#dev 2019-10-10

2019-10-10 UTC
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[tantek] Would be better if you could point such theme devs to a validator that could check their work
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[jgmac1106] they really aren't theme devs, if you watch the design and code channels they are very much hobbyist fooling around
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[jgmac1106] but getting default themes proper will take care of 90% of usecase (using a totally made up number for most)
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[tantek] Theme authors then
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[tantek] Yes default themes should absolutely be 100% valid
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[jgmac1106] I need a few more hacktober PRs will try one or two more. @schmarty is a HUGO pro maybe he can take a look, we get one or two correct, the rest should be easy to follow
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[jgmac1106] okay now I am not doing the photos or the email, time to go dark
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[jgmac1106] in photo posts do people use the datetime of when the post is published or when the photo was taken?
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[jgmac1106] I guess it would have to be date of publish for reader and chronological publishing??
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aaronpk I do it the same way as instagram... the time the post is published, because often my photo posts also have accompanying text, which was written when I publish it not when I took the photo
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[jgmac1106] cool what I am doing, trying to tell the IWC story in a collection of photos
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[jgmac1106] okay back to trying to get this post...sharing a link to the Google Photos folder...was slightly easier.....
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[tantek] Published date is when you, uh, publish them :)
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[tantek] That said I tag my photos with the actual date taken so they can show up in my future implementation of on this day
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[tantek] I’ve been brainstorming about a dt-creates too for capturing when a post was created or a photo was taken
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[tantek] dt-created*
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aaronpk plindner[m]: is there any overlap between the SSB and ham radio communities? I feel like there's some opportunity there
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[tantek] waits for the packet size analysis of a “modern” protocol that assumes IP / WiFi / Bluetooth bandwidth
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[KevinMarks] that was my point - the serif fonts they picked were all very narrow and light, except computer modern and the monospaced one
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aaronpk not a lot of search results
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@mdempsky ↩️ Hm, after reading their wiki and FAQ, I don't see the value in supporting IndieAuth instead of just allowing the user to specify an arbitrary OpenID Connect provider? (twitter.com/_/status/1182103872451383296)
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aaronpk WELL let me tell you a story
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[tantek] wow
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aaronpk thankfully I have already told this story so I just need to link to a blog post
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[tantek] so good
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[tantek] [dmitshur]++ you got a ⭐ from bradfitz! https://twitter.com/bradfitz/status/1182087332511436800
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Loqi [dmitshur] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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@bradfitz @dmitshur ⭐️🏆 (twitter.com/_/status/1182087332511436800)
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[dmitshur] hehe
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[dmitshur] (still catching up)
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[dmitshur] it took me a while, but I think I'm starting to really understand IndieAuth now. which is great because it means I can actually implement it fully.
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[tantek] nice
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aaronpk if you can pinpoint particular aspects you were struggling with or were not clear from things you read, please do let me know so that I can improve those!
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[dmitshur] it also means I can convince myself and others about its merits, and not just that "it feels cool"
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aaronpk if you haven't already read it, this post (should) provide arguments that you can articulate in conversations https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/07/7/oauth-for-the-open-web
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[dmitshur] sure Aaron, will do (and maybe I'll be inspired to write a blog post about it :gasp: )
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plindner[m] aaronpk: I don't know of specific ham radio + ssb support.
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[dmitshur] I have read that, and it's very useful, but what I think was missing for me were some concrete examples. I think it's very helpful to set the expectation right away: there are two halves to IndieAuth: being the consumer and being the provider. so "implementing support for IndieAuth" means very different things depending on what part of it you choose implement (first, or at all).
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[dmitshur] it's also very helpful to know at least 1 other person who can help you test it (hat tip [schmarty])
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[dmitshur] but the main reason it took me a long time is because it takes time to sit down and figure it out, and I haven't had free time and never got around to it.
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[dmitshur] until IndieWebCamp 2019 🙂
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[dmitshur] > [yesterday 1:18 AM] yes that's called the consent screen
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[dmitshur] that sounds great. thanks for confirming [aaronpk]!
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[dmitshur] > [yesterday 1:19 AM] it's ultimately up to the IndieAuth server whether and how and when to show it, but it's generally a good idea
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[tantek] what is the consent screen
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "consent screen" yet. Would you like to create it?_ (Or just say "consent screen is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronpk consent screen is the page you see during an OAuth flow that asks whether you want to allow the application you're logging in to to be able to access the data it's requesting
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk consent screen << https://www.oauth.com/oauth2-servers/authorization/the-authorization-interface/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.oauth.com/oauth2-servers/authorization/the-authorization-interface/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /consent_screen https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=65386&oldid=65385
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aaronpk consent screen << https://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157624457629866/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/sets/72157624457629866/" to the "See Also" section of /consent_screen https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=65387&oldid=65386
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aaronpk huh I thought I had a flickr album of these too
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Loqi ok, I added "[[IndieAuth]]" to the "See Also" section of /consent_screen https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=65388&oldid=65387
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aaronpk consent screen << [[IndieAuth]]
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dougbeal| aaronpk: indielogin only supports manually added indieauth servers?
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aaronpk dougbeal|: I don't understand the question
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dougbeal| Say I want to use my wordpress site to autheticate to webmention.io for a static site
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dougbeal| I get none of the URLs were recognized as a supported provider
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dougbeal| maybe PGP key authentication makes more sense
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aaronpk Webmention.io uses indielogin.com to authenticate ppl. Indielogin.com supports many different options to authenticate users including IndieAuth email, pgp, Twitter, github
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aaronpk IndieAuth is just one option and is by no means required
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aaronpk But if you have a Wordpress site then the best option is to install the IndieAuth plugin and avoid the whole rel=me stuff with other services
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dougbeal| I was missing the indieauth endpoints on the static site.
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dougbeal| I would need to create a user that matches the static site?
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@hankchizljaw ↩️ I hear good things about https://commento.io/ I’ve got webmentions but it’s they’re not as good as I thought they’d be, so tempted to give this a shot. (twitter.com/_/status/1182207424616370178)
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@jjdelc ↩️ @jaffathecake @MattWilcox Webmentions is the hero we want. https://jj.isgeek.net/2019/10/10-083406/ (twitter.com/_/status/1182212710563504128)
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jeremycherfas Commento looks interesting but the onboarding is not at all straightforward. It offers, for example, authentication with github but then refused actually to let me use that. I don't know what system it is using for that.
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jeremycherfas Ah. Commento is using OAuth, but apparently not for me.
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jeremycherfas Error: no name returned by Github
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jeremycherfas Than got an email from Github saying that I had indeed been authorised. Super confusing.
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[Rose] Ok, I think I'm not going to get a "yes" to this, but is it possible to resize a header on scroll with just CSS? There's a JS example here: https://www.w3schools.com/howto/howto_js_shrink_header_scroll.asp
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jeremycherfas You saw the SO answer, of two headers at different sizes?
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[Rose] Nope, not yet. Link?
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[grantcodes] Just css no. Not shrink like that example anyway
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[Rose] I did wonder about just visually extending it and living with it scrolling away (so a separate element below the sticky part)
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jeremycherfas https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33803945/header-resizing-on-scroll-pure-css
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[grantcodes] You could easily remove some padding on scrolling with a bit of a hacky method
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[Rose] I am definitely curious as to that
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[Rose] As it is I may end up including JS anyway, but I'd like to avoid it if I can
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[jgmac1106] the shrink element on scroll animation all had a bit of vanilla JS but it was small
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jeremycherfas My responsive menu is js, and I have bookmarked a way to redo it, but it is low on my list of priorities, for now.
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[grantcodes] That stackoverflow idea is probably going to end up showing duplicate headers. And having 2 in html doesn't really feel right.
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jeremycherfas It certainly looks hacky. TBH, while I currently have a resizing header, I'm going for simplicity in my new theme and just allowing the header image to scroll off the page. Still undecided about letting the navbar do the same.
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[Rose] I'm starting to think I just need to think about showing one image on screen sizes over X and others under that size, which will basically solve my problem anyway
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[Rose] Because then I can stick with a "plain" sticky navbar and show more information for people with bigger screens (namely my full name) but still have my branding on the smaller screen without blocking their view of the actual content they're there for.
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[Rose] Which probably works best anyway
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jeremycherfas I'm showing the same image, but less of it, IYSWIM
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[grantcodes] I made a fake shrinking header just because it seemed like a fun little challenge: https://codepen.io/terminalpixel/pen/yLLYVLy
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[Rose] Wow, thanks!
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[grantcodes] But I wouldn't really recommend it, it's a bit of a hack. I would go with your image change + javascript if you need it.
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[Rose] Well I should be able to set the image based on the media viewport size, so hopefully that eliminates the need for JS there
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jeremycherfas [grantcodes] Can you just explain, how come you don't have to say directly about scroll?
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aaronpk I dunno, after the demos at View Source I feel like css can do anything
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[Rose] I figured out of the groups of people I know this chat was the most likely to be able to provide me with pointers to figure it out 😄
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jeremycherfas I know! I keep getting these updates from Codepen that are simply beyond belief.
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[tantek] at an indieweb / distributedweb related meeting at work this week, it was suggested that we start documenting IndieWeb standards (especially W3C specs!) on MDN
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[tantek] so if there's anyone here who is interested in helping stub "developer documentation" for Webmention, Micropub, Websub, etc., in addition to improving microformats2 documentation for h-entry, h-event etc., let me know and I'd be happy to help collaborate to make it happen!
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aaronpk that's a good place for it!
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[jgmac1106] I can help with the mf2 stuff, been meaning to expand it, the hits are climbing
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[tantek] right I wanted to make clear there is both acceptance and strong interest!
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] I'm editing that page right now
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[tantek] cleaning up a bunch
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[tantek] we need developer documentation by and for folks who have actually *built* to these standards
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[jgmac1106] okay then will not edit
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[tantek] to be frank. otherwise it tends to be more theoretical and handwavy and that's not good
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[jgmac1106] I thought we did a decent job on the first pass of mf2
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[jgmac1106] and I challenge the assumption that I have not been building my web pages to mfg2 standards, weird to say hey we want help just not you
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[jgmac1106] mf2*
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[tantek] no you have been writing mf2, that's why your additions have been good 🙂
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[tantek] that was more about the other specs Webmention, Micropub, Websub, IndieAuth etc
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[tantek] which we don't have pages for yet
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[tantek] apologies for not making that clear
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[tantek] it's too early for me and I didn't get enough sleep (had 7am meeting today)
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[jgmac1106] ohh okay....my apologize for being jumpy as well...IWCs always put me behind eight ball at work, and there is still post event wrap up stuff to do
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[tantek] yup - that's a good focus, post IWC NYC wrap-up, appreciated!
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[jgmac1106] Been talking to mdn team about stubbing out each h* ...but just kept falling down the list of things I need to get to
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[tantek] ok to chat about that in #microformats too
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[jgmac1106] well good luck all ctaching up, only one week to Brighton to fall behind again
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[jgmac1106] cool
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[tantek] don't need to take all the burden yourself 🙂
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[jgmac1106] schamrty and sknebel came in behind me and helped a ton, I only got ball rolling
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[jgmac1106] sorry for idiom behind the eight ball= behind on things you must get done
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jeremycherfas !mf2 http://a32822c7.ngrok.io/grav-quark/blog
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Kaja_ https://php.microformats.io/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fa32822c7.ngrok.io%2Fgrav-quark%2Fblog
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jeremycherfas !mf2 http://a32822c7.ngrok.io/grav-quark/blog/2019-7-30-3
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Kaja_ https://php.microformats.io/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fa32822c7.ngrok.io%2Fgrav-quark%2Fblog%2F2019-7-30-3
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jeremycherfas Thanks Kaja++
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Loqi Kaja has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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[Lewis_Cowles] [grantcodes] wow
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jeremycherfas Hmmn. Checking mf2 is going to be more difficult than I expected. I probably need to spend a lot more time going through templates by hand.
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[Rose] It might be a fun session at Brighton - making MDN docs for IndieWeb. Could give us some collaborative projects for the Sunday too.
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[grantcodes] jeremycherfas: I don't understand your scroll question?
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jeremycherfas How does the browser know that you have scrolled away from the top of the page?
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jeremycherfas Is that a variable one can use?
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[grantcodes] In my codepen example? or in js?
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jeremycherfas Codepen example
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[grantcodes] It's using position: sticky which pins stuff so it stays in view inside its container.
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[grantcodes] Plus some hacks
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[grantcodes] If you change the fake header background color it may become more obvious what is actually happening
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sknebel jeremycherfas: I'm curious what you mean by checking mf2 exactly?
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jeremycherfas Thanks.
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[KevinMarks] [Rose] you could maybe use position:sticky https://gedd.ski/post/position-sticky/
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[Rose] I’m planning to!
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jeremycherfas sknebel I mean that I have been cobbling together a new theme for Grav, which knows nothing about mf2, and because I have pulled it together from bits of my old theme and a lot of new stuff, I wasn't paying attention to the mf2 while I was paying attention to look and feel. Now I want to check how the mf2 is parsed.
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[KevinMarks] ah, I was scrolled up, ironically
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jeremycherfas Heh
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jeremycherfas I also want to take the opportunity to simplify where possible, so perhaps change divs to spans where the only purpose of the div was to specify a microformat
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[tantek] [Rose]++ that is a GREAT idea
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Loqi [Rose] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (47 in all channels)
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[tantek] Would love to join you on an IndieWeb MDN docs sprint
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[tantek] I’d be down to start on Saturday and continue on Sunday as one of our “easy” projects
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[jgmac1106] Rose++
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Loqi Rose has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (48 in all channels)
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[tantek] Shall we start brainstorming a page list ahead of time? Of pages to create and or update
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[tantek] Eg https://IndieWeb.org/2019/Brighton/MDN
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aaronpk "easy" hahaha
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Loqi awesome
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[Rose] I like the sound of that
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[Rose] Aaron: Easy relative to the other projects we may have perhaps, Not was in the grand scheme of life :P
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[Rose] [tantek] Do you want to go ahead and start the page with the sorts of things we should be including in the MDN docs long term? Then we can go from there. (I figure you know better than me what's being looked for)
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aaronpk :)
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[tantek] [Rose] a page for each of the specs I mentioned above
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[tantek] Go ahead and start the list with those
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[tantek] We can figure out “what’s the right place on MDN” later
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[tantek] Plus I’m sure [jgmac1106] can provide links to existing pages we could / should update like the microformats page
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[tantek] And he had suggestions for new subpages too like for all the popular h-* vocabularies
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[tantek] We might even want a dedicated mf2 page
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[tantek] To move a bunch of the detail from the main MDN microformats Page
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[jgmac1106] Yeah the mf2 is very general. We only review properties used in the examples. On each h-* should list any properties currently in use by standard =>2 consumer rule
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[jgmac1106] Keep any expiremental properties on the mf wiki
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[tantek] Agreed that’s a great guideline
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[manton] [tantek] Thanks, I need to review the themes (and I'm in the middle of some theme improvements this week). [jgmac1106] also submitted a pull request with some MF2 fixes that I need to incorporate.
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[tantek] [manton] would be interesting to understand your method for evaluating / validating such fixes, and if you have any CI tests for making sure they don't break in the future.
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[Rose] Definitely very interesting
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[tantek] And of course, how can we help with any of that?
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[Rose] ^^ seconded
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[Rose] (I have a feeling the MDN docs will be a good starter for some of this stuff in general, maybe not specifically for micro.blog)
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[manton] Short answer: I have no automated tests for this, but I should! All the themes are open source. For example: https://github.com/microdotblog/theme-default
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[manton] My workflow is that I make tweaks to the themes as I have time, then I push the changes to separate repositories on GitHub (one per theme). Most started as existing open source themes which I've ported from Jekyll to Hugo or made other improvements to.
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[Rose] Would it be helpful to you to have a readme for each of these with screenshots and documentation for regular tweaks?
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[Rose] E.g. I frequently see questions about making light and dark versions of themes, I think I saw something semi recently on pagination.
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[manton] Yes, basically anything would be helpful. 🙂 The READMEs are very out of date in some cases. I'm currently working on making pagination consistent across all themes (with a Micro.blog setting) and adding new themes.
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[Rose] Is there an (un)official place where people are documenting how they make changes to micro.blog themes?
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[manton] Not an official place, but custom.micro.blog has been linking to some other blog posts.
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[tantek] There’s a long term minimizing admintax aspect to this that felt very necessary / relevant to IndieWeb dev: https://twitter.com/mark_riedl/status/1182307100736643072
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@mark_riedl Today’s realities: 1. Non-neural net code written more than 5 years ago works just fine 2. Neural net code written a year ago on TensorFlow doesn’t work anymore (twitter.com/_/status/1182307100736643072)
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aaronpk shoot there's some bug with watchtower getting stuck on some feeds
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aaronpk i just noticed one of my channels was oddly quiet
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[KevinMarks] It's stopped updating my granary feed of a twitter list
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[KevinMarks] It's still expiring old ones though
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aaronpk yeah i see that one
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[jgmac1106] [manton] I have never hugo themed but the pattern is discernible. If that first one is close I should be able to update others quickly
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[jgmac1106] If right, maybe a post with 2-3 minute video pinned in micro.blog code and design channel will help users
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[jgmac1106] Unscientifically going through my feed everyone(ish) uses a default theme
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[jgmac1106] Agree [tantek] HTML is most sustainable bc it can be u derstood in a tablet running latest browser or carved into stone tablet
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@AndreJaenisch ↩️ My website supports WebMentions (kinda. Receiving end is not implemented on my own yet but is using a service - gotta change that somewhen later) (twitter.com/_/status/1182389890845155328)
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Some of the themes are similar but most don't really share much HTML. I think the one you picked had the worst support for MF2, so it was a nice one to update! I've been wanting to make the templates a little more consistent so that changes across all themes aren't so tedious (but I also like the flexibility of allowing them to be completely different).
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[jgmac1106] To make your life easier make as many of your default themes share as much HTML possible, that is most flexible
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[jgmac1106] CSS clothing can fit any HTML no matter <body> type. Tyranny of defaults. Keep those as POSH as possible. Provide tutorials for those going beyond
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[tantek] Responsive CSS that is
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