break calendar software as a way to encourage their devs to fix
#
[tantek] is not going to bite at the nerd snipe of designing a new calendaring UI that has a better projection of the 4D space of calendar events into a 2D display.
#
[tantek] notes that the https://indieweb.org/cities chart vertical axis is clustered by timezones :)
#
[tantek] alright I think I'm going to go with *some* of the latter aaronpk, but not with calendaring apps but rather mf2 parsers. I'm going to be switching my datetimes in my h-events to depend on value class pattern support (which I know many mf2 parsers have still not quite caught up to)
#
[tantek] so who knows what will break. will be interesting to hear from anyone consuming h-event dt-start dt-end