[snarfed]take a comparable indieweb community-built micropub client. realistically, you have to auth online against your site and get a token before you can start authoring locally/offline
Loqi[[tantek]] One of the reasons I want to approach this from UX-first design is IDK if any existing plumbing actually has enough protocols to support this UX. And I absolutely do not want to limit my UX by what an existing protocol can or cannot do (tail wags dog...
[KevinMarks]So you're extending the use before login principle, but can that be done? So you only create an account when you want to use. More than one device?
[snarfed]you're welcome to, if you look at the broader offline first community, that's not how the rest of them interpret it, nor (i expect) many people here
[snarfed]eh. we disagree. i think it will be easier and more productive for the community to think through and iterate on these ideas without conflating them
[KevinMarks]It gets a bit tricky with something like scuttlebut, where you can run it alone but it isn't exactly useful until you connect to others. You can create stuff with your private key, but why?
[tantek]in particular offline first means don't make the user wait for some crappy network just to check to see if maybe a 10 year old blog post changed or not before showing them the cached copy 😛
[snarfed]ok. some of our disagreement stems from the broader community's definition of offline first then, which is stronger than yours, and closer to local first
[tantek]snarfed, can you cite something for that "broader community's definition"? last time I researched this there was no agreement like that, just lots of different opinions (mostly by people who don't actually build stuff 😛 )
[snarfed]so would you tolerate account first any more in offline first than in local first? especially if we're talking about apps for authoring, not just reading?
[snarfed]i just want us to be able to experiment and iterate on offline first authoring techniques without also requiring account optional, which is arguably harder
[tantek]offline first is deferential to (repeated) presumptive network access, and one form of that access *could* be an account (or not), that's the big difference
[tantek]and ^^^ please if you could with a stub. There's a bunch of direct refs to it on the wiki but apparently not a page! And I'm assuming people have used it for IndieWeb publishing which is why it's already mentioned on the wiki
[snarfed]actually i doubt people have used quip for indieweb publishing. you can publish public pages with it but in a limited way, kind of like publicly viewable google docs. it's not really a web publishing tool
[tantek]the number of existing references to Quip on the wiki make me think there's non-trivial chance that people are using it to post or edit IndieWeb things
[jgmac1106]for the wordpress, example I just recorded four videos to walk my students through, unrelated, but Automattic, hiding the free options..almost a point where it gets predatory...without explicit tutorials my students can not get through onboarding and figure out the free option
[jgmac1106]...it is still free, so I understand, but when you watch young students,English languange learners, etc navigate through 5-7 chances to pay....
[Marlin_Forbes], [Aaron_Klemm], strugee, nst^, [Michael_Beckwit, [KevinMarks], swentel, superjen96, cweiske and [tantek] joined the channel; mblaney left the channel
Loqi[Alex Kearney] I'm at my first Homebrew Website Club in three years, and It's the San Francisco Meetup in the Mozilla office! I feel like I've made a pilgrimage to a spiritual centre of the indieweb.
All of us indie-folks are really fortunate that the indieweb is ... https://kongaloosh.com/data/2020/2/5/2020-02-05--23-59-50.jpg
[LewisCowles]accountfirst-- and an example Tiddly wiki as an example of offline first, local first, non-account requiring software. There is of course the bootstrap step of get a copy, however all software falls prey. The benefits is that there is no tech beyond a modern browser required. There are many downsides (I dislike it's user-experience), but I respect the heck out of it
[tantek]nah, it'll likely lead to development of *a* novel protocol between this front end and my personal site, and feature requests for anything that's missing from Micropub, which is a good way to inform additions to a protocol!
[LewisCowles]As long as it’s valid (technically doesn’t crash spec tests); I’ve found it’s a path of lesser resistance to stay in commodity land as long as possible.
[tantek]The key is to get the desired UX working, without worrying about protocol implications. Once the UX proof has been built, then there's plenty of time to translate that into what protocol(s) may be needed and/or features to existing protocol(s).
[tantek]I tried to accommodate by using the post also in the channel checkbox but unless everyone does that, it doesn't really work. easier to just ignore Slack threads here.
[tantek](also aside [LewisCowles] using Slack threads doesn't really work well for cross-IRC understanding because they all get put "at the bottom" anyway)
[jgmac1106]what can I do to figure out why my tokens do not work to log into alltogethernow.io or indigienous? I can log into aperture fine no problem but niot any social readers
[grantcodes]I guess noone has made something along those lines in the indieweb world yet because the efforts outweigh the benefits for me compared to something that only works online
[jgmac1106]technically, and only for blog posts, Known is close, but you would have to be logged in, but if I write offline my post is saved as a draft, not logged in and you are done, and only for arrticles no autosave on anything else
[grantcodes]Actually I guess my chatbot would work offline. Just leave a note in it and depending on your chat app it will send when you're online again
sknebelPSA: if you use Wikimedia map tiles, they're currently heavily limiting external usage and it's unclear if they'll change their policy about that going forward
[schmarty]tantek: I'm late to the party on this discussion but email clients definitely are accountfirst! It may be a one-time setup and thus easy to forget over a lifetime of use but I know of no mail client that lets you open it up and get writing before you have configured an email address! 😂
[snarfed]the "first" in offline first only means first within a given session, not first as in from the very beginning, since you have to be online to install the app/load the site. (based on the wiki page and our shared understanding here)
[snarfed]you included lots more worthy goals in your post. i wonder if you might want to lean toward a new umbrella term for them, and de-emphasize local first. maybe your overall UX goal could be called something like "user first"
[LewisCowles]I’d taken it to mean the canonical supplier could go away, I supply the static assets and would be able to continue to use the application regardless of remote backends
[tantek]"canonical supplier could be either online or offline" was the default pre-internet, that's the point. You bought a piece of software, installed it and used it, ZERO dependency on the supplier from then on. Even bug fix releases were a nice to have, and *optional* (user chosen) to install or not
[LewisCowles]tantek I think it’s a noble goal. I’m guessing from what I read it will need to be siloed to a mobile platform to avoid scripting, or compromise to get undo / redo
[tantek]like if you happen to click a mailto link and it opens up asking you to setup config info I'm like what? no, I did not give you permission to start me down some admintax userflow WTF force quit go away
[tantek]maybe all I wanted was to copy/paste the mailto link? or maybe *part* of it? e.g. a complex mailtolink that had an encoded subject or body, maybe I wanted a mail client to open up a new message with those things prefilled in that I could copy paste out.
aaronpkand I absolutely would prefer to have a new mail dialog appear with the send button disabled so that I could copy the text into my actual email app
[schmarty]but i haven't taken the time to figure out how to change my default mailto: handler so any time i accidentally click a mailto: URL Geary pops up like "hello please configure me"
[LewisCowles]I think tantek meaning is because it’s not innately required to perform the desired action. It’s problematic to call it either TBH. I can think of many legitimate situations and benefits to having an accountish thing
aaronpkOf course sending email requires an account, but using the app to do things other than sending should not require setting up an account, that's the difference
[tantek]I remember when launching an app would start you with a blank document you could immediately start editing, creating. Not force you through the cognitive load and distraction of creating an account.
[tantek]so there is intention, perhaps stupid intentions, but more likely to be malicious at this point, given most such "apps" are VC funded and looking for account numbers growth etc.
[snarfed]having said that, i expect our home grown indieweb client apps here are mostly (all?) still account/site first because it's significantly easier to implement for our use cases, since you don't have to implement local storage. you just use the micropub or microsub server as the storage
[snarfed]yes, no account first (yes it needs better framing) is still a worthy goal! just worth remembering the implementation burden for context, at least for indieweb specifically
[tantek]"just" ... use network dependencies as storage = data loss when apps crash, phones crash, network goes offline etc. too frustrating to bother reimplementing such an experience. that's a non-starter for me snarfed.
[snarfed]yes! again, very worthy UX goal. in practice, afaik we have no local first micropub or microsub clients yet, which is somewhat telling. i'm all for us trying to build them though!
[snarfed]i'm still kinda liking "user first" for tantek's collection of UX goals. or maybe something else w/similar positive framing. need a good simple term for it all together
[tantek]there's the ethical aspect of "user first", and there is the task-centric/focused aspect of "user task first", where a design focuses on why the user took an action and is built to make that as smooth and efficient as possible, more than the personal/profit motives of the app creators
[schmarty]i am still pretty proud of https://kapowski.schmarty.net/ for letting folks build GIF photo posts (and even create in-reply-to) with no account. they can even save the resulting HTML to paste in elsewhere later!
[tantek]I *often* see failures to load external JS. Like every day (LieFi, underground, spotty coverage etc.). However I also see local scripts that "just work".
Loqigiving credit is a collection of cultural practices related to acknowledging and attributing text, hyperlinks, quotes, utterances to others, typically by name, as a way of recognizing their contribution(s) https://indieweb.org/credit
[fluffy]on that, um, note, here’s my ‘notes’ page: http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/ — I’m mostly trying to figure out the best balance of visibility and concision when presenting things like that.
[fluffy]Presentational aspects aside, is it “valid” (from an indieweb interop perspective, ignoring PTD) to have a post that’s both u-bookmark-of original URL and u-like-of the “via” URL?
[snarfed]in practice, indieweb tools like webmention receivers will often interpret your post as just one of those things, eg via PTD, but that may be ok
[tantek]it's not "invalid" per se, it's just not supported or even specified what should happen. and the general philosophy is, if you haven't figured out how some markup *should* be consumed, then better to not bother actually publishing it
[tantek]brainstorming about new markup possibilities makes sense, however publishing it then leaves creates a kind of "markup debt" that anyone looking to consume it later has to figure out if they should care about existing unspecified uses or not
[jgmac1106]on another question I had a thought since we can translate twitter lists into feeds but not searches, could you have a list after a feed but only serve up feeds for a specifically filtered work, like a hashtag?
[fluffy]Is there a microformat that people are using for this? like u-via or something. The /credit page just shows like… how people are doing it in post bodies as old bloggy convention.
[snarfed]tantek's q still applies: think about your expected consuming use case first, and if you don't have a specific one in mind, maybe wait on the markup
[fluffy]okay so anyway to put a pin in this conversation, it seems like it’s okay, then, to have a single post be both a bookmark of one thing and a like-of of another thing? and there’s no particular reason to have a microformat for a ‘via’?
ZegnatI can see both the reasoning for a new mf, as well as for like when what you want to convey is the idea of like-and-retweet. Maybe this is on the line. I don’t think I have run into this usecase myself
[fluffy]I assume if I just start sending out u-via mentions, webmention.io will just treat those as mentions, right? Or does it automagically propagate the u-* class?
[snarfed]hey aaronpk any chance you still have the query you ran for me back in 2017 to collect all domains that wm.io had received a mention for? would you mind running it again? not urgent!
bekoGotta admit. I touched Hugo (SSG) and it sure has it's charm. Just wonder about interactive stuff. Running a test by my migrating another website of mine.
[schmarty]beko: i'm a fan of hugo! love the speed, and power of the templating language (once i got used to it). i ended up creating a bunch of infrastructure around it to make my site dynamic (posting via micropub, displaying context for things i reply to, displaying webmentions, sending webmentions, ...)
[tantek]since we were discussing local/offline support, debating differences etc., I'm curious, who here has built/deployed a service worker to their site, and for what use-cases? Please add yourselves! (pretty sure it's more than just adactio and me 🙂 ) https://indieweb.org/service_worker#Indieweb_Examples
[tantek]hmm there's a bit more here but I can't tell which of it is running and which is aspirational https://indieweb.org/offline cc:KartikPrabhu [LewisCowles]
[jgmac1106][Rose] I was adding another show to my video page and it has me thinking, wow I do put feeds everywhere, I have rel=alternate links in my header to places everywhere, links to webpages with feeds in my h-card cuz why not, feeds for every single video show on my video page, and feeds to common hashtags in the footer of my Known blog
[KevinMarks] I'm not sure this is quite as hard a line as zero conf
[snarfed] but yes, this is all worth adding to a new /no_account_first page (or something)
[tantek] snarfed, since we disagree, I'm asking you to review this: https://indieweb.org/WordPress#Mobile 🙂
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Quip" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Quip is ____", a sentence describing the term)
[jgmac1106] for the wordpress, example I just recorded four videos to walk my students through, unrelated, but Automattic, hiding the free options..almost a point where it gets predatory...without explicit tutorials my students can not get through onboarding and figure out the free option
[schmarty] accountfirst-- I made /Kapowski work to fetch GIFs and even generate copy-pastable HTML without signing in because loginfirst--
[grantcodes] I like your thoughts [tantek]
[fluffy] on that, um, note, here’s my ‘notes’ page: http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/ — I’m mostly trying to figure out the best balance of visibility and concision when presenting things like that.
KartikPrabhu yeah no service workers yet, but definitely interested in doing those
@cleverdevil ↩️ Its still possible! Sign up for http://Micro.blog and/or join @indiewebcamp. I regularly write content on my website / microblog that is automatically published as Tweets for my followers. But, I prefer just interacting website to website using Webmentions :) (twitter.com/_/status/1225521559168835585)