#dev 2019-11-22

2019-11-22 UTC
uniquerockrz, jjuran, gRegorLove and [Rose] joined the channel
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[Rose] Ok [dshanske] and [aaronpk], teach me your ways with figuring out how to get this data from inflight WiFi for overland!
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maxwelljoslyn fsdf
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GWG_ [Rose]: Will do
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maxwelljoslyn @jgmac1106 heads up Greg, the link in your nav bar to "consulting" is broken. it links to https://consulting.jgregorymcverry.com but shows me some kind of empty directory
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[Rose] I'd love to get data from Austrian/Lufthansa
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GWG_ [Rose]: I send all my analysis to aaronpk for Overland even though I don't use it
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[Rose] GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (147 in all channels)
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maxwelljoslyn It's all well and good to use webmention with mf2 like "reply-to", "like-of", "bookmark-of" etc. but all of these are reactions to other people's stuff. what's the right way to make a public post but target it at a specific person? "person-mentions"?
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GWG_ [Rose]: I have never flown Austrian to try though
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GWG_ maxwelljoslyn: Tagging is a thing
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maxwelljoslyn actualy, maybe what I'm trying to ask is: what's the indieweb replacement for email? reading https://indieweb.org/email for suggestions atm
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mblaney what is a person-tag?
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a person mention that is also a tag on a post that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tagging action by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card / or @-name, autocompleted or not https://indieweb.org/person-tag
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GWG_ maxwelljoslyn: Private posts, perhaps
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GWG_ Hi, mblaney
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maxwelljoslyn @mblaney ++ thanks, that's what I was trying to rememberf when I said "person mention"
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Loqi @mblaney has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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mblaney ^^ that's the way to do it maxwelljoslyn
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mblaney no worries! (doesn't think @ should link to twitter in web chat btw...)
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GWG_ I should tag more
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GWG_ I have yet to figure out how to display tags
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Loqi I agree
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mblaney hi GWG enjoying your wordpress/simplepie issue? I ran out of popcorn long ago! :-D
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GWG_ mblaney: This ticket will hopefully close in my lifetime
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mblaney I'm looking forward to becoming a core wordpress commiter when it does :-)
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GWG_ WordPress tried to block Yarns for distributing a newer version inside the plugin
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GWG_ I convinced them we'd isolated it
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mblaney haha I told jackjamieson to bundle the new version!
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mblaney well done for making that work, hopefully it's not needed soon.
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mblaney maxwelljoslyn what are you working on?
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GWG_ mblaney: He was using some of the code I wrote for Post Kinds, so I spun it off into a library we could distribute in both plugins. But Post Kinds doesn't bundle SimplePie.
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[Rose] GWG: if I were to try and find data this morning, where would I start?
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jacky I want to get better at person tagging but there's a bit of work I want to _not_ go through due to syndication of posts to twitter via bridgy
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jacky like I don't want to duplicate text to have twitter-specific links :(
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[Rose] Step 0: connect to inflight WiFi with laptop
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GWG_ [Rose]: Step 1, is there a landing page with flight information on it
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maxwelljoslyn @mblaney not working on anything in particular, was just curious. but I added some stuff to my wiki user page https://indieweb.org/User%3AWww.maxwelljoslyn.com
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mblaney nice yeah I saw from meta :-)
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GWG_ [Rose]: Try the portal url + /fapi/flightData
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maxwelljoslyn Whoa, it's a whole new world in there. Like a sixth sense
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[Rose] GWG: yes there is.
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[Rose] It only shows information for your destination and remaining time available, but I'll give that URL a shot.
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[Rose] The plane is an Airbus but I have no idea what network is installed.
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[Rose] (The WiFi is part of the iPass network)
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jacky maxwelljoslyn: lol where are you?
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maxwelljoslyn @jacky Lol if you mean "a whole new world" then I was talking about the #meta channel!
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GWG_ [Rose]: I usually have to read the source code
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jacky maxwelljoslyn: ah lol
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GWG_ Of either the HTML source or any js they added in
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jacky hm, I just noticed that twitter added back rel=me to links
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jacky it's just that it's obfuscated to their link shortening tool
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jacky is debating if it's worth unfurling that for rel-me auth
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jacky what is twitter
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Loqi Twitter (also known as Twitter.com) is a popular content hosting silo most well known for originally limited to 140 characters text notes https://indieweb.org/Twitter
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jacky hmm it doesn't show up in pin13
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jacky !mf2 https://twitter.com/jackyalcine
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Kaja___ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjackyalcine
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jacky but I see it in the markup
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jacky what is rel me
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Loqi Using rel=me on a hyperlink indicates that its destination represents the same person or entity as the current page, which is a key building-block of web-sign-in and IndieAuth https://indieweb.org/rel-me
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jacky is it a bad practice to keep resolving a URI to check it
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jacky for rel=me, that is
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jacky I figure it is since you'd expect a one-to-one mapping
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jacky oh nvm, it's allowed to follow at most one redirect
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jacky this is good news imo for leveraging twitter back into the fold!
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aaronpk Sometimes Twitter returns different content depending on what is fetching it
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jacky ah the old user agent thing
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GWG_ aaronpk: I added another airline for you
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aaronpk I saw! I have to figure out how to refactor this to enable more airlines easily
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GWG_ aaronpk, you will make [Rose] very happy
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GWG_ I have to hack a solution using Tasker on Android
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GWG_ So far so good though
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GWG_ I am getting better at writing the code on the mobile fly
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GWG_ It is hard to type on a phone screen sometimes
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jacky the red is a bit harsh but https://i.imgur.com/DFst0he.png
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jacky took down *.black.af though, I need to rebuild that server
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jacky thankfully it's not being heavily relied on so no deadline
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GWG_ jacky: Patreon? Interesting
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jacky that one is going to be a bit of a hack
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jacky checking if that patreon page has a link to another rel-me that's valid
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jacky but I want to use that ideally to give patrons access to private posts
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jacky so I can make patreon a update-only channel and keep the content on my site :)
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jacky long term goals
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GWG_ Interesting
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GWG_ Didn't occur to me
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gRegorLove jacky, does Patreon let you link your homepage? I see all the social icons but not a link to your homepage
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jacky nah it won't, hence the needing to shim it by checking the other social links on there
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jacky technically, they're not even rel=me's on the page
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jacky so I'm kind of bending to their will here
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gRegorLove That's... wild
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jacky on second thought
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jacky that's going to be more complicated than I'd like it to be
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jacky the async-ness of this is not going to be simple
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gRegorLove Maybe could post on https://www.patreondevelopers.com/ to ask for rel-me, and links to homepages, hah
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jacky good idea!
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gRegorLove That latter one seems like a big oversight for them, haha
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jacky could be a way to encourage people to _not_ have a website
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gRegorLove heh, maybe. just seems really anti their stated mission of helping fund the creative class
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gRegorLove even FB lets us link our homepage 🤣
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jacky I'm kind of tempted to make a 'bridge' account/service in the interim
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jacky something that'd confirm identities via oauth2 for these services and make a stand in page that presents rel-me info
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jacky it'd be a bit more resistant to these silos but also becomes a critical point of failure (all silos being piped into one app)
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gRegorLove I like your color formatting for different types of posts here https://v2.jacky.wtf/stream?type=responses
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jacky 🙇🏽 thank you!
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gRegorLove bridge all the things!
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/53hRx0F8.jpg
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jacky maybe lol
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jacky at best, I can have fortress do a third-legged dance to call out to these services to confirm that someone owns them
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[Rose] GWG you were right, that's the URL!
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[Rose] And two issues opened on Overland
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[Rose] I'm using Shortcuts to grab the data every minute for now.
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[KevinMarks] @jacky if you use the intent link you get rel=me and hcard
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[KevinMarks] !mf2 https://twitter.com/intent/follow?screen_name=jackyalcine
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Kaja___ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fintent%2Ffollow%3Fscreen_name%3Djackyalcine
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[Rose] I hope I can do something with this data later
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jacky [KevinMarks]: I don't expect people to use or know about those though
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Zegnat [Rose]: is there such a thing as collecting too much data? ;) Safe flight!
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[LewisCowles] zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (68 in all channels)
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GWG_ [Rose]: I made a guess. But I'm using Tasker, closest equivalent to Shortcuts I have
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GWG_ I should ask about your shortcut ideas and I might migrate som8
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[KevinMarks] you can link the intent from your site and get a rel=me back (through a t.co redirect), or you can special case twitter URLs (unmung does)
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[Rose] As long as it works GWG :)
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Zegnat Special casing sounds a little like what jacky was looking at doing with Patreon, [KevinMarks]. But in a way that just makes rel-me harder to propogate out when we bend to whatever the different sites support?
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[KevinMarks] It's better if they do put rel=me on the link, yes, but we've always made some special cases http://gmpg.org/xfn/and/
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Zegnat absentmindedly checks if that GMPG page made it to the archive
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Zegnat [KevinMarks]: you have just given me more work, turns out some copyright statements on my GMPG archive are out of date https://github.com/Zegnat/html-gmpgdotorg/issues/4
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Loqi [Zegnat] #4 Update copyright footers.
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Zegnat Oh, has someone gone in to fix the gmpg site in my absence? I am no longer getting white pages :D
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[tantek] Oh? Like which pages?
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[tantek] Argh person mentions are not the same as person tags
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[tantek] Please stop conflating them
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[tantek] There are pages for both that explain differences
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Zegnat [tantek]: didn’t https://gmpg.org/xfn/ use to be blank? We had to always link to https://gmpg.org/xfn/11. It was one of the reasons I started a github repo for a mirror.
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Zegnat But now all pages seem to render without troubles, and all the copyright footers seem to be updated to 2019. So someone has gone and fixed stuff on gmpg.org
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jgmac1106 !mf2 https://jgregorymcverry.com/index
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Kaja___ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Findex
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maxwelljoslyn @tantek: ++ thanks for the heads-up about person mention vs person tag. Having seen both pages now, they need editing: the person-tag page starts off by saying "a person-tag is a person-mention" which you've just said isn't correct and which the rest of those pages also indicate isn't correct. am writing a post for my own sake & I'll edit the wiki when I'm done
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jacky what is person mention
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Loqi person mention is a homepage webmention sent to a person's homepage https://indieweb.org/person-mention
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jacky what is person tag
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a person mention that is also a tag on a post that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tagging action by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card / or @-name, autocompleted or not https://indieweb.org/person-tag
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jacky the dfn of person mention feels slightly repetitive
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jacky ah okay
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jacky I see how those can easily get mixed up
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jacky esp since person-tags are person-mention + context
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maxwelljoslyn @jacky with respect, I don't think "person tag = person mention + context" is correct either. beginning of person-tag wiki page, "a person tag IS A person mention", appears to contradict material on that page + material on person-mention page. see my post here, and @everyone please chime in if I'm misunderstanding maxwelljoslyn.com/blog/2019/11/22/1
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maxwelljoslyn https://www.maxwelljoslyn.com/blog/2019/11/22/1
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Loqi On the IndieWeb developer chat, we’ve been discussing the difference between “person tags” and “person mentions.” There’s a difference, but I don’t think the wiki page correctly describes that difference. The problem with the IndieWeb w...
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jacky maxwelljoslyn: that post is solid imo
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jacky the word 'mention' by itself reminds me of 'tagging'
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jacky like a person mention _might_ have a source containing a (person-tag or invitation)
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jacky but it's the transport versus the content
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maxwelljoslyn @jacky transport vs. content is a good way to put it ++
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maxwelljoslyn jack++ I keep getting that wrong
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Loqi jack has 1 karma over the last year
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maxwelljoslyn ugh. jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (90 in all channels)
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jacky 🙇🏾‍♀️
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mblaney I disagree, a person tag is a person mention, as the definition says. The only difference is that a person tag is also marked up with u-category. That's useful extra information but doesn't negate the fact that it's still a mention.
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mblaney The problem with trying to split them as you've done in your post maxwelljoslyn is that a person mention as defined is only referring to the markup on the page. You can't say it's not a person mention just because you don't send a webmention... anyone else can send the webmention on your behalf.
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mblaney ie a person mention is just a link to a home page, no need to complicate that. add a u-category and h-card and you've got a person tag.
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maxwelljoslyn Was under the impression that the 'mention' in person mention referred to the part where you send a webmention *is confused again*
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aaronpk No a post is a mention whether or not a webmention is sent
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maxwelljoslyn So could I think of it as "person mention" is level 1 of mentioning someone in content, and level 2 is adding more markup to make it a person tag?
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aaronpk a webmention is the notification of the mention post
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jacky wants to delete the word 'mention'
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maxwelljoslyn I think part of my struggle is that both mention and tag can be verb or noun :^(
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aaronpk Then we'd just be sending webs 😂
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jacky why highlight webmentions that contain a person tag?
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maxwelljoslyn @mblaney how can person mention "as defined" only refer to markup? the very first sentence on that page is "a person mention is a homepage webmention"...
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jacky like it's no different from other webmentions, it seems
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[KevinMarks] Part of this is merging norms from different silos. In twitter, an @ is a mention, but in flickr it was more of a labelling of presence. Twitter now has the second type when you tag people into a picture.
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[KevinMarks] Facebook has both too, and adds a possible face rectangle for the picture case. In foursquare/swarm , tagging people is saying that they were with you.
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maxwelljoslyn @mblaney whereas the person-tag page is concerned with markup
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mblaney maxwelljoslyn it's better to think of the link on the page *enabling* the mention. without adding that link then you couldn
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mblaney couldn't send the webmention (and no one else could either)
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[KevinMarks] A person tag is more like expressing presence, whereas a mention is looser - you may be notifying them, or bringing them in, or snitch tagging.
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mblaney jacky the difference is that it goes to the homepage, which not everyone supports so it's worth making the distinction.
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jacky I'm kinda confused by support then
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mblaney support as in receiving webmentions to a home page
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[tantek] yes person-tags are person-mentions, they're special person mentions
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[tantek] just as RSVPs are still mentions
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jacky what is webmention
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Loqi Webmention is a web standard for mentions and conversations across the web, a powerful building block that is used for a growing federated network of comments, likes, reposts, and other rich interactions across the decentralized social web https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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jacky I need to re-read some docs lol
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[tantek] person-mention is the more generic term that is literally just linking to someone
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jacky ah see I forgot about a critical step: "do Webmention endpoint discovery on that link"
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[tantek] person-tag is when you explicitly label something as that person being *in it* like a photo, post etc. it's a discrete UI action
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maxwelljoslyn tantek++ thank you, that helps -- wiki pictures where person-mentions are w/in text content and person-tag buttons/indicators are in separate location, also helps make diff. clear
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Loqi tantek has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (145 in all channels)
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[tantek] Thanks maxwelljoslyn. Clearly the wiki pages for both still need improving though because even experience people here are confused and getting it wrong.
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maxwelljoslyn I updated my post to reflect the 2nd round of discussion. TY everyone
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[fluffy] I have learned more than I wanted to about /shopping-cart stuff over the last few days and for now I’m just using Storenvy for https://biz.beesbuzz.biz/ because holy crap that’s a lot of work.
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maxwelljoslyn fluffy++ i like the shop, your learning binge gave good results :)
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Loqi fluffy has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (47 in all channels)
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[fluffy] thanks!
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[schmarty] fluffy++ for biz.beesbuzz.biz as a subdomain 😂
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Loqi fluffy has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (48 in all channels)
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[manton] Question for folks who have a link blog... Does anyone formalize "via" (where you heard about what you're blogging about) with a custom field in your blogging system? It was suggested that JSON Feed support that as a separate field, like on this blog, and I'm wondering how common that is. https://letra.studio/blog/links/
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aaronpk huh I have aspirations to do that for my bookmarks but mostly occasionally just add a tag with the persons name who I heard it from
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[manton] Cool. I feel like most blogging systems aren't well-suited to store that extra info. Maybe in WordPress fields or if you've got a custom CMS.
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aaronpk I would drive any extensions like this from the UI requirements tho