#dev 2019-09-23

2019-09-23 UTC
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@janboddez So, finally managed to send a webmention to a site that’s not mine! (Ima have to look into adding an avatar of some sort. Also, I kinda miss a link back to my post, though I guess it’s entirely up to the “destination site” to add one or not. Finally,… https://mastodon.social/@janboddez/102841449964038828 (twitter.com/_/status/1176087375610556416)
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[snarfed] !tell sorry for the trouble! myfreeweb looks like granary is happy with unrelenting.technology now. haven't figured out what happened yesterday. logs do show it returned an empty response, but it was able to fetch your site fine, so i don't know yet
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[snarfed] !tell myfreeweb sorry for the trouble! looks like granary is happy with unrelenting.technology now. haven't figured out what happened yesterday. logs do show it returned an empty response, but it was able to fetch your site fine, so i don't know yet
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[snarfed] argh
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel [snarfed]: it was the brotli issue
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[snarfed] sknebel ah right, ugh, sorry. https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/112277350
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[snarfed] they have acknowledged and said they'll fix it, but no ETA. whee
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sknebel Yeah. myfreeweb turned off broti for granarys user agent
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jacky I went ahead and upgraded to ngrok pro
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jacky so I can do things like https://lwa.ngrok.io from my laptop \o/
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jacky helps when testing locally because cookies stick to a domain :(
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jacky oh it looks a bit doable from hand if one wants to self host
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jacky https://jerrington.me/posts/2019-01-29-self-hosted-ngrok.html
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aaronpk that's a great writeup
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aaronpk i've been doing that for a while. got a wildcard SSL cert for a domain and dedicated the domain to reverse tunnels
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[snarfed] hi [fluffy]! moving discussion from https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/58#issuecomment-534227882 here
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[fluffy] hullo
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[snarfed] sounds like the use case is using bridgy fed to federate posts to mastodon etc even if they're eg a reply to a non-mastodon (non-AP) post
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[fluffy] Define “reply” in this context
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[snarfed] this has come up before. the catch is that it's not clear how to render this as an AP post effectively, since the reply context is difficult. discussion: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/57#issuecomment-524645179
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Loqi [snarfed] before we get too deep into plumbing, how would you want bridgy fed to federate this post? ie how would you expect it to look in Mastodon? it's a repost, but it can't be federated as an AP repost (boost). it's not a note, so bridgy fed is reluctant ...
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[fluffy] Like, I’m not necessarily *replying* to a thing, I’m just linking to it
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[snarfed] your example post has u-in-reply-to another post on your site
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[fluffy] ah, fair
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[fluffy] but it’s still a thing that should appear in my activitypub timeline, I think?
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[fluffy] like, in my case it’s a blog entry
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[fluffy] it just happens to reply to someone else’s blog entry, but the intention is that it be seen by my subscribers
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[snarfed] mind reading the few comments on the issue i linked? bridgy fed definitely could federate it, but it's unclear whether/how to include a reply context
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[snarfed] same thing discussed on the github issue ^
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[fluffy] reading now
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[tantek] POSSEing replies is not necessarily an obvious thing to put into a "timeline"
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[snarfed] right!
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[snarfed] also higher level background in https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb . basically, bridgy and bridgy fed are useful plumbing tools, but i get reluctant to include too much user-visible presentation logic in them. i'm definitely open to discussion and ideas though!
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[fluffy] Yeah but my blog is a blog not a social media presence
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[tantek] what does that even mean though?
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[fluffy] like if someone would see a post via an RSS subscription I’d also expect them to see it via an ActivityPub subscription
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[fluffy] blogs are a different beast than timeline-oriented social
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[fluffy] and trying to force one into the other doesn’t work, but so many people expect to just follow me via social now
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[fluffy] using mastodon instead of an RSS reader
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[snarfed] [fluffy] how would you want it to look on mastodon? just the text? add an "[in reply to: ...]" text prefix? something else?
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[fluffy] I mean what all my posts look like on Mastodon are just the summary text and then a link to the full entry anyway
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[fluffy] whether it’s a reply or not
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[fluffy] and I didn’t do anything particular to set that up
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[tantek] snarfed's questions are on point — there's design work to be done on the presentation side and it is non-trivial
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[snarfed] right. replies are a bit more dependent on context to be readable though
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[tantek] reply to post to silo A, POSSEing to silo B <-- no obvious design, but workable and we have some examples
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[fluffy] but none of the content that is the actual reply would be showing up in the first place
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[fluffy] This stuff is all just such a big mess, as always
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[fluffy] and I get that you’re trying to support the Right Thing but that seems to defy expectations of what’s going to actually be intended
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[tantek] repost post to silo A, POSSEing to silo B <-- no design anywhere AFAIK (last I remember discussing this with Karthik at IWC NYC 2016?) and would be kinda nonsensical to followers on B
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[fluffy] my “reply” posts aren’t really replies in the same sense as a twitter or mastodon reply though
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[fluffy] at least not necessarily
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[tantek] fluffy, re: "like if someone would see a post via an RSS subscription" yup that's exactly why I stopped putting reply posts in my Atom feed, because it was more noisy than not to RSS subscribers
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[fluffy] if I’m posting it on my blog it’s because I intend for people to read it
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[fluffy] and I try to do things with enough context that they’re not just like a one-liner or whatever
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[tantek] same, so it is on my home page and h-feed
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[tantek] RSS subscribers have different expectations due to legacy UIs
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[fluffy] like I’ll be quoting what I’m replying to and it’s part of a larger ongoing discussion
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aaronpk if your reply posts aren't really a reply, then I'd suggest not marking them up as a reply
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[fluffy] they’re a *response* though
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[tantek] right. that doesn't sound like a reply then
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[fluffy] should it just be mention-of then?
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[tantek] response is a larger category of things, worthy looking into /response to figure out what you're doing
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KartikPrabhu [fluffy]: there is no "mention-of" any link is a mention
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aaronpk quite possibly no markup is needed
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[tantek] yes mention would be the LCD, and no need to mark it up. all links are mentions by default
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[tantek] what is a response
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Loqi responses, or interactions, in the context of the indieweb, refer to all the different ways and things people explicitly do to and with others’s posts, from written replies to quick likes, in other words responses = replies + reactions https://indieweb.org/response
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aaronpk looking at the post from the github issue, I would not expect this to be marked up as anything other than a full blog post https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1912-Slowcial-networking
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[fluffy] okay, so, what I’m getting here is that a public response to a blog entry is not considered a reply, and a reply is specifically intended as a twitter-style response then
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aaronpk also not sure what the like-of is doing there, because that's going to cause a consumer to disregard all the contents of the post
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aaronpk (see: post type discovery)
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[fluffy] I’ve used like-of weirdly too.
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[fluffy] so okay I need to adjust my mindset away from how things work in an RSS world, is what I’m getting.
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[tantek] replies are typically directly in a thread, meant to be read as part of that thread, and may even be speaking directly to the author of the in-reply-to post
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aaronpk i'm not sure how the RSS world factors into this
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[tantek] I've seen inconsistent anecdotes about "how things work in an RSS world"
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[tantek] Like there is no one way "how things work in an RSS world", but there are some patterns
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[jgmac1106] Part of the reason I may unfollow people from Mastodon in micro.blog...i can't get the whole conversation (unless I leave) and if I reply all the reply context missing Mastodon
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[fluffy] like, if I make a “like” post of someone else’s pose I don’t want it to show up in my RSS feed as its own thing, so if someone responds to a post of mine and I like it I’ve been adding the “like” (as a webmention-only thing) into the post being responded to
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aaronpk if anything, the mindset shift is to move away from automatically adding markup/structure to every part of content
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[fluffy] I’m just trying to limit the amount of chatter that my blog generates in peoples’ feed readers while still participating in IndieWeb stuff
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[tantek] ^^^ exactly why I dropped my reply posts from my Atom feed
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[jgmac1106] Fluffy can you just unfurl any link you like and display that as well as the like and link?
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[fluffy] what do you mean by ‘unfurl’ in this case?
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[tantek] my rough understanding of RSS reader users is that they expect to see original content, not responses
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aaronpk this is why I don't put my "like" posts on my home page
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[tantek] what is unfurl
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "unfurl" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "unfurl is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[snarfed] https://indieweb.org/link-preview
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[jgmac1106] Mean take OG stuff, Activity stream and display the title, featured imagexand/or summary
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[fluffy] that’s what I thought you meant, but the question made no sense to me in the context
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[tantek] aaronpk, "like" posts in a home page composite stream were definitely a difficult design problem. I sympathize
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aaronpk [fluffy]: it sounds like you want people to see these "response" posts, but don't want people to see your "like" posts. that's fine, you just decide which ones to put on your feed pages
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[jgmac1106] gwg does a decent job in WordPress and swentel does with Indigenous as well
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[fluffy] that requires a bunch more plumbing in Publ (or at least in my templates) but if that’s what it takes I’ll do that instead.
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[fluffy] I guess that clears up a bunch of stuff.
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aaronpk yes, it's definitely an intentional design decision
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[jgmac1106] Used to just see Tantek liked https//example.com now I think I also see a summary of that link using available metadata
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[fluffy] bleh, except then I have to do something special for Pushl because that’s what I use to generate my webmentions, driven from my atom feed
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aaronpk i explicitly wanted to be able to choose what goes onto my home page, not have it be everything
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[tantek] atom/rss feed should be treated as a special POSSE / distribution case with its own weird quirks due to legacy UIs
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[tantek] not as core infrastructure IMO
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aaronpk that's a good point, i hadn't really thought of it that way
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[tantek] there's too many user-expectation constraints on Atom/RSS already
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aaronpk it's specifically because of the UIs people read them from, and the expectations of those people
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[tantek] which interfere with using it as any kind of generic internal infrastructure
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[KevinMarks] The rss native reply format is fisking
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[tantek] Atom/RSS are for publishing distribution, that's all
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aaronpk [KevinMarks]: unless any modern software displays "rss native reply" posts, it's not really worth bringing up
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[tantek] [fluffy] I sympathize with the "quoting [something] and it’s part of a larger ongoing discussion" format, however that needs to be a standalone blog post /article IMO and is not a "response" to any one thing in particular.
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[tantek] aaronpk, he was being facetious
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[tantek] there is no "rss native reply format"
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] forgot the 🙂
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[KevinMarks] Sorry, let me rephrase. The blogging convention was to blockquote extensively when replying, precisely because you couldn't rely on the other post being visible to your reader.
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Zegnat Interesting data point: advertisers we work with increasingly tell us they will just index our HTML themselves, do not want us to push any sort of format (like RSS) to them at all.
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[tantek] yup
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aaronpk wow
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[KevinMarks] Fisking is the endpoint of that approach.
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Zegnat We have had problems with that too, e.g. if we need to redact an article, we have to contact advertisers and ask them to re-/de-index.
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[fluffy] okay so I think I know how I’ll go forward on this: I will make my atom feed *by default* not publish like-of or in-reply-to, and I’ll allow overriding that so that Pushl can access those entries.
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[schmarty] +1 to treating RSS/Atom as special formats _based on the consuming applications_
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[KevinMarks] (the other pattern was a multi-author blog where you replied in the same space)
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[schmarty] in the cooking metaphor: if nobody eats it, it's not food
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aaronpk 😂
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[snarfed] [fluffy] fwiw feel free to still trigger bridgy fed to federate replies to AP posts! it's definitely designed for those at least
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Zegnat “if nobody eats it, it's not food” I like that one!
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[tantek] [schmarty]++ that's good
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Loqi [schmarty] has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (69 in all channels)
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[schmarty] or in a positive framing: "it's only food if somebody eats it" 😄
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[jgmac1106] Way more people eat RSS than there are mf2 diets
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aaronpk way more people eat terrible junk food than healthy food too
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[KevinMarks] http://known.kevinmarks.com/2019/renaming-selfdogfooding-to-eat-what-you-cook-indieweb
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[KevinMarks] Most social media is wasted food?
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[jgmac1106] In that metaphor mf2 would be a high end vegan restaurant, rss a local dive bar, and social media fast food
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[fluffy] i am rolling my eyes so hard at that aaronpk
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aaronpk [fluffy]: good that was the point :D
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[fluffy] rss/atom and mf2 shouldn’t be in competition 😛
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[tantek] they serve different purposes
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[fluffy] yes
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[KevinMarks] You can tunnel mf2 inside them
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[tantek] Kevinmarks, by "tunnel" do you mean embed?
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[fluffy] but there’s also some mismatches with how below-the-fold/cut content works in all these scenarios.
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aaronpk you can also deep fry kale
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[fluffy] my atom feeds show full content, unless I have a content warning/spoiler cut in which case it only shows the preamble
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[tantek] Obligatory: http://thereisnofold.com/
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[fluffy] “fold” is a metaphor 😛
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[fluffy] I don’t want to put my whole entry onto my index page. I have “read more” links
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[schmarty] "it's only a fold if somebody crease(s) it"
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aaronpk [schmarty]++
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Loqi [schmarty] has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (70 in all channels)
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[schmarty] sees himself out 😂
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[fluffy] sometimes my “read more” has a content warning, in which case I don’t also include it in my feed
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[tantek] I'm pretty interested in that content warning design
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[tantek] we need to document more of those
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[fluffy] and I expect to always do it that way even when I do a proper full-content h-feed
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[tantek] what is a content warning
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Loqi content warning is a feature of a post create UI where an author can hide by default some or all of the primary content of a post due to some concern about the nature of the content https://indieweb.org/content_warning
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[fluffy] also: my preamble isn’t necessarily the same as my summary, either
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[fluffy] by default Publ generates a summary from the first paragraph of preamble text, but that can also be overridden
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[KevinMarks] Monocle folds posts for you
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[tantek] I think you're first [fluffy]!
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[fluffy] I doubt that, I took my inspiration from LiveJournal 😛
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[fluffy] at least, for cuts/CWs
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[KevinMarks] details/summary is a CW model
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[fluffy] there’s a big missing thing right now in that CWs don’t show up in the direct link.
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[fluffy] for example, on my feeds and index, https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1371-There-are-no-happy-endings provides a major CW but that’s not actually visible in mf2 or in plain view on the post itself
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[fluffy] that’s a thing I need to address
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[fluffy] oh and that’s another example of where the summary is different than the preamble.
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[tantek] [fluffy] I meant on an indieweb site
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[tantek] [fluffy] stubbed: https://indieweb.org/content_warning#IndieWeb_Examples
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[fluffy] sure, I’ll flesh that out.
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[fluffy] also my template is {{beesbuzz.biz}} FWIW 🙂
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[tantek] those are all really good details to capture. clearly you've put a lot of thought into this and it's appreciated!
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[tantek] [fluffy] you can have more than one 😄
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[fluffy] incidentally, I guess inside an entry itself I could use <details> like I do on comic pages (e.g. http://beesbuzz.biz/comics/guest/?id=161)
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[fluffy] haha oops the opengraph tags still show the image
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[fluffy] Iiiii should fix that
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[fluffy] ugh although the image opengraph stuff is done on the Publ side, not the template side…
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[KevinMarks] I did details for cw on mastoview eg http://www.unmung.com/mastoview?url=octodon.social
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[KevinMarks] Scroll down a bit for siiiiiiiege
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[fluffy] yeah the mastodon approach is what inspired how I do CWs on my comics pages
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[KevinMarks] So as long as the readers preserve the html they should work (which was the tunnelling thing)
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aaronpk "work"
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[fluffy] yeah I just don’t want to rely on <details> getting preserved because like… that’s a fairly new tag, and not even every browser supports it
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[fluffy] (granted, MOST do, but still)
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[fluffy] like I know some folks who use lynx as their daily driver
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[fluffy] mostly for accessibility reasons
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aaronpk i'm not actually sure whether my HTML sanitization allows detail tags through
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aaronpk it's pretty aggressive about removing stuff
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[fluffy] yeah, same with FeedOnFeeds
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[KevinMarks] Hm, good point
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[fluffy] I do know that out-of-the-box FeedOnFeeds actually strips *all* HTML, because there’s no way to have a plugin be disabled by default and for some reason one of the other maintaners really wanted a “strip all HTML” mode. 😕
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[fluffy] well, not all HTML, but everything aside from <a> <br> <p> <div>
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[KevinMarks] https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/html-sanitization.html apparently allows details but not summary.
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[fluffy] … why
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[fluffy] details without summary is kinda not-useful
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[KevinMarks] Yeah, seems like a bug.
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[fluffy] Hm, I guess RSVP posts should also be hidden from feeds
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[fluffy] and my indieweb posts (which will still be in /blog/chatter) can generally be much much less elaborate than what I was doing before 🙂
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[fluffy] I forget what Publ does if there’s an entry with no title or content, in terms of how it’ll appear on an index or a feed… guess I’ll find out!
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[snarfed] it's kind of a case of the indieweb "let a thousand flowers bloom" philosophy, which i love, ie we all get to do whatever we want on our own sites!
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[snarfed] there are common use cases and recommendations for interop, as you mentioned, eg in readers and other common tools and services like bridgy, but they're only recommendations, not requirements
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[fluffy] ah, it uses the filename
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@janboddez ↩️ But before I go there I should totally clean up my purposely simple Webmention plugin first. (twitter.com/_/status/1176234110869811200)
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[fluffy] well after cleaning my stuff up I decided to make a little script to make it easier to do IndieWeb likes/replies/etc., and that ended up kinda weird
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[fluffy] at least how it appears in Mastodon
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[fluffy] because of Mastodon using the subject as the CW text
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[fluffy] https://imgur.com/a/SSirJ4a
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[fluffy] https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/4592-in-reply-to-https-queer-party-fluffy-102843819852641567
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[fluffy] of course this is a thing I want to do better in ‘reblob’ which I really ought to work on more
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[fluffy] or heck maybe this is what finally gets me to write a micropub endpoint 😛
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[snarfed] yes! you're in good company, lots of similar indie like/reply/repost bookmarklets, scripts, etc. eg https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress
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[snarfed] ...but having said that, i think most people now use micropub-enabled indie readers to do this kind of thing instead, including on phone, which generally have much better UX
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[fluffy] summary: https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/3982-Some-template-changes
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