#dev 2020-02-05
2020-02-05 UTC
miklb joined the channel; FineDiscord[m] left the channel
# 
jmac I need a remind on how my https://example.com is supposed to act when it gets a webmention for http://example.com, which redirects to https
# 
[LewisCowles] hmm. I got a demo of known installed on heroku. It's really bad and I'm unsure if it's supposed to look like this
# 
[KevinMarks] Did it get the themes?
# [LewisCowles] It has them. I think it's the .htaccess
# [LewisCowles] I'll try rebuilding
# [LewisCowles] like it fails on /service-worker.min.js, but the file exists in the /js/ directory
# [LewisCowles] all the urls fail, but the index.php is correctly routed using rewrite
# [LewisCowles] š¤·
# [LewisCowles] perhaps it's a plugin I'm not turning on
viaken and jjuran joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] it's not HTTP_X_FORWARDED_PORT aware (I'm patching locally)
Bohren_Gore joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] I may be able to hack it via the nginx config
# [LewisCowles] so it comes in as SERVER_PORT
chrisaldrich joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] right it's working with that hack I'll get some shut eye and re-approach tomorrow. Looks like I'll have to implement S3FS or some hybrid or get MongoDB for gridFS
miklb, Bohren_Gore, gRegorLove, sivy, wagle and swentel joined the channel
[tantek] and [jeremycherfas] joined the channel
tsrt^ joined the channel
cweiske joined the channel
jjuran joined the channel
Bohren_Gore, jeremych_, simons, KartikPrabhu and [LewisCowles] joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] How many of these apps are offline-first or have an offline experience?
# [LewisCowles] This comes back to IWC brighton October 2019 (I think).
# [LewisCowles] half triggered by work Iām doing today, half by hacking last night as prep for Sunday
KartikPrabhu, miklb and geoffo joined the channel
simons, [jgmac1106], [tantek], clxsi and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
# 
[tantek] GWG, the only chance of finishing is to externalize the list of the things you want to do, prioritize them so you're working on the thing that's next most important to you, and encourage & hope that by making it public, you get others to collaborate or work on similar things so the tasks get easier over time, collectively
# jmac Zegnat: It makes sense. On further thought it's obviously not a protocol question at all. My blog just needs to be smart enough to know that a mention aimed at http://[...] is equivalent to a mention of https://[...]. At present, it is not!
# jmac So http://[...] should be recognized as a valid "alias", and indeed it was the only schema I supported before I finally got on the https train only last year
# jmac And thus every post should answer to its real URL and its http://-based "alias" when my blog thinks "Hmm, do I actually have a post with this webmention's target URL?" So that's a feature for me to add, with my hand-rolled thing
# jmac Now I'm trying to think of the laziest way to do this that isn't outright offensive. I started with "configure a list of acceptable 'alias' base URLs, and then modify the blog's logic appropriately so that every post answers to them via webmention" and have already drifted to "let the user define a filter routine that all source URLs get filtered through (and possibly transformed by) before consideration, et voila"
[snarfed] joined the channel
# [snarfed] GWG++ swentel++ for thinking about offline first micropub! i was (am) definitely interested too, https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone
KartikPrabhu, willnorris, [Michael_Beckwit, [grantcodes], [jackjamieson], voxpelli, simons, tbbrown, petermolnar, GWG, [tantek] and petermolnar_ joined the channel; petermolnar left the channel
[KevinMarks], [jgmac1106], petermolnar and [snarfed] joined the channel
# [tantek] Ideally I want a 100% local first offline capable creating / editing / posting workflow which then āauto-syncsā once the network shows up. The presence / absence of internet should not affect UI flow at all. It should only be a status indicator (whether / how much a post has been sent to the internet or not). It should never block any UI.
[LewisCowles] joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] The web is the barrier to some of that, althought the limits are quite high (I think 50MB for cacheStorage in SW)
# [LewisCowles] YMMV because clients
# [LewisCowles] OFC. Itās hard. At work we started some greenfield offline first before I resigned and weāve got that to a nice place. Capture and prevent form submission if offline, with an event so the design can be orthoganal.
# [LewisCowles] saving forms isā¦ a thing though
# [LewisCowles] if you were to say only some parts, like text mattered. It could be easier
# [LewisCowles] what is JS-optional support?
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "JS-optional support" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "JS-optional support is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi progressive enhancement is the web development practice of building web pages, sites, apps so they are at least readable, and preferably allow for most if not all interactions, from any kind of browser, and optionally take advantage of additional capabilities (like various CSS & JS features) when available https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement
# [tantek] JS-optional support is /progressive_enhancement
# [LewisCowles] Your offline first requires JS though right?
# [LewisCowles] and a serviceworker
# [LewisCowles] so is the idea that itās a layer of enhancement
# [snarfed] heh, we've had this conversation before. obligatory, re "no one actually builds apps like that," they do! they definitely exist, even robust, polished, long lived ones. wordpress (mobile apps), quip, and more and more others these days. tantek is absolutely right that they're still the minority, though
# [snarfed] damn, https://indieweb.org/sync#Related_Projects is the closest i've found from last time, and definitely not the same. ah well
# [LewisCowles] Thunderbird
# [LewisCowles] I meant for email
# [LewisCowles] there is an addon that allows it to also handle calendea
# [LewisCowles] I just donāt like AIO software
# [LewisCowles] to what extent do you need it to unobtrusively commit the events?
# [LewisCowles] I thought you were suggesting thunderbird stopped behaving that way
# [LewisCowles] from a user perspective it probably means a toast message or similar small ui that says āMessage Sentā when online
# [LewisCowles] you do get undo for free in a textarea
# [LewisCowles] Right, but auto-syncs is vague
# [LewisCowles] Iām also not sure confirmation UI is always distraction UI
# [LewisCowles] how would you know if the events fired?
# [LewisCowles] without some form of visual cue?
# [LewisCowles] or is trust a part of this too
# [LewisCowles] it;s a critical part of the user experience of not sending things to /dev/null
# [LewisCowles] so itās the specific form of notification. Okay, omit toast insert Notification
# [LewisCowles] I do
# [LewisCowles] It says āMessage sendā
# [LewisCowles] *sent
# [LewisCowles] I like it
# [LewisCowles] if I donāt see it, I know to expect itās not sent
# [LewisCowles] without trawling the otherwise awful UI
# [LewisCowles] droid has a similar way to visually show in the thread if something is pending, sent or failed
gRegorLove joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] I mean Iām using slack because I canāt bear IRC, but itās definitely a āI wish there was a UI I hated lessā affair
geoffo joined the channel
[schmarty], [jackjamieson], [fluffy], geoffo and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# [LewisCowles] spinner in signal seems to indicate attempt to send
# [LewisCowles] that is the only UI I get until its sent. Then it sometimes shows two green ticks
# [LewisCowles] which has something to do with who I send to
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# [KevinMarks] Signal has the 2 ticks thing that WhatsApp has I think
# [KevinMarks] scuttlebutt has that kind of thing with local commit and later sync, but even more layered
# [KevinMarks] whatsapp has a clock when local only, one tick when server has it, 2 ticks when other client does.
# [KevinMarks] google photos has a cloud by pics that aren't synced yet (waiting for wifi)
# 
[schmarty] pretty sure the first check is for "signal network received this" second is "message delivered". they switch to filled in when the recipient has read them.
tbbrown joined the channel
# 
@kevinmarks ā©ļø @rektide @doriantaylor have a look at MicroSub - it may save on some effort https://indieweb.org/Microsub (twitter.com/_/status/1225149839505350657)
FrenchBackBoneDi and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 
jamietanna[m] What's Greg's chat name? Spotted that his author name on http://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fnotes%2F2020-02-02-1 is `/`
[tantek] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
# 
[jgmac1106] Thx jamietanna trying to figure out the author thing with using <a class="p-author" href="/" ></a> and still messing it up.
# [jgmac1106] I have trouble understanding that page. I am either messing up a u-uid or something in my footer h-cars I guess??
# [jgmac1106] h-card?
# [jgmac1106] What is author?
# Loqi authorship is an algorithm that determines the author of a post https://indieweb.org/author
# [jgmac1106] If you can tell me what I am doing wrong happy to fix
# [jgmac1106] Ooh oops, that needs fixing. Thanks
# [jgmac1106] And u-uid is to my homepage and u-url to the post?
# [jgmac1106] Ahh yeah. Can't believe I missed this long, thx aaronpk and jaime
# [jgmac1106] jaimetanna++
# [jgmac1106] I have had the hardest time underst3u-uid but thought it was necessary for the authorship algorithm if you don't put an author
# [jgmac1106] Understanding*
# jamietanna[m] Ah fair, no worries. Did we mean jamietanna++ ? š
# [jgmac1106] Its the best place how to figure out how to mark up a post if you don't want an h-card in every h-entry.
# [jgmac1106] Plus it is where you go when you ask "What is author"
# [jgmac1106] Yeah it does. I made a typo. Was a little confused between h-card in footer and h-cars on homepage
# [jgmac1106] When it wasn't parsing correct to h-card om homepage I added an h-card in footer to force that....but typo
# [jgmac1106] Kinda same with post-type-discovery
# [jgmac1106] Many people go there for "how to markup or publish*
# [jgmac1106] I felt compelled bc when asked that is where people or Loqi send me
# [jgmac1106] And h-entry, note, or post don't get into it.
# 
aaronpk Loqi responds with the link to /authorship, but what made you scroll down to the "how to determine" header vs the "how to publish" header?
# [jgmac1106] Agree tantek. Thus I like the idea of separate page or a subsection on h-entry... Well off to cook dinner and start chauffeur duties
# [jgmac1106] Because learners make mistakes to learn
# [jgmac1106] aaronpk I probably got there because nothing I tried worked because I didn't realize I made a typo
# [jgmac1106] My online life could he defined as the hunt for the missing closing div
# [jgmac1106] okay went through my GitHub commits and figured out what happened. I was trying to be able to POSSE to twitter using Bridgy and keeping tweets threaded but replying to my url rather than first POSSEd tweet url and made a copy paste mistake along the way as I kept unsuccessfully trying things
# [jgmac1106] that got stuck in my templates and copy pasta everywhere (if I am using term correctly) but it originated between some misunderstanding of me reading Bridgy how-to and authorship (conjecture based on time of commit and my browser history being same)
[KevinMarks] joined the channel
# [jgmac1106] tantek it isnt accidental that is where community points people
gRegorLove joined the channel
# 
@razum2um @derSchepp hi, nice writeup https://schepp.dev/posts/today-the-trident-era-ends/
just wonder how do you collect twitter's webmentions? do just replies to the original tweet?
WDYT in general, why all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkback is basically failed in web? (twitter.com/_/status/1225185479550799882)
willnorris and voxpelli joined the channel
# Loqi offline first is a method of developing a website that once a user has visited it once on their device, it will always provide at least some content (posts) and or features (like creating posts) when they revisit even when offline without internet access, using technologies like Service Workers and Local Storage https://indieweb.org/local_first
tbbrown joined the channel