#dev 2020-02-04

2020-02-04 UTC
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[tantek] This looks like it'll be quite handy for future HTTP headers: https://httpwg.org/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-header-structure.html
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[tantek] (as someone who has written HTTP header parsing code specifically for rel for pingback and webmention)
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aaronpk wow
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[snarfed] oh man. wow indeed. doubling down on conneg style string parsing complexity 😢
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aaronpk on one hand it looks like it's formalizing existing behavior, which is good
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aaronpk on the other hand i wish they'd said all http header values must now be JSON lol
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[tantek] that's in the FAQ 😛
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[tantek] https://httpwg.org/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-header-structure.html#why-not-json
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aaronpk nice
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[tantek] I definitely see it as formalizing existing behavior.
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aaronpk bahaha "Additionally, there were widely shared feelings that JSON doesn’t “look right” in HTTP headers."
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[tantek] snarfed, uh what? I don't see that at all. Note that new headers can pick from a *subset*
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[tantek] that's the important part IMO. you can keep new (and old) headers as "simple" as you want from my read, and avoid having to define a grammar by linking to the section of this document that you want to re-use
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[tantek] if somehow that's not your read of the spec, I'd like to know about it as a contrary opinion, as I'd like to support getting this adopted.
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[snarfed] nah, ignore me, i'm just bitter about conneg
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[jgmac1106] Tantek moving to here. Basic idea foe the chatbot was to look at frequency of specific HTML tags like headers, blockquotes and maybe some microformats as a writing tutor
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[tantek] conneg-- I feel you
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Loqi conneg has -5 karma in this channel over the last year (-6 in all channels)
gRegorLove, [LewisCowles], chrisaldrich, [tantek], sivy, [jeremycherfas], GWG, shrysr, jansauer, swentel and cweiske joined the channel
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Ruxton how does loqi tells work algonside teh slack integration? If i'm in IRC telling to a user in slack, do I include square brackets?
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Loqi Ruxton: [schmarty] left you a message 11 hours, 18 minutes ago: I _finally_ wrapped up my bestnine mods. Details and link to updated source in my post. Apologies for not making it into nice PRs! https://martymcgui.re/2020/02/03/151833/
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swentel I think so yes
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swentel Ruxton, best of nine is pretty cool BTW!
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Ruxton cheers, i threw a proof of concept together a couple of years ago and made it work a bit better recently
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swentel Just generated my image, sweet :)
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beko[m] o/ swentel - where can I find traces on exceptions for Indigenous (Android)?
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swentel beko[m], hmmm you'd have to start an adb session for that I'm afraid - or if you report the crash, I can see it my reports in google (less ideal of course)
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beko[m] wew. last time I played with adb was ~5 years ago xD
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swentel hehe
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swentel yeah, I've been planning to add logging section within the app, just haven't found time for that yet
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swentel ah, crap that getting accounts exception :/
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swentel I really really hate one
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beko[m] 👍️ yeah. May do adb if required. I can read into this again and rooting this device is kinda on my todo list anyway
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swentel hehe
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swentel beko[m], so normally this should be solved by granting the 'contacts' permission
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swentel can you check whether you see that permission in the app settings (via phone -> settings/apps > indigenous > permissions)
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swentel oh, android 5.1.1, hmmm that's well, quite old :)
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swentel contacts permission should be implicit then iirc
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swentel either way, I've been having massive problems figuring out why that crashes, I'll do another check though :)
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swentel it might be specific bug in that android version too, I've had a weird one with a toast message on 7.1.x
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beko[m] Anyway I can not define permissions on that location. It does have already tho: "Search accounts, use accounts, create accounts, set account passwords, add accounts, delete accounts"
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beko[m] Yeah, ty Huawei :D Not gonna spend _money_ on smartphones ever again. They are _all_ EOL the moment they ship.
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swentel ok, good to know
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Ruxton swentel: why dont u lke the google stack traces? they're great, you can load them into the IDE/ADB and debug from the issue
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Ruxton Someone showed me that and I nearly went to heaven, soooo handy when you don't have contat wth the bugmaker or have too many users
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swentel Ruxton, oh, I do like them .. But I like it even more when users can debug themselves so I don't have to ;)
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Ruxton hahaha
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Loqi nice
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beko[m] I've ~5 vscodes running all the time and it's still not enough to dig into every issue I keep running 😁
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swentel I need to figure out a way too for F-droid users to report issues too, not sure if they have a service
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[fluffy] well I finally have both tables of contents and header permalinks working in Publ. http://dev.beesbuzz.biz/toc/1886-TOC-with-postprocessing
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Loqi This TOC needs postprocessing. Smartypants stuff A “smartquotes” heading This heading has “smartquotes.” Em-dashes – not just for fun — perhaps This heading has an en-dash – and maybe an em-das...
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[fluffy] I was originally just going to do the header permalinks but then I realized, hey, might as well refactor the way I handle a bunch of stuff so that I can do the TOCs too
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[fluffy] … wow loqi, parsing much?
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beko[m] nice, footnotes 🙂
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swentel Ruxton, the link in the footer on bestnine.indieweb.app to your site points to https://ignite.digitaligntion.net/ :)
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swentel missing a
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swentel euh i
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[Marlin_Forbes] cat on the keyboard? 😛
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[Rose] !tell aaronpk Have you considered subevents? E.g. an event which uses another event as its parent? Use case: the demo times for IWC Online, and possibly keynote and demo times for all IWCs.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[Rose] !tell LewisCowles any tips for creating a Deploy on Heroku button?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106] can h-events be nested? We nest h-entries
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[jgmac1106] !mf2 https://meteor-spatula-2syk10t9bp.glitch.me/
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Kaja_____ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeteor-spatula-2syk10t9bp.glitch.me%2F
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Loqi Microformats Conference
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Loqi Microformats Conference
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[jgmac1106] [Rose] they seem to parse well as children
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KartikPrabhu the issue is not with parsing since that is common to all h-*. it is more about if anyone consumes them in a certain way
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[jgmac1106] KartikPrabhu I think people more wanted to add ical integration for specific sessions and not just the entire event
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[jgmac1106] if a button was added for each session to me it just seemed logical to present them as nested, but no one is consuming them that way
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[jgmac1106] atleast not h-event many non-indieweb online conference schedule have session by session calendar integration
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Loqi aaronpk: [Rose] left you a message 2 hours, 4 minutes ago: Have you considered subevents? E.g. an event which uses another event as its parent? Use case: the demo times for IWC Online, and possibly keynote and demo times for all IWCs.
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aaronpk Definitely have been thinking about it
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aaronpk sessions at conferences in general is another use case
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aaronpk jumping to the microformats discussion is way premature. I don't even know how I'd want to present it on the screen to people
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aaronpk for example do they appear on the home page as their own events? Nested under the main event? Do they only appear on the event permalink? etc etc
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aaronpk In the mean time you can add subheadings on the event page , and you can even link to the timezone converter by building the URLs manually
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aaronpk https://events.indieweb.org/local-time?date=20200205T1730&tz=UTC
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[jgmac1106] Yeah been playing with the headings, aaronpk pics should show up without u-syndication or do it add that?
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[jgmac1106] oooh adding the converter now, would you do that as an anchor link to each session or a unique uid (if I even asked that correctly)
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[jgmac1106] or do I add a link to the converter page for each session, yes that has to be it
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aaronpk I dunno what you mean about u-syndication
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aaronpk or uid
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aaronpk so much microformats talk! The goal is to forget about microformats because the tools do it for you, so just make it useful to humans first
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[tantek] I think you mean forget about plumbing
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aaronpk In the general sense yes
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[jgmac1106] okay what do I have to do to get the picture to appear? I am seeing other webmentions
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[jgmac1106] I tried just a mention and just a u-syndication
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aaronpk Is it from the same domain as your wiki login?
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[jgmac1106] ahh, that is the issue, thx
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[jgmac1106] I will republish photos on my own domain
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[LewisCowles] Hi Rose,
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Loqi [LewisCowles]: [Rose] left you a message 2 hours, 34 minutes ago: any tips for creating a Deploy on Heroku button?
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[LewisCowles] Depends what you’re looking to do
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[LewisCowles] Do you want a deploy button as an installer for experts, as a get started for avoiding service setup (meetable approach) or something else. Also do you have compatibility goals?
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[LewisCowles] !tell Rose Happy to help and do my best to explain. Would communication via GitHub issue make it easier?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[KevinMarks] Interesting https://tailscale.com/
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[KevinMarks] Having a feed of events is useful - ics served over the web provides that. AFAIK ics doesn't support nesting, but you can define day and individual events in the same file.
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aaronpk cut out the plumbing talk tho
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[Rose] [LewisCowles] I was mostly looking at something to help people skip doing install steps on the command line.
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Loqi [Rose]: [LewisCowles] left you a message 1 hour, 45 minutes ago: Happy to help and do my best to explain. Would communication via GitHub issue make it easier?
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[LewisCowles] Which project is I suppose the thing I’m perhaps missing understanding of
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[Rose] I was looking at Known to start with, but PHP projects in general are what I'm looking at
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[KevinMarks] We did spend some time trying to turn grids back into parseable calendars in the original hCalendar work but it needed lots of extra stuff to deal with getting times and locations from rows and columns.
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[LewisCowles] Cool, I have a background task on Known installatron (mostly understanding installatron), so I could maybe pair or give guidance on putting Known into Heroku if you’d like to spread the knowledge
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[Rose] I'd like to learn how it's done in general, and I thought it might be a good hack day project for Sunday
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[KevinMarks] A session grid tool seems like a useful thing, given that we end up doing it by hand on the wiki each time. See also the calendars that Tamas made for xoxofest
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[Rose] I think putting the sessions in Meetable would be nice, but we should also bear in mind how often we adjust the times of events, a grid by its nature has rows which in this case represent parallel events - if someone has to update every parallel event then something is likely to go wrong. Which is why I would start with keynotes and demos.
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[KevinMarks] Right, but that's why it's a ux problem, not a plumbing one.
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[KevinMarks] With the post-its on a wall you change a label or move them. If there is a sessions ui it would need to fit that somehow.
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[KevinMarks] So it understanding the time and room axes is key to the ui making sense
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aaronpk I have this nested event challenge on my website as well, since I post "trips" which are an event that spans multiple days, and within the trip I might have a flight or a conference, and within a conference I might have one or more speaking sessions
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[LewisCowles] Can trips be more like a taxonomy which derive their start date from MIN(start_date) and end date from MAX(end_date) ?
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[LewisCowles] means you only ever have 2 levels. Actual events and the taxonomy. Doesn’t fit everything
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aaronpk I'm reasonably happy with how it works on my site (with the exception of how multi day events appear in the ice export which I should just fix right now)
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Zegnat I have been playing a lot with this for my life tracking experimentations. Where I would give almost anything a being and end time. Checkin to a restaurant can then tell me when I entered and left, while my eat post tracks when I ate as a subset of the first. A single visit may have multiple eat posts.
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Zegnat But the UI became very hard to manage
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aaronpk Yes haha
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Zegnat Especially when you suddenly realise you may want to be able to start and stop several things at once.
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Zegnat Those things sound intuitive, but an intuitive UI for it was out of my skill set
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aaronpk Hm I vaguely remember seeing some sort of QS iPhone app that supported multiple timers nicely. No idea what it did with the data, I think it just stored it locally
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Zegnat If you see it come by again some time, aaronpk, do let me know!
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[Rose] Just Timers on iOS
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aaronpk of course [Rose] knows
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[Rose] That's the prettiest one I know of. Indie app, nice developer.
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[Rose] Free version only supports 2 timers, one time in app purchase for more. Shortcuts support is coming.
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[Rose] shakes her head in case any other relevant information is lurking.
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[Rose] Timers+ is another one, not as pretty but works well.
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Zegnat I guess the next questions are whether there is a good way to get the data out, and then wether I am interested in using an iOS app
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Zegnat But I will definitely check out the design they went with
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[jgmac1106] any sublime users know if I can do a global find and replace in a folder for all files at once? I want to find rel="canonical"> and replace it with class="u-url" rel="canonical">
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Zegnat ctrl + shift + f after having opened a folder?
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[jgmac1106] that was it, and luckily I did have u-url on almost all my notes, just lost it in my template sometime recently now back
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (53 in all channels)
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[LewisCowles] Same in vs-code btw
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[LewisCowles] if you're on a mac it's CMD instead of CTRL
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Zegnat Haven’t used Sublime in a long time, I’m on an open-source build of vscode. But I thought I remembered them being the same and gave it a shot ;)
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[schmarty] thinking about this post from Ruxton: https://ignite.digitalignition.net/2020/02/04/98588/
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[schmarty] we seem have a difference of opinion on whether a collection of h-entry should always be wrapped in an h-feed
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Loqi [Ruxton] Thanks for your updates Marty, I’ll get them into the app. I just wanted to touch on one thing you wrote in your post, and that’s: but I don’t consider e.g. /2019/01/ to be a “feed”, Because it is a feed. h-feed is a simple, open format fo...
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[schmarty] i think: a page should only include an h-feed if you intend for folks to consume it as a stream and receive updates
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aaronpk i think a lot about h-feed is up for debate still
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aaronpk i like that definition tho
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[schmarty] so e.g. i don't want to encourage folks to follow my /2018/10/ page to see if i add posts to my december 2018 archive.
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[schmarty] and am fine having an mf2 parser come back with an items array of h-entry
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[schmarty] i have been trying to think of a citation to support "for the sake of implementing spec and having tools that ‘just work’, it should be a feed." 'cuz i think currently it's more a matter of opinion.
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aaronpk yeah i dunno about that "just work" part, i don't think there are that many consumers of h-feed specifically, especialyl ones that will break on a list of h-entrys
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[schmarty] agreed. h-feed is definitely still a draft specification. but even according to the draft page at http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed, "archive page" is only listed in the summary, not in use cases.
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[schmarty] additionally, the definition says h-feed is "for publishing a stream or feed" - the word collection doesn't appear on the page.
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[KevinMarks] The main utility of h-feed is adding feed-level information
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[KevinMarks] Name, summary, photo etc.
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[KevinMarks] Author so each entry doesn't have to repeat it.
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aaronpk There's ways to avoid repeating author info without h-feed too
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gRegorLove consumers should treat a collection of h-entry without h-feed as an implicit h-feed though, I think?
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[schmarty] they could! not clear if they should.
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gRegorLove to clarify, I don't mean the parsers
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[tantek] nah, not should
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[tantek] depends on the consuming code. such generic "consumers should" advice for implied semantics is usually a bad idea
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gRegorLove good point. readers
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GWG I think they should.
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Zegnat I would say they can “explicitly” do so when it makes sense (e.g. consumer is expecting a feed to poll), but I would not implicitly do so in general
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[tantek] depends if the reader is acting like a "browser" or not
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[tantek] depends if the user explicitly indicated they wanted to follow a specific URL
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[tantek] or just clicked on something
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[tantek] lots of depends
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aaronpk I've encountered all of those "it depends" by now
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[tantek] are they documented somewhere?
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gRegorLove I don't follow the 'like a browser" part
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[tantek] like /h-entry#brainstorming ?
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[tantek] gRegorLove when you're browsing a page you're not giving any indication that you want to subscribe to updates
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[tantek] so the software shouldn't assume / do things like that that you're not giving any indication
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aaronpk A lot of it went into test cases in XRay
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[tantek] so the software shouldn't bend over backwards to discover a mysterious hidden feed
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aaronpk Oh one good one is when you want someone's home page to be interpreted as a feed vs an h-card
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[tantek] [snarfed] that issue was about user server -> micropub -> Bridgy Publish -> snowflake API -> silo
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[tantek] not sure how that wasn't clear?
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aaronpk regardless of whether there is h-feed markup that's true
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[tantek] looks around
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[snarfed] [tantek] i was referring to your comment specifically, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/796#issuecomment-368721844 , which was about "indiewebsite --Webmention--> Bridgy Publish --Micropub--> Micropub server" (your words 😁)
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Loqi [tantek] The issue name “micropub for bridgy publish” sounded a lot like what I was looking for in <https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-02-26/1519669277072200> but this issue is clearly about adding Micropub support as another API to Bridgy Publish, rather...
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aaronpk I added a parameter to xray "expect=feed" to tell it that you are looking for a feed. there are some pages that are impossible to tell whether it "is" an h-card or an h-feed, it could be both depending on what you're looking for
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[fluffy] Woo, released a new version of Publ, which includes TOCs and stuff. http://beesbuzz.biz/articles/1938-Some-shopping-cart-comparisons to see it in the wild :)
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[tantek] now I'm very confused as to why I had that tab open ([snarfed])
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[tantek] maybe I confused myself asking about both
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[fluffy] I’ll post the announcement when I get back from the dentist
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[tantek] aaronpk makes sense! that's a good way to capture specific use-cases
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[snarfed] i filed the initial micropub => bridgy idea. you later asked about bridgy => micropub. totally ok for the issue to keep tracking the former.
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[snarfed] i was just wondering if anyone had a real world use case for the latter. ("syndicate to another micropub site" is a bit abstract.) if we don't have anyone with that desire for real yet, totally ok, just useful to know either way
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Zegnat aaronpk: that parameter pretty much matches my idea of explicitly assuming h-feed, there it is requested :) Maybe I was thinking of XRay subconsciously.
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aaronpk It's like that picture that looks like a woman or a duck
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[snarfed] (oh true, on closer reading, all the ideas came from the same shared IRC conversation 😆)
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[snarfed] hah
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aaronpk it's both, but you see one or the other depending on how you look at it
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sknebel quack
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[tantek] ok I'll have to reload that chat conversation in my head to try to remember what I was thinking
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[tantek] [snarfed] for Bridgy Publish -> micropub -> ??? I *think* the possible use-case there may have been silo.pub, which has a few more destinations that Bridgy IIRC
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[snarfed] right, which is what i referred to earlier today as "weird plumbing that's not really real"
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[snarfed] ie it's not the true end user task, just a degenerate halfway point
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[tantek] needs to learn to write better / clearer issues and issue comments
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[snarfed] eh the idea itself was clear enough
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aaronpk attempts to fix multi-day events on his website
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[snarfed] that way lie dragons
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk i'm feeling pretty good about the implementation in Meetable
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aaronpk it requires storing date, time, and timezone separately. that was the mistake I made on my site, storing just the start date as a full date+time+timezone string
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[tantek] interesting
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aaronpk need to be able to distinguish no time vs 00:00:00
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aaronpk you can kind of cheat by overriding "all multi-day events have no time". but you have to make a judgment call on single-day "full day" events then, to say that "I know you said this event starts and ends at midnight, but probably what you meant was that it's a full day event"
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@Pauho > Also posted to: * http://brid.gy (https://pauho.net/?p=168) (twitter.com/_/status/1224821012103073794)
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[tantek] TIL Bridgy is destination 🙂
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[snarfed] ugh webmention overloading regrets
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sknebel seems like Google has rolled out their ScrollToFragment thing with Chrome 80
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sknebel with this syntax: https://github.com/WICG/ScrollToTextFragment#proposed-solution
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Loqi [WICG] ScrollToTextFragment: Proposal to allow specifying a text snippet in a URL fragment
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[LewisCowles] why do php libraries get the mbstring polyfill, even if ext-mbstring is available?
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[LewisCowles] and polyfill php72 when I'm on 7.3 & 7.4
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[LewisCowles] makes no sense whatsoever
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[tantek] sknebel have you been following the competing issues on the Fragmentions related discussions?
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