#dev 2019-10-04

2019-10-04 UTC
wagle, tsrt^, dougbeal|mb1, freethinkingawa4, CocoonCrashDisco, drshamoonDiscord, leoalvarezhDisc4, cwDiscord[m], snapDiscord[m], TeamIanDiscord[m, SenshiDiscord[m], rittmeDiscord[m], XierumengDiscord, SirMemesALotDisc, buztedDiscord[m], AXEL-BrianDiscor, zcopleyDiscord[m, flower88Discord[, CryptoEmpressDis, jenncloud[m], ShadowLingDiscor, msena3[m], capDiscord[m], boomshroomDiscor, DamirDiscord[m], thomasbDiscord[m, nebulerDiscord[m, GuillaumeDiscord, r5723013Discord[, doodlemaniaDisco, TianyiDiscord[m], HeysteinDiscord[ and JohnnyMilkshakes joined the channel
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dougbeal|mb1 Is it valid to wrap an img in spann/u-photo? pin13 used the alt-text as a filename. If I move u-photo to img, then it works as expected
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[snarfed] => #microformats ?
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[fluffy] Yeah I’m glad to see a “web standards important DARN IT” blog entry that actually talks about the bottom-line impact.
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[fluffy] oh wow I was deep in scrollback
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[fluffy] that was re: the chipotle thing
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[fluffy] once upon a time, pressing Esc in Slack to clear the scrollback indicator would also jump you to the present time. I wonder when/why that changed.
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[jgmac1106] okay got rid of my flie extensions in my url, but it breaks the direct to archive.jgregorymcverry.org for old links, gonna just start importing using WP2static
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@mardy A simple self-hosted webmention receiver, which turns mentions into #Isso comments: http://www.mardy.it/blog/2019/10/bussator-implementing-webmentions-as-comments.html #indieweb @GetNikola (twitter.com/_/status/1180072676318158848)
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[JHSheridan] Just catching up from a few days ago... [Rose] I'm an invoice ninja person too!
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[Rose] Multiples of us! Crazy!
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Loqi [Rose]: [jgmac1106] left you a message 20 hours, 23 minutes ago: when you get a chance love to pick your brain about the folder approach to removing file extensions.
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[JHSheridan] They have a slack channel where they've supposedly been working on a new version for a long time
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[JHSheridan] I have thought of helping them out, but haven't had time to dive in
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[tantek] !tell snarfed do you have stats or estimates at least for number of IndieWeb servers/sites per year ala https://twitter.com/w3c/status/1179909748147343361
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@w3c Did you know? # of Web Servers 1991: 1 1992: 10 1993: 50 1994: 623 1995: 10,022 1996: 100,000 1997: 603,367 1998: ~1.6 million 1999: ~3.7 million 2000: ~9.5 million 2001: ~26 million 2002: ~36 million 2003: ~35 million 2004: more than ~46 million 2019: more than 1,717,077,725 (twitter.com/_/status/1179909748147343361)
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[jgmac1106] okay haven't gotten the file extension gone but my redirects to https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com are working
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[jgmac1106] nvm, now everything redirecting to archive.jgregorymcverry.com back to import strategy and manual redirect, regex and htaccess are hard
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GWG I'm wondering, would people want their webmentions or comments to be displayed with the timezone of the person who posted them?
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GWG I currently do that for posts
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[Rose] Personally my preference is "if posted in the last 12 hours, show a relative time, otherwise show the time with the timezone of the post"
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[grantcodes] Hmm good question. I use time ago, so doesn't really matter so much 😛
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GWG I don't use relative time at the moment, but might in future
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[tantek] Grantcodes it’s still worth showing the absolute time (with author’s TZ) in expanded info eg title attr
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GWG Right now, the WordPress implementation discards the timezone of mentions
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[tantek] GWG relative time ought to be shown only with JS so it’s actually accurate when you return to the tab
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[grantcodes] Eh, I think it is in a date element if someone really want's it.
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[tantek] So yes the default time display (no JS) ought to be time with TZ of author
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GWG Like this thing? https://github.com/github/time-elements
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Loqi [github] time-elements: Web component extensions to the standard <time> element.
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GWG It looked interesting
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GWG I wonder if there is something simpler though
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GWG That doesn't require custom elements
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GWG Will have to see or write
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[tonz] Personally timezones are irrelevant to me, as long as the correct order of comments and mentions is maintained
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[Rose] I personally feel that timezones should be the same throughout a site, e.g. if the post time is in GMT don't have comment times in PST
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[jgmac1106] yeah and I would want them to match the timezone set in my broswer
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[jgmac1106] I like how Known does it, after 24 hours it switches to 1 day ago, 2 days ago, wonder if it switches to month or years??? never really looked
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[jgmac1106] in the end agree with tonz almost no reader will really care so arrange it the way you want
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[jgmac1106] reader being a person not software
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aaronpk my comment timezone handling isn't great right now, I think something is overriding what i'm trying to tell it to do. what I want is the comment timezones in the same timezone as my post though.
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aaronpk my post timezones change depending on where I am when I make them, but I feel like that is the best readable representation of the thread that way
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[jgmac1106] you live in too many timezones
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aaronpk makes me a good test case for proper timezone handling in software!
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aaronpk for example fitbit fails horribly
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[Rose] National Express used to get lots of emails from me until they fixed their app.
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[Rose] You could order and download tickets in one timezone, and then they'd show up with a difference when you were in the UK. So mine were always an hour ahead.
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aaronpk ouch
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[snarfed] [tantek] hmm! sorry, no. first we'd have to define indieweb site. 😎 eg https://indiemap.org/docs.html#criteria
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Loqi [snarfed]: [tantek] left you a message 2 hours, 5 minutes ago: do you have stats or estimates at least for number of IndieWeb servers/sites per year ala https://twitter.com/w3c/status/1179909748147343361
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[KevinMarks] I said before that living in a timezone that matches utc and this close to 0 longitude hides a lot of bugs.
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[tantek] Snarfed by Indiemark level then
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[jgmac1106] I was kinda down on IndieMark at first, mainly becuase it is mixed in weird ways in wiki, but a lot of people really like using it as they develop their sites
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[snarfed] yeah i'm not the biggest fan either
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aaronpk same tbh but some people do seem to like it
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[snarfed] gamification
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[snarfed] arguably any personal site on its own domain is indieweb. which means, lots
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[jgmac1106] wondering if I would be able to learn how to add a micropub endpoint if I can ?sawyer someone into running a session...looking at wiki page may still be over my head for awhile
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[snarfed] indiemark or protocol support (wm, indieauth, micropub) will be much smaller
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aaronpk yeah, I think people would like any gamified system like that, I don't think it's specifically the way IndieMark is defined that they like
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[snarfed] right
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[snarfed] i mean the silo dopamine cycle motivates people too
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[snarfed] (not fair, i know!)
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aaronpk right haha
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[jgmac1106] indiewebify.me people love, though starting with the rel=me as first step been confusing to some
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[jgmac1106] skinner's box isn't scary because it doesn't work...it works well
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[jgmac1106] Do wonder if it is more a share epistemology among dev crowds, having a protocol to check off as you build fits a shared world view of how things work
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sknebel [jgmac1106]: there should be recordings of one of aaronpks "let's code a micropub endpoint live" sessions somewhere
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[jgmac1106] well back to migrating pages, at some point I will have to do real work today
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aaronpk actually that's a good point. we've made a point of emphasizing that you can implement just one piece at a time and get benefits along the way
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[jgmac1106] ohh yeah, remember that, good idea, will start looking for it
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[jgmac1106] thx sknebel, need to decide if it's something I can do
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aaronpk so it makes sense to also have something for implementers that shows each step checked off and shows them what's next
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[jgmac1106] yes people use IndieMark and find it usefule
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[grantcodes] There's definitely a lot of potential for more gamification there which could be fun. Like webmention and micropub are both totally skill trees that can be leveled up 😄
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[jgmac1106] and given webmention badges...justsayin
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aaronpk i'm definitely interested in making guides for this. anyone else want to help?
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aaronpk i'm thinking low tech first, just like writing up the list in the incremental order of implementing webmention and micropub
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[jgmac1106] don't know how tech works but I can help write guides and tutorials, so I'll be your huckleberry
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[jgmac1106] for brand new users I tried to storyboard a guid here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vUCtNPAr6yMvPXdquRnOC7okHJWf7pOb54PUXdssBQI/edit?usp=sharing
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aaronpk in this case i'm specifically talking about developers, not end users
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[jgmac1106] ohh those I want to read, I can test them out as audience and help convert documentation to tutorial, but can't write
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aaronpk my blog post "sending a webmention from scratch" is the style I want it in
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aaronpk but it needs to be broken up into multiple parts, and needs to go further than that does too
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[jgmac1106] heck aaronpk you could probably sell a short book on webmentions for 4.99 to 9.99 if it walked through sending, receiving, storing, and displaying
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aaronpk hah
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[grantcodes] Yeah I'd help out with something like that.
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[jgmac1106] same thing with micropub, not kidding, look at your send your first webmention post, considered canonical, do the series of blog post > to book route
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aaronpk I don't really *need* to sell a book
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[jgmac1106] no but people will pay for open source stuff if you let them
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[jgmac1106] or if feeling really altruistic donate back to collective
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[schmarty] "So You've Received a Webmention"
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[jgmac1106] and/or upsell the video series staring schmarty and grantcodes
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aaronpk "how to webmention, now on linkedin learning" 😂
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[jgmac1106] hee hee
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[jgmac1106] buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me just need to up the content for the dev crowd
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[jgmac1106] you can write lesson eight for me, " Lesson Eight: Webmentions
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[jgmac1106] Send and receive webmentions"
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[jgmac1106] would love to get that lesson to a point for end users and be able to hand it off to grantcodes and schmarty to finish the tutorial on connecting rest of building blocks since so many exist on Glitch
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[jgmac1106] grantcodes++
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Loqi grantcodes has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (46 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] build a webmention receiver in node.js, indieauth, micropub, all the parts are already done...just need to be pulled together
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[schmarty] jgmac1106 it's a lot more of a mess than that!
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[jgmac1106] learning is messsy
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[schmarty] but i agree that there is a lot out there running on folks' personal sites that could be written up for devs more easily, even if it's just to say "you will have a lot of decisions to make based on your desires for your own site"
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[jgmac1106] Grant has done a ton of work modularizing building blocks
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[grantcodes] Also some of this stuff is pretty difficult to do a technical guide on because so much depends on how the rest of your site is set up.
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[snarfed] fun fact: 75-95% of automated bridgy publish attempts (ie via webmention) fail. has held true for years now. various reasons: updating old posts and re-sending wms, or including bridgy publish links in every post just in case, or html changes, etc. not a problem, just amusing.
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[schmarty] that is soooo many!
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[snarfed] ~1k/day
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[snarfed] almost at 50k successful publishes though! https://brid.gy/#stats
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[snarfed] oh nm! over 60k! looked at wrong number
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[jgmac1106] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (81 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] guess the IG problems messing with profile pics on: https://brid.gy/users as well
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[snarfed] yeah bridgy refreshes them daily but those refreshes often fail now
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[jgmac1106] grantcodes, yeah it would have to be kind of a pathway where you trace a few common language/libraries,
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[jgmac1106] arrange into generic description of protocol, the personal decision tree and plurality, data storage models, then implementation in SSG like Hugo, and Jekyll, node.js, PHP, Ruby etc
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[jgmac1106] maybe the book is modular as well, 1-3 chapters free or one price, but the specialized guides 4.99 each, that way they can be written by people who use that pathway
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aaronpk jamietanna[m]: moving the discussion here...
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aaronpk so webmention.io is definitely doing something wrong, and I remember that code being kinda tricky to write
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jamietanna[m] Aaronpk this could be related to what I mentioned at IWC AMS that I've been seeing some weirdness, I think it's due to my author into also having a u-url
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aaronpk but also my site is probably sending more webmentions than really useful, so I think i'm going to fix it there
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jamietanna[m] Yeah
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aaronpk no your post is fine
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jamietanna[m] I've definitely seen this for other things though
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[jgmac1106] jamietanna just sent a webmention about my thinking on multiple licenses
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jamietanna[m] Ie when I send webmentions for those posts myself, I get it back as a like of my profile
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aaronpk if you find more examples please file them as webmention.io issues
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aaronpk it's likely all related to the same bug on webmention.io
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jamietanna[m] Will do, I was meaning to last night but was at an event, thought it'd be better to chat there than here
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jamietanna[m] Thanks Greg, not yet received it via indigenous but I can see it on my webmention.io/dashboard
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[jgmac1106] not sure if it works and some parsers maybe not set up for child entries, i think, don't really know
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[tantek] Definitely agree we could use more / modular guides
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[tantek] However I’m concerned about making any protocol centric, like just checking off “webmention”
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[jgmac1106] good point
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aaronpk it's more like the developer's view of what webmention is
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[tantek] We already have that, it’s called protocol test suites, and you get to check off boxes in your implementation report
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[tantek] Nope. Even the dev viewpoint should be user feature first
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aaronpk nobody actually cares that webmention the spec doesn't say how to parse microformats and interpret the comment
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[tantek] Unless you want pure protocol features, which like I said is already there in the test suite
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aaronpk developers want to get comments working, and they're going to search for "webmention" for how to do that
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[tantek] Aaronpk, I think Zegnat cares because he keeps bringing it up for no reason out of the blue
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aaronpk I think we're agreeing, but i'm saying that it's okay to call it a "webmention guide" even when it technically encompasses more than the spec
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[jgmac1106] yeah just the send, receive, store, display, for someone who has a site and wants to add webmentions...guess every thing would have to start with a POSH chapter
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[tantek] Instead of “sending your first webmention” reframe it to “Making your first federated comment with webmention”
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aaronpk that's way not as catchy tho
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[jgmac1106] jargon never improves titles
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[tantek] Sending your first comment then
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[tantek] Drop all the jargon
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[jgmac1106] guess webmention is jargony though
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[tantek] Exactly
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aaronpk I still think there is value in calling it "webmention" because that's what people are going to be searching for and that's actually recognizable
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[tantek] Then: sending your first webmention comment
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[tantek] Followed by: Updating your first webmention comment
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[tantek] Etc
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[jgmac1106] we could just start by editing this a bit: https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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[tantek] If you really want it minimal steps
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aaronpk [jgmac1106]: no, that page is explicitly not for deveoopers
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/Webmention-developer
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] we could start by editing any page a bit
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[jgmac1106] but webmentions was just one example of guides, I just suggested it for aaronpk's next book as it seems to be what all the cool kids want now
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[tantek] That’s an evergreen statement about a wiki. Not an actionable step
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[tantek] I keep hearing people want starter videos
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[tantek] Not books
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[jgmac1106] I define "book" as all the media
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[tantek] Nope
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[tantek] Because that’s not how people interpret it
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[jgmac1106] and agree, actually recording them for buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplan.glitch.me right now
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[jgmac1106] I get to see how people gloss over step by step no matter how modular and granular I go, kids asked me for videos
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[tantek] Anyway my point is that dev guides should focus on features not protocol check marks
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KartikPrabhu ha! that was "lesson plan" not "less on plan" :P
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[jgmac1106] hee hee
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aaronpk [tantek]: I agree but I also think it's okay to call it a webmention guide!
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[jgmac1106] https://buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me/ and I agree there the jargon is the entire subject and being defined okay in title
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Build Your First Website
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[jgmac1106] would name a physics textbook the Science of Movement
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[Lewis_Cowles] has anyone worked with the twilio guides? honestly I think they are awesome
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[Lewis_Cowles] • to the point
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[Lewis_Cowles] • short
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[Lewis_Cowles] • up to date
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[Lewis_Cowles] • glanceable
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[jgmac1106] Might do Physics: the Science of Movement
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GWG Maybe I should write l, "So You Want to Send A Webmention" then.
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[jgmac1106] Webmentions: Take Control of your Comments
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[jgmac1106] that is the one problem with video guides
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[jgmac1106] updating, better off recording as smallest segments possible and stringing them together. I have to mantain video tutorials for cusotmers and PITA, need a better system
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[tantek] “Get benefits along the way” as [aaronpk] said is key
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[tantek] You won’t get that from any kind of abstract protocol checklist
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Amgine[m] Present tense, active voice: Making webmentions.
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[tantek] Iterate & modularize by benefits first, then backfill them with what protocol(s) to implement accordingly
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[jgmac1106] on another note super stoked I finally removed my file extensions and am now using php for headers and footers
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[jgmac1106] thx to everyone here who helped me last few days (years0
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[Lewis_Cowles] Congrats [jgmac1106] are you using them locally, then pushing static content, or are they web-request serving?
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[jgmac1106] not even sure what that means, I write a file in sublime, push to GitHub, then use FTP to get it online, I don't do local dev environment, just seems like one extra step to maintain something no one actually reads
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[Lewis_Cowles] So its web-request serving most likely
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[Lewis_Cowles] web-request directly to a file which loads php headers & footers
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[jgmac1106] yes if <?php include 'head.php'; ?> means what you are saying
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[jgmac1106] I just started to learn PHP this summer, had to take a break under summer teaching, excited to get back to it
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[Lewis_Cowles] it does, a person uses the web to request your site, which includes the header and footer
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[Lewis_Cowles] each request
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[snarfed] oh god no don't that way lies madness
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[snarfed] (learning programming, i mean, not PHP)
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[Lewis_Cowles] I will run away now as I must eat, I love PHP & Programming in general
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[tantek] same same
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[jgmac1106] !mf2 https://jgregorymcverry.com/myphotos
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fmyphotos
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[jgmac1106] !mf2 https://jgregorymcverry.com/yankees2019
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fyankees2019
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Yankees 2019 https://jgregorymcverry.com/photos/yankees2019/housethatruthbuilt.jpg
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[jgmac1106] yes loqi optimizing img will be my NYC goal
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[jgmac1106] oops deleted my collapsible nav menu...problem for later
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[jgmac1106] didn't delete it but the link to the javascript file is now in the head.php file I call for each page. also wondering if removing file extensions did it , but pretty sure I only removed html and php...will ask smarter people tomorrow
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[Lewis_Cowles] [jgmac1106] won't help with microformats, but there is a service I'm rather fond of called imgix which optimizes images and provides a CDN. It can also add watermarks, text, basic effects. It can integrate with AWS S3, any web folder (so existing images folder on the web), google cloud storage and has an option which I expect is for specific images across properties into a single proxy
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[Lewis_Cowles] Otherwise jpegoptim, pngoptim and gifsicle are pretty good for you to handle on your machine and push to the web
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[Lewis_Cowles] just noticed Dreamhost panel has a new UI
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Loqi myfreeweb: [snarfed] left you a message 1 week, 4 days ago: sorry for the trouble! looks like granary is happy with unrelenting.technology now. haven't figured out what happened yesterday. logs do show it returned an empty response, but it was able to fetch your site fine, so i don't know yet
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myfreeweb haha i'm working on image optimizing now.. well, optimizing and extracting metadata. https://github.com/myfreeweb/imgroll
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Loqi [myfreeweb] imgroll: WIP image processing
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myfreeweb i've had a prototype of this before, but now it's gonna be good
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[Lewis_Cowles] Oh nice, Rust is amazing, but I've not had enough of a chance to check it out.
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myfreeweb so like, i store objects with a bunch of stuff for images in posts. the schema is roughly: { width, height, tiny_preview: "base64 data uri for 32x32", meta: {exif tags}, source: [{ src: "url", type: "image/*", original: false, .. }] }
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[Lewis_Cowles] I patched Jpegoptim in 2017 for a client project. 10's of GB of images processed. have you learned much about the methods to optimize, or is it a matter of utilizing third-party work
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myfreeweb (as for that: yes. for lossy: mozjpeg, libwebp, guetzli instead of mozjpeg if you have lots time lol. png is more fun, you can quantize, use a better zlib (zopfli).. in fact that's what my new thing does)
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[Lewis_Cowles] very cool. WebP I am never touching. I would literally rather not be paid than use some Google format
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myfreeweb why? i'm not a fan of google as a business (not that i'm a fan of any business) but this knee jerk "google bad" is silly
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myfreeweb webp is supported in firefox
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aaronpk it was pointed out this week that WebP turned 9 years old this week
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[Lewis_Cowles] It's not *just* that google (as with any large company) deserves extra scrutiny. I think their ChromeOS is a beautiful way to build Gentoo
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[Lewis_Cowles] > Mozilla revealed plans in 2016 to add WebP support to the organization's Firefox web browser but nothing came out of it in the two years that followed. Microsoft introduced support for WebP in Microsoft Edge recently.
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[Lewis_Cowles] 9 years it may have existed, but I'm unsure how prevalent it's use was
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myfreeweb anyway back to the more indieweb related thing.. in my previous software, i was doing media processing synchronously. the media-endpoint returned the json blob with metadata along with the Location header. that was ehh.. not a great idea maybe. waiting in the uploader doesn't feel great
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myfreeweb but i'm not looking forward to implementing async processing haha
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myfreeweb like, i would want the rich metadata/preview to show up in the editor after-uploading-before-posting, so i'll have to hook up an event stream for this. that's actually the easier part
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myfreeweb but if i post before the processing finishes, the server would have to replace the plain link in the post with the metadata. but what if the posting happens right after the server sent the event and is done with the notification from the media processor? guess that means the micropub endpoint should also look up the media in the current post against recent "processing done" thingies. argh concurrency :D
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myfreeweb i might have to formally verify this algorithm with a model checker to be sure i haven't missed anything. would be amazing to say "hey i have part of my personal home page formally verified" haha
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sknebel that would indeed be quite cool
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sknebel also don't forget the case where you make a post and then quickly edit it, fun to be had :D
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[jgmac1106] I wouldn't mind carrying the location metadata of photos so I could build cool map UIs for trip posts
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sknebel I think it's important to control that. if you want to use it, great, but it's not good if you leak it unknowingly
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[fluffy] Reminder that it took forever for png to catch on too
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[fluffy] and even when it did it took forever for browsers to support png with alpha
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[Lewis_Cowles] early IE pngfix?
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[Lewis_Cowles] ooh. Wikipedia filled some bits I was unaware of
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[tantek] [fluffy] I'll have you know that IE5/Mac supported PNG with Alpha in *2000* 🙂
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aaronpk 😎
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[fluffy] Yeah and IE5 on the Mac was ahead of its time. And certainly ahead of IE6 on Windows
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[snarfed] ahahahahaha tantek's humble so i'll call out the obvious: http://tantek.com/projects/resume.html#microsoft
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Loqi nice
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[fluffy] yeah I figured
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[fluffy] with this crowd, whenever someone makes an oblique reference to a fundamental thing that only a true web nerd would appreciate it’s a pretty solid bet that the person making the reference is the one who wrote it 🙂
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