#dev 2019-08-30

2019-08-30 UTC
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[asuh] The thought I had was pointing people to a clearly written article explaining some of the differences from people who understand it better than I do. Could make for an interesting read, similarly cited with examples like Kevin’s post
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[KevinMarks] [asuh] you might like this page too about the multiple metadata formats http://www.kevinmarks.com/partialsilos.html
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[tantek] [asuh] similar to what aaronpk said, I think it really depends on your use-cases
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jgmac1106 !mf2 http://jgregorymcverry.com/questiontheweb.html
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fquestiontheweb.html
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Loqi [J. Gregory McVerry] #QuestionTheWeb
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jgmac1106 curious to see what happened with multiple authors
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GWG !tell snarfed Can you look at the logs for https://brid.gy/twitter/willtmonroe - I'm not sure why it seems to be retrieving something other than the site intended.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[snarfed] GWG: i don't see the bad fetch that you mentioned, in any of his publish logs...but looks like he/you resolved it regardless
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Loqi [snarfed]: GWG left you a message 39 minutes ago: Can you look at the logs for https://brid.gy/twitter/willtmonroe - I'm not sure why it seems to be retrieving something other than the site intended.
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GWG It was weird. It seemed to be retrieving some other site
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GWG But correct, it resolved
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[snarfed] GWG: can you point me to where you saw that?
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[snarfed] i didn't see that in any of these four logs: https://brid.gy/twitter/willtmonroe#publishes
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GWG https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1567130914&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyUAsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiKWh0dHBzOi8vd2lsbHRtb25yb2UuY29tL3VuY2F0ZWdvcml6ZWQvNzkvDAsSB1B1Ymxpc2gYgIDAvruNlwoM
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GWG Error 403, response body
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[snarfed] requests.get https://willtmonroe.com/uncategorized/79/
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Loqi [Will Will Monroe is the Assistant Director for Instructional Technology at the Louisiana State University Law Center. He has also taught courses at LSU and Sam Houston State University. He received a doctorate in educational leadership and research with a concentration in educational technology from Louisiana State University.] This is a test post to Twitter via Bridgy. https://willtmonroe.com/wp-content/plugins/cookies-for-comments/css.php?k=6119d99409c475645b7cc989404fe354&o=i&t=877765827
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[snarfed] looks like it fetched the expected URL
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GWG Then where did the 403 come from?
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GWG I probably should tell him cookies for comments doesn't always play nice, but...
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[snarfed] that URL
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GWG Well, glad that's figured out
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GWG I'm going to go back to fixing a PHP7.3 error in webmentions
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KartikPrabhu anyone know a good guide to migrating from Python 2.7 to Python 3?
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[fluffy] 1. run 2to3 and pylint
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[fluffy] 2. see what breaks
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[fluffy] 3. fix it
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[pawel_madej] Thx for tips I will look at it and share when something will be visible. One more... Indie webring is a good thing for trafic creation? Or just minor addon?
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Ruxton I'd say minor addon, dont see a lot of traffic rom it
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mblaney hi snarfed, back on the *-atom discussion, I would love to see more author information in the feeds which isn't currently there.
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mblaney I think it's just a descriptive name, would be great to have photo and url as well.
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mblaney I did some research on how to add that in atom a while ago, I think I came to the conclusion that I would rather have everything in mf2.
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@zaccolley ↩️ @efjspencer web mentions seems interesting: https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1167360357448503296)
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[KevinMarks] Mastodon does some extra namespace work to add author images to atom
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mblaney KevinMarks yeah that's where I got to and thought mf2 would be easier.
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[jgmac1106] gwg, snarfed, willmonroe yes any Reclaim Hosting account needs to delete cookies for comments, they put in a 1px by 1px img that trips up parsers
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jgmac1106 "yeah that's where I got to and thought mf2 would be easier" a very common note
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[KevinMarks] That is a design principle
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@nhoizey ↩️ @efjspencer @zaccolley You should definitely use Webmentions! https://nicolas-hoizey.com/2017/07/so-long-disqus-hello-webmentions.html (twitter.com/_/status/1167384473157156864)
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jgmac1106 !mf2 https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/08/27/ny-feldgang-like-my-writing-is-almost-finished-you-can
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fquickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com%2F2019%2F08%2F27%2Fny-feldgang-like-my-writing-is-almost-finished-you-can
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Hey #clmooc my #feldgang like my writing is almost finished. You can make sense of the direction but have to step through the brush in a sma... https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/file/cf42f5d141a4d4f7b42f78f61ce18760/thumb.png
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Hey #clmooc my #feldgang like my writing is almost finished. You can make sense of the direction but have to step through the brush in a sma... https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/file/cf42f5d141a4d4f7b42f78f61ce18760/thumb.png
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[snarfed] thanks mblaney! author url is definitely already in granary atom, but photo isn't. i can look into it
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GWG Hi, [snarfed]
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[snarfed] hi!
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[snarfed] hey hey, OYG is back, looks like as of 8-9pmish PST last night
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[pawel_madej] Do webmention.io support vouch?
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aaronpk [snarfed]: I think a few photos got thru and then it got blocked again
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[snarfed] aaronpk: ah, so you didn't add a cookie
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[pawel_madej] And how to easy way add posse links to sindicated content for example on twitter to post on jekyll based site? The only way is to update post with gathered URL from twitter?
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aaronpk No, I was about to, and then realized I need to push a change to XRay first that either allows the caller to include a cookie or just bake the cookie into XRay
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aaronpk bake the cookie lol
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aaronpk in either case it requires touching two projects and I didn't have time to sort that out
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jgmac1106 why is an html validator telling a ul can’t be nested under a ul, isn’t tthat how everyone makes nested lists and dropdown nav bars? “ement ul not allowed as child of element ul in this context.”
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aaronpk ul > li > ul
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jgmac1106 ahh thx
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jgmac1106 missed the error
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] [pawel_madej] I’m using Jekyll. I get Webmention from Twitter thanks to webmention.io , and collect them in my pages thanks to this plugin: https://github.com/aarongustafson/jekyll-webmention_io
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] And Brid.gy also
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[pawel_madej] So when you send posse URL to twitter you get back link from it via bridgy?
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] yes
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[pawel_madej] And it appears as webmention not as some post embeded element?
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] Here’s an example: https://nicolas-hoizey.com/2017/11/medium-is-only-an-edge-server-of-your-posse-cdn-your-own-blog-is-the-origin.html#webmentions
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[pawel_madej] This graphic is auto generated for twitter card or manually?
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jgmac1106 that is probaly open graph <meta property="og:image”…..
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jgmac1106 it is in the header and what facebook and twitter use to as an image when you post a url
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[Rose] Ooh, I like the idea of generating a sharing image for each post.
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jgmac1106 ohh. y mistake you were asking how it is made
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@tw2113 Contributing to the #indieweb and specifically #webmentions with my #5ftf time today at @webdevstudios (twitter.com/_/status/1167452897396822017)
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[pawel_madej] Yes i ask how it is done not how syndicated 😉
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[pawel_madej] I saw some partial example but not the complete solution. But i find them hugely engaging to click and read.
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] [pawel_madej] auto generated
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] I have yet to write a post about it…
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[pawel_madej] Can you share solution? Is it jekyll plugin or some other script?
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] It is a Jekyll Liquid template which generates a Cloudinary URL: https://github.com/nhoizey/nicolas-hoizey.com/blob/master/_includes/social-image-url.html
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] It uses this image for the background and adds the title and an icon depending on the content type (article, link, tag, etc.) : https://nicolas-hoizey.com/assets/opengraph/opengraph-background.png
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[pawel_madej] Thank you [Nicolas_Hoizey]
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[Nicolas_Hoizey] You’re welcome
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[snarfed] re twitter cards, http://cards-dev.twitter.com/validator is useful, and not well advertised ([pawel_madej] [Rose] [jgmac1106])
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[Rose] Thanks!
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jamietanna[m] Woohoo, I've finally got around to my meetup-to-Microformats2 API working, looking to blog + link to it this weekend :D
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[snarfed] ooh interesting
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[snarfed] you could do meetup backfeed!
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jamietanna[m] It's partly to make it so when I RSVP via Micropub, it can pull the relevant info for the RSVP and publish that to my site (so I can then render the calendar entries)
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jamietanna[m] I'm looking to get Brid.gy support for Meetup at some point
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aaronpk jamietanna[m]: oh awesome! I'll be curious to give it a read and see if it's something I can easily add to XRay!
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[Michael_Beckwit hi jamie
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[snarfed] jamietanna++
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Loqi jamietanna has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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jamietanna[m] aaronpk that's a great shout, that'd make it much better for everyone! Currently mine doesn't handle the rate limiting / throttling (but will at some point)
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jamietanna[m] It's actually a fairly low-energy conversion from the Meetup API's format to an h-event
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jamietanna[m] So was less work than I thought
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[snarfed] jamietanna cool! not seeing the code on github yet, is it elsewhere?
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jamietanna[m] It'll be on GitLab.com at some point, but I really need to clean up the code first as it's very hacked together :D
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[Michael_Beckwit remove the bandaid, apply the duct tape?
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[snarfed] sure. is it python? you'll have a harder time adding it to bridgy if not 😎
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jamietanna[m] My implementation is Java - but I knew I'd have to reimplement in Python for bridgy anyway
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[snarfed] ok! yeah usually most of the work is the learning anyway, not the coding
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jamietanna[m] Exactly
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jacky random: does indieweb news not support / like `e-name`?
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jacky my post uses that http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fv2.jacky.wtf%2Fpost%2Fneed-mobile-indieweb
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Loqi [Jacky Alciné] As much as the Web community would love to tell us that the Web is completely ready for the mobile landscape, it doesn't come close to the speed of native code running on a consumer device. Not a vanilla emulator but a two-year (or older!) device wit...
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jacky hmm
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jacky everything seems to not like that
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jacky doesn't want to change it
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jacky https://aviation-edge.com/ cc: aaronpk
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aaronpk e-name? No, nothing is gonna like that
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jacky :( :(
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aaronpk Why do you need to do that?
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aaronpk That's saying the name of your post has html in it...
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aaronpk which like nothing is going to be happy about
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jacky I figured if I wanted to make part of it bold or something
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jacky but yeah
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jacky I'll drop it
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jacky not really a thing in the wild / world anyway
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[tantek] jacky, I use <title type="xhtml"> inside my Atom entry elements just to make Atom readers fix their bugs
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[tantek] e.g. all my notes have an "empty" title element like this: <title type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="if-your-feed-reader-displays-this-then-it-is-violating-the-Atom-spec-RFC-4287-section-4.2.14"/></title>
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[tantek] avoids getting into another RSS argument on Twitter, because no amount of claims of rising can stand up the fact that the format is dead (from a bug-fixing / evolving standpoint).
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[tantek] the only thin that would resurrect RSS would be if someone pulled a WHATWG on it and rewrote a new RSS spec from scratch that documents what is *actually* supported in feed readers today, and then starts proposing new "social media" features like likes, replies, reposts, photo, video etc., just as WHATWG added the <audio> and <video> tags to HTML
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[snarfed] i usually interpret those claims right now as really about blogs and readers rising, not the specific plumbing format(s)
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[tantek] when the plumbing provides a ceiling to the features, then it becomes about the plumbing
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[snarfed] eh, if the claims in question are dives into specific features, then sure. they often aren't though
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[tantek] if it's just reminiscent rising for ye olde readere experiences of yore, then that's just a trendy pop that'll fade.
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[snarfed] heh sure
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[tantek] without acknowledging UX has moved on (like a lot), then people will quickly get bored with the quaint olde thinge and go back to the feature rich modern UX they take for granted
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[tantek] Wow I really miss my feed reader unread counts! said no one ever
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[Michael_Beckwit i keep mine close to zero 😄
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[fluffy] same
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[fluffy] I love FoF’s UI for making it really easy to go into “skim mode” and just clear the stuff I don’t actually care about reading.
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[fluffy] also per yesterday’s discussion on attachments: opened a Publ issue. https://github.com/PlaidWeb/Publ/issues/280
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Loqi [fluffy-critter] #280 Ability to extract attachments from entries
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aaronpk Yeah that's the thing that's worrying me about this "rss comeback" or whatever it is right now
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[fluffy] Which is the thing?
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[fluffy] Lack of attachments and rich semantic content?
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[fluffy] Or the inbox overload?
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[Michael_Beckwit the resurfacing of all the original issues that never got resolved?
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[KevinMarks] the unread counts in monocle are shocking on my twitter-fed one
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[KevinMarks] it's only capped at 3120 because monocle ditches old ones
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[KevinMarks] it's a warning on how much time I lose on twitter
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[Michael_Beckwit i just don’t worry so much about staying on top of twitter
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aaronpk Trying to "bring back" rss or that style of experience without recognizing why it died off in the first place
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[jgmac1106] snarfed even though the engagement numbers are so higher I wait for the day u-featured gets POSSED rather than putting the same image twice
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[jgmac1106] Though [Nicolas_Hoizey] example was his summary on hist sites background img...that is kinda neat. Haven't seen that before.
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[jgmac1106] Still first thing I do is remove OG plugins...not my business pages of course... There I dribk the hypocritical kool-aid
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[jgmac1106] Please stop thinking people know what RSS is... To them this just the thing they used to use to read blogs
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[jgmac1106] When many people (not DHH) say bring back RSS they don't mean tech they mean, "Let's blog again"
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[jgmac1106] RSS is the Kleenex... Oops snarfed already made this point
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KartikPrabhu right, RSS is the Maggi of noodles :P [really obscure reference no one here might get ;) ]
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[fluffy] I thought RSS died off in the user case because people conflated RSS as being “Google Reader” and when Google discontinued that they were just all “wellp 🤷‍♀️ ”
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[fluffy] and people switched to facebook and twitter instead, because at the time both of them still presented everything you were subscribed to in chronological order
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[fluffy] like it was less about UX and more about ease of access
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[fluffy] (and complacency)
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[Michael_Beckwit i’m not convinced most people know that they *maybe* use RSS to read sites
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[Michael_Beckwit chances are more, like already said, they end up on the site via social media
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[Michael_Beckwit i’d dare say the most popular use of RSS is podcasting
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[Michael_Beckwit they know that they subscribe to the podcast via their preferred app, etc
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[Michael_Beckwit but they don’t know how they do
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jacky right
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jacky which goes to say
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[jgmac1106] Kartik correct I did use a US centric analogy my apologies...though a Swiss noodle company popular in southeast Asia and now owned by Nestle....has some value as a metaphor, will keep searching
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[jgmac1106] agree people had no idea what RSS was or is? it was the button they hit to follow a blog or they pasted in a link to a reader....
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[snarfed] ok, i've added mf2 output to https://twitter-atom.appspot.com/ too. existing users, just change /atom in your feed URL to /html to get html+mf2.
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[fluffy] and yeah definitely, people say things like “RSS is dead, podcasts are how I follow people”
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[fluffy] Focusing on the actual syndication technology is an easy way to get confused. Which is related to why I don’t care so much about differentiating between RSS and Atom.
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[tantek] Atom has an actual path / chance to being updated if someone decides to put the work in to update the RFC and present it at IETF
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[tantek] which if someone did decide to do, I'd suggest an informative appendix that documented RSS backcompat parsing for Atom consumers that did a more formal job of specifying RSS than the "actual" RSS spec
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@tomcritchlow ↩️ Yes! The indieweb is trying with webmentions and RSS etc but it's a surprisingly difficult problem to solve.... My spidersense says *something* new is around the corner though. (twitter.com/_/status/1167527333479288833)
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[tantek] jacky, I noticed you are displaying your Webmention received times to *milliseconds precision* (e.g. in bottom of https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/need-mobile-indieweb ). I'm kinda curious why 🤔
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jacky no particular reason outside of me having it stored that way
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@schlagetown ↩️ Yeah & I feel like it's a hard problem not just technically but conceptually. I'll admit I haven't dug into http://indieweb.org too thoroughly to learn about e.g. webmentions but my impression = great efforts to codify goals/protocols; not super accessible for typical users (twitter.com/_/status/1167529859511398400)
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@tomcritchlow ↩️ yeah - I consider myself a proficient hacker and duct-tape coder and I still haven't managed to get webmentions to work properly... (twitter.com/_/status/1167532505622306819)
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[snarfed] ^ he's evidently on jekyll. (see colophon on https://tomcritchlow.com/now/ ) so that arguably says more about him than about wms
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@fluffy ↩️ There are plenty of tools to make webmentions work with publishing systems like Jekyll that don’t support them directly. It’s definitely something that could be made easier though. (twitter.com/_/status/1167533521776234496)
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@schlagetown ↩️ For sure. One thing I'm thinking about is "blogchains" and what could make that sort of thing easier. A way for us / a few folks to exchange short blog posts + automatically have each other's replies auto-embedded on our respective blogs. Maybe webmentions would help here? (twitter.com/_/status/1167536780431826945)
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[tantek] blogchains? 🤔 cc: [schmarty]
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[schmarty] It's the new name for salmentions
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[schmarty] (as described in that tweet)
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@tomcritchlow ↩️ yeah - (aside: I'm trying to start a cross-domain blogchain with @itsbdell but he hasn't posted his post yet!) I think some ripe ideas: - Blogchains across domains - Blog-replies (webmentions def trying to solve this) - Easy, simple aggregators / directories that are alive (twitter.com/_/status/1167538782272442369)
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aaronpk blogchain is a better name than salmentions tho hahaha
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Loqi rofl
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[snarfed] less bad
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[snarfed] even worse, a less bad pun
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aaronpk accurate
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[tantek] salmentions is only relevant to a very small subset here, and has a shrinking set of OStatus folks that would "get it"
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[snarfed] ugh, i have case-sensitive, non-lower-case twitter usernames stored in my (bridgy's) dbccccccfnhietnuvvvbddtllvuinljvlcddgdlvvheiil
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[snarfed] ahhh yubikey 🤦
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[snarfed] ...so my only good way of checking usernames case-insensitive is to update all those usernames in the db, and consuming code and external services, etc. ugh
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jacky haha
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[KevinMarks] You do ideally want to display them as mixed case though
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[snarfed] yup. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/884
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Loqi [snarfed] #884 twitter usernames should be case insensitive
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[KevinMarks] What do you do if someone changes their handle? Twitter recommends using the id instead
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[snarfed] i fail 😐 https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/766
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Loqi [snarfed] #766 handle when usernames change
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