#dev 2020-02-19

2020-02-19 UTC
Nuve, [chrisaldrich], [tantek], KartikPrabhu and [Michael_Beckwit joined the channel
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jacky hmm re: https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/cd63a8af-cc56-4750-b6da-0d0cf0f23490, I don't see my photo appear at https://2020.indieweb.org/austin
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Loqi Going to be heading into town just for this event!
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jacky do I have to make sure not to add text inside `u-author`?
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jacky hmm nope
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jacky looking at aaronpk's rsvp, I _have_ to add it
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aaronpk lemme check
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aaronpk weird
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aaronpk oh it might be getting tripped up on your home page
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aaronpk hm this looks like it _should_ work
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aaronpk yeah so for some reason it's not parsing your home page as an h-card
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aaronpk but looking at it with my eyes your home page mf2 looks fine and I should fix xray to handle this properly
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aaronpk thanks for giving me another project jacky 😂
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jacky haha my fault!
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jacky I was just about to add the u-photo to the page tbh
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jacky it could be a potential parsing issue with the image since it passes through my web server
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aaronpk nah it's just not finding your author info
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aaronpk this is what xray thinks about it https://xray.p3k.app/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fv2.jacky.wtf%2Fpost%2Fcd63a8af-cc56-4750-b6da-0d0cf0f23490
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aaronpk notice the author property is totally gone!
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aaronpk I think because it tries to fetch your home page and then because it thinks your home page is a feed it discards that value
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aaronpk i'm adding a test for this and will fix it
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jacky ooooh interesting
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jacky hmm this is making me want to have a dedicated author page
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jacky _kinda_
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aaronpk nah
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aaronpk your markup is good
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jacky exhales
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aaronpk this does beg the question of how to fix this in xray tho... cause it turns out the same URL is actually something different depending on what you're looking for
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aaronpk if I expect to find a feed, your home page is a feed. if I expect to find an author h-card, your home page is an h-card
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aaronpk so there's no one "correct" answer for what your home page is
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aaronpk ohhh
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aaronpk I have code in here that's trying to handle this case already
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aaronpk okay this is probably an easier fix than I thought. it turns out it's because your author URL has no slash, and xray was never set up to handle that case
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aaronpk okay this is probably an easier fix than I thought. it turns out it's because your author URL has no slash, and xray was never set up to handle that case
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aaronpk oops wrong window
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aaronpk OKAY
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aaronpk so
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aaronpk there is a problem with xray, which I am fixing... BUT
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aaronpk that doesn't actually solve this
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aaronpk xray follows https://indieweb.org/authorship-spec#Algorithm almost exactly (it has a few additions after step 7)
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aaronpk we're in step 7 on your site
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aaronpk but your site does not match case 7.2 or 7.3 because there is no uid property or rel=me
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aaronpk so jacky... if you either add u-uid next to that u-url on your home page h-card, OR add rel=me to that URL, it will work
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aaronpk ALTERNATIVELY, this is an issue with the authorship algorithm and it should handle your existing markup
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aaronpk i'm going to capture this as an issue on github and we can talk about it there. I feel like your markup is reasonable as is, so i'm hesitant to suggest that you change it
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aaronpk I have already implemented a fix in xray for this case I am going to propose in the authorship algorithm
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aaronpk not going to deploy that right now tho
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aaronpk *whew*
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/authorship/issues/3
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Loqi [aaronpk] #3 Step 7 when there is no uid or rel=me?
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aaronpk jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (75 in all channels)
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aaronpk unfortunately, I don't think I want to push this change out live just yet, until I get some feedback on that issue
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aaronpk so for now, no photo on your rsvp sorry
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[tantek] is this like the problem on mine too?
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aaronpk oo let me check
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aaronpk hm no you have an embedded h-card in your entries
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aaronpk this is the case when there is no h-card, just a u-author property that is a url
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[tantek] so I'll insist once again that no url should be needed to display name and photo
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aaronpk your h-card is just missing a url property, which xray could care less about. it's the RSVP display that's not handling that
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[tantek] that should literally be the easiest case. if name render name. if photo render photo. if url, link them to the url.
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aaronpk I think I did that on the 2020 site
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[tantek] not sure how the logic can be more complicated than that, like how does this go wrong, and can we document the proper logic on any kind of response display so this "just works" instead of people overthinking/overcodingit?
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aaronpk speaking of which are you coming to austin? I don't see you listed here in any section! https://2020.indieweb.org/austin
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Austin
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[tantek] yes my RSVP is there it is just not showing my name or photo 😛
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aaronpk oh it's not fixed here! you're the invisible one!
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aaronpk I coulda sworn I already made this change
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[tantek] right!
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[tantek] time for another test case 😄
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aaronpk oh I see what happened
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aaronpk *gRegorLove* fixed this already on the 2019 site, but I had already made the 2020 site before that, so it has the old code
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aaronpk so I should be able to just copy that template over
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aaronpk boom
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aaronpk so I will say, making this work definitely requires planning up front
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aaronpk like being aware of all the combinations of available properties and acting accordingly
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aaronpk (name,photo,url), (name,url), (name,photo), (photo,url), (name), (photo), (url), none
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aaronpk if you don't plan for that up front, you will very likely end up missing one or two combinations
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[tantek] I'm not sure I agree with that, I think it's a matter of coding modularly or coding monolithically
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aaronpk I think that is a different way of saying the same thing
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[tantek] no I'm specifically saying coding modularly means you don't have to be aware of all possible combinations
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[tantek] I'm saying don't overplan like that up front, instead, code minimally modularly instead of assuming you have a "full world view understanding" and design a master plan for everything fitting together
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aaronpk I don't mean iterating over every combination
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aaronpk but you have to know that all combinations could exist
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[tantek] I suppose I'm saying that by saying don't make assumptions
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[tantek] between properties
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aaronpk gregor's solution is good, he has a placeholder for each thing that will be displayed in the template, then sets each from one of two sources
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/2020.indieweb.org/blob/master/templates/show-rsvps.php#L19
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[tantek] that's what I mean by modularly, consider each piece independently to start with so that at a minimum all the simple cases "work" instead of failing unexpectedly because you assumed something would be there that wasn't
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[snarfed] ^ jamietanna and i had to iterate on this exact problem for meetup bridgy publish recently. i pushed for not requiring anything. it ended up requiring u-url, which is not ideal, but we'll work on it. https://github.com/snarfed/granary/pull/190#discussion_r379937354
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[tantek] you cannot predict what "all combinations" exist so don't bother trying to, or in particular trying plan for them, that's my point. at any point a new property could be added and then there are more combinations than you ever thought existed before and you haven't planned for
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@howthebodyworks ↩️ Heheh. Indeed. My relationship with social media is .. intermittent. And my relationship with Webmention is triaged into the indefinite future. V. impressed at the multitasking implied by your web presence. (twitter.com/_/status/1229984614564843521)
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jacky aaronpk: got it!
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@ryokost 充電用にマグネットのMicroSUBケーブル買おうと思ったんだけど、評価がどれもいまいちだなぁ・・・。 (twitter.com/_/status/1230015811777024001)
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GWG I am thinking of writing an extended version of the PHP datetime class for a project.
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GWG I need to consistently break timestamps into component pieces and it seems like adding it to an inherited class might be cleaner than passing the datetime object into a variety of different conversion options
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[datashaman] Laravel uses Carbon which is greta
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[datashaman] great 😛
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[datashaman] https://carbon.nesbot.com/
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GWG I have seen it, but it may be overkill for what I need
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GWG I need to break apart a timestamp into components for a date time picker then merge them back together... including a timezone picker.
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GWG So there are some tweaks around that I can put into a simple inherited class
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GWG So minor behaviorial changes
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jacky going to push my fix and then resyndicate
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GWG I seem to spend a lot of time on time
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jamietanna[m] Snarfed that's odd, I was sure I'd tried using your minimal example and it worked 🤔
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[KevinMarks] Why is datetime-local under implemented, especially by Mozilla? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/input/datetime-local
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[KevinMarks] I need this, and really don't get why I am now library wrangling
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[tantek] Is there a Bugzilla bug linked? I can look into it
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[KevinMarks] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=888320 looks like prioritization (7 year old bug)
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GWG Why is time handling such a pain?
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[KevinMarks] because time zones are arbitrary. The safest way to deal with it is to store time and the numeric timezone offset. Anything else is dependent on a time-dependent mapping table.
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[KevinMarks] a future time in a named timezone is dependent on legislative changes that haven't happened yet
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[KevinMarks] so maybe storing the named timezone is useful for those, but for the past storing offset is safest, as the mapping tables don't always preserve history
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[KevinMarks] The EU is set to abolish summer time soon, with countries picking which of the 2 zones to settle on. So that's going to be fun.
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[KevinMarks] Another fun one is Australia changing the switchover date depending on sporting events
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swentel well, normally we all will use the same zone
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swentel not sure what the UK will do though now that they're out ;)
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[KevinMarks] the stupidest possible option I expect
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swentel yeah, they should decided consistent now hehe
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swentel *decide
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[snarfed] jamietanna huh, really? my minimal example doesn't have u-url, but the granary meetup code (now) requires it
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@aswath Why is "guest access" still a news item? Isn't it part and parcel of #WebRTC? But what is newsworthy is that such access is not authenticated, though it is so simple to do. #Indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/1230148584810729472)
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[manton] Wanted to bring up an issue here and mention @mblamey if he's active, because I think he demonstrates how reposts can cause problems when essentially quoting an entire blog post: https://mblaney.xyz/2020-02-15-Finding_the_things_that_you_love
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[manton] This is documented on /repost too under "blogspamming", but I'm not sure there have been any good guidelines beyond that.
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[snarfed] jamietanna you're right though, it does seem to be working. not sure how, but no matter. sorry if i misspoke!
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aaronpk ooh yeah there are a couple things wrong with that
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[snarfed] (btw, we can improve the "no in-reply-to found" error msg when the in-reply-to exists but isn't a meetup event - eg plug https://snarfed.org/rsvp.html into https://brid.gy/meetup/7199313 - but that's minor)
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Loqi I'm attending.
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aaronpk i do think a blog post is the one exception where a repost should not actually re post the entire content (although tumblr would disagree with this)
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aaronpk but i think more importantly, a repost should clearly show the original author of the post, and barely show the person who reposted it
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aaronpk and that's true with a repost of any post
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aaronpk someone looking at a repost should never have to think twice about who the original author is
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aaronpk now whether you think it's "fair use" to repost someone's entire blog post is a different issue, but the attribution issue is pretty straightforward
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aaronpk reading the /repost page, i feel like it's pretty out of date. we do have many more examples and could extract some display guidance from those now
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[manton] Agreed that the most important thing is not to confuse people who are just finding the web site and not sure who wrote the post. I think quoting something in its entirety only makes the problem worse, but it's a secondary issue.
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[manton] Or rather, a separate issue.
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aaronpk for example i replace where my own photo would be with the photo of the person i'm reposting, also the name and url: https://aaronparecki.com/2019/05/11/3/ so I don't think there would be any confusion from someone looking at this repost as to who the author is
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aaronpk i do also show the contents of posts I *like*, which is another debatable point, but I like it. and if I repost or like an article, I show only the name of the post rather than the full contents https://aaronparecki.com/2020/01/31/5/
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[manton] Yeah, that serves almost like a cached copy of what you're reposting. Do you ever repost much longer articles? Maybe the wiki guidelines should have a simple rule of thumb that if you're reposting something longer than tweet-length, please choose a paragraph to quote or just include a link.
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[manton] (Sorry, typing at the same time. You answered my question.)
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aaronpk 👍
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sknebel if it's a quote, should it be a repost?
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aaronpk yeah that starts to blur the line between repost and something else
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sknebel e.g. there was the discussion of a planet (which typically shows full posts) would repost
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aaronpk as soon as the thing on your site is not a 1:1 representation of the original, then you've put some amount of editorial thought into it, and it's no longer a repost
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sknebel as an example of large-article reposts
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sknebel s/of/if
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aaronpk so i feel like showing just the name of the post is a reasonable 1:1 representation of the original, but showing a snippet is not
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[manton] That makes sense. Personally I don't like reposts, so I would also lean toward quoting. But for people who do want to use reposts, hopefully the guidelines can point people in the right direction to avoid confusion.
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[tantek] aaronpk, manton, great thinking here on /repost, please consider adding these thoughts, even copy/pasting unstructured to /repost#Brainstorming
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[tantek] this is exactly the kind of user-centric, author-respectful design thinking we should capture
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[tantek] it's the "hard stuff" that goes above and beyond "just" implementing microformats for repost etc.
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[tantek] super important
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[tantek] aside (sorta), fascinating thread here by Cory Doctorow that's another aspect of indie dev-ness, the right to repair (feel very self-empowering / self-agency related) https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1230141625105440770
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@doctorow How Ios has turned into adware https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ The whole basis of Ios is not "walled garden" but "benevolent dictatorship." 1/ (twitter.com/_/status/1230141625105440770)
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[manton] Yep. I can add a couple notes to that page. This particular example had kicked off a discussion on Micro.blog about "theft" of people's content, and I'd hate for that to be a widespread feeling when someone has good intentions in reposting.
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[tantek] [manton] definitely link to that discussion if you can! that's a great way to help educate developers on the real impacts of their design choices
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[manton] Looks like Aaron beat me to adding a link to the discussion. I just added a little more text with summary of what we've talked about.
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[tantek] aaronpk++ manton++
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Loqi manton has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (58 in all channels)
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Loqi aaronpk has 56 karma in this channel over the last year (207 in all channels)
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aaronpk I'd be curious to see the discussion happening on micro.blog too. I don't think it's made it to my timeline
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aaronpk That iOS thread is interesting, I haven't experienced any of that with my phone. The only thing I pay for is iCloud storage for phone and photo backups.
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[jgmac1106] interesting difference, on Bridgy you can have your url anywhere in the link or bio field, to log into telegraph your link has to be in the link field
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[tantek] It feels like another source of silo-ization / silo-entrapment that's worth indiewebifying, defensively
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[tantek] feels [jgmac1106] maybe replying to scrollback convo
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aaronpk repost << thread: https://micro.blog/vasta/8409005
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Loqi ok, I added "thread: https://micro.blog/vasta/8409005" to the "See Also" section of /repost https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68478&oldid=68476
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[jgmac1106] no didn't realize an in depth convo was happening, I would have waited
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[jgmac1106] just something I noticed now, I was playing around yesterday to see if I could use Bridgy to POSSE something from a site hosted on Glitch, forgot to change back my url
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GWG I am confused
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GWG A repost is supposed to be a 100% republish, not a summary, isn't it?
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[LewisCowles] iOS & Android currently suck
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[LewisCowles] I build an app using a webkit view, and an android equivalent for android
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[LewisCowles] android needs Java code added to cope with uploads (WTAF)
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[LewisCowles] iOS needs to be told how to save cookies, in a webkit browser
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[LewisCowles] and now I find android needs a polyfill for the in-app browser component to use location in the same way that the chrome app on android can
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[LewisCowles] this isn’t a device limitation, it’s a circus for devs to jump through
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[tantek] [LewisCowles] that sounds worthy of a brief critical blog post based on personal experience 🙂
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[LewisCowles] not to mention the pain of swift + android + everything else
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[LewisCowles] I will write something up
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[LewisCowles] I may have to edit it a lot
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[tantek] [LewisCowles] here is the contrary opinion you may want to consider replying to: https://twitter.com/RickByers/status/1229577039889489921
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@RickByers @othermaciej @johnwilander Matt Bolohan, one of their most senior engineers (a former true believer in the mobile web) said: "It's sad, but when building for iOS instead of the web, it's so nice to feel like I'm not fighting the platform all the time anymore". 2/ (twitter.com/_/status/1229577039889489921)
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[tantek] "circus for devs to jump through" sounds like a tight summary 🙂
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[LewisCowles] > it’s so nice to feel like I’m not fighting the platform all the time anymore”
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[LewisCowles] 30 minutes to an hour to get approval to internally distribute something
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[LewisCowles] over a day to get approval to distribute it outside of their garden
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[LewisCowles] > £100 entrance fee to be rejected because someone can’t, won’t scroll down and click a big green login button
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[LewisCowles] So much rage, it might be better off if I cool off before writing anything
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[tantek] write locally first, edit when cooled off 🙂
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[tantek] good to capture the full depths of your frustrations
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[LewisCowles] It reminds me of Visual Basic 6 + MFC, except harder and 20 years on
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[tantek] The key is
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[tantek] Don't post angry 🙂
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Thanks for commenting. I felt like the conversation was starting to make too many assumptions and I didn't want it to go off the rails into "piling on" when someone has good intentions.
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[tantek] [LewisCowles] you're also welcome to document your personal Android dev experience in /Android#Criticism
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[LewisCowles] well it’s both platforms, but they are broken in non-symmetric ways
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[LewisCowles] android has a tiny barrier to entry, and I like some of what they’ve done
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MrETH Hello ppl!! OMG there is free money and Bitcoin here!! : https://freebitco.in/?r=599908
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[LewisCowles] intents are very web-like. I described them as events, but for an OS that learned nothing from interop
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[LewisCowles] Maybe a series of micro-posts
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[Michael_Beckwit we have some Spam, for whoever can clean that up
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Loqi ETH has -1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] ETH--
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[tantek] Bitcoin--
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Loqi Bitcoin has -1 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] [manton] kinda feel like that was the internetarchive version of dunktweeting, let me save this page forvever so the world can remember what you did
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[tantek] [Michael_Beckwith] do you have a few minutes? You can help with that clean up! See: https://indieweb.org/IRC#How-to_remove_spam
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[tantek] MrETH--
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Loqi MrETH has -1 karma over the last year
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Yeah, I'm not happy about that. I think the whole thing was a misunderstanding.
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[jeremycherfas] The discussion on m.b is interesting, in that among the sane comments there are contributions that seem determined to attribute malice. Which is the first time I’ve seen that on m.b
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[Michael_Beckwit noted, thanks
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[tantek] [Michael_Beckwith] they also spammed #microformats
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[manton] In the IndieWeb community, we see "repost" and know what it means, even if the implementation details vary. But for someone else, they might see just copying content, especially since spammers have trained us to be suspicious of this kind of thing.
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[jgmac1106] yeah.....so many spam blogs are just rss feeds of other's content
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[jeremycherfas] To be honest, I’ve never quite seen the value of a repost on my own site. What do I gain, over and above a cache of the content? But that is my personal view.
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[jgmac1106] yeah..I don't repost, I retweet still on twitter as a h/t but no value to me in owning those
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[jgmac1106] [manton] would it be too forward of me to post a link to the community guidelines: https://help.micro.blog/2017/community-guidelines/ and suggest we all try to improve the space through intentionally hospitable criticism?
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[jeremycherfas] Not at all.
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GWG The first conversation I had in here was about repost vs bookmark vs like
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[KevinMarks] The value of a repost is telling your public that you thought something was worth seeing. So for a longer piece a summary or pull quote is better. For a one liner, not showing or inline is more annoying due them
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GWG I think it is relevant
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GWG [KevinMarks]: Someone told me early on that was a bookmark
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GWG That the term share was too generic
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GWG Then I was told bookmark was the same as linkblog
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[jgmac1106] I like bookmarks
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GWG My point is I'm still confused
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[KevinMarks] The thing mastodon does is showing the original author plus your icon for a repost is good imo
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GWG And I want to post articles I think others might like to read
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GWG I haven't even started on read posts
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[KevinMarks] Different places have different conventions
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[KevinMarks] Huffduffer.com or tumblr have a big repost culture. Twitter too, but because tweets were small. Now they are often threads a retweet can be more like a pull quote
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GWG [KevinMarks]: I haven't figured out what my site is
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GWG I really hoped some developments would help me
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[jgmac1106] Steal the line from [tantek] Your name is david.shanske.com but the dots and coms are silent
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[tantek] jeremycherfas, presumably /repost#Why answers your question of "[What is] the value of a repost on my own site[?]"
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[tantek] GWG, did you ever resolve the difference between /like and /favorite? cc: [schmarty] :troll:
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GWG [tantek]: I liked acegiak's definition, but no
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[schmarty] hides
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GWG Acegiak used to use like for specific urls, and favorite for concepts
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GWG Such as.. I like schmarty's post... I favorite Adafruit
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GWG [tantek]: Do you remember our first conversation on that topic?
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[tantek] was it in NYC?
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[jgmac1106] https://chat.indieweb.org/2014-04-02/1396479382000000
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Loqi [GWG] I like to bookmark things to read at lunch though
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GWG https://chat.indieweb.org/2014-04-26/1398549066000000
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Loqi [snarfed] tantek: ah, got it. yeah, that's pfefferle and acegiak, maybe with light nudging from me. but you're right, u-favorite-of doesn't (or shouldn't) really exist in general
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[jgmac1106] https://chat.indieweb.org/2014-06-09#t1402283873000000
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Loqi [GWG] acegiak: A favorite is a like, a linkblog/bookmark doesn't imply anything
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GWG See?
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GWG Nearly 6 years
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[jgmac1106] Do you like soda? Yes, but is Diet Coke your favorite? How can one have a favorite post when one does not know what someone may post tomorrrow,
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[jgmac1106] !mf2 https://jgregorymcverry.com/poetryportpoems
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fpoetryportpoems
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GWG What is a bookmark?
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Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is primarily comprised of a URL, often title text from that URL, sometimes optional text describing, tagging, or quoting from its contents https://indieweb.org/bookmark
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[jgmac1106] oooh need to remove the p-names on upcoming days
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[jgmac1106] I think making a calendar view of my notes maybe my weekend hack goal
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GWG Maybe I should focus on how to present timezones
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GWG Worry about reposts another day
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] and this is why various silos converged on "like" including renaming favorite to like, because it is a lighter weight response that encourages more use
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[tantek] reposts are hard. grateful for the documentation of discussions
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jacky I still think having URLs be the way to do things over intents would be more handle
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[tantek] jacky, context?
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jacky oh just random
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jacky well not entirely
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jacky I was opening a link to another site
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jacky and it kept encouraging me to open their native app
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jacky despite the fact that the web interface was just fine
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[tantek] is this bad enough to be considered a dark pattern?
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[tantek] I'm wondering if we should document it as something silos are doing, specifically to document how it *should work* instead, and the fact that IndieWeb sites are doing it better.
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[tantek] like with screenshots and such
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[tantek] jacky, that's related to the doctorow thread I posted above
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@eleven_ty ↩️ @calum_ryan @Netlify @hankchizljaw’s hylia is the closest, but I don’t think it _quite_ has webmentions yet https://hylia.website/ (twitter.com/_/status/1230228423664119808)
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[jeremycherfas] Nope. Those reasons might be ok for other people, but if I want to agree with, share or point at something, then that’s what I do.
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[jgmac1106] JeremyCherfas++
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Loqi JeremyCherfas has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (29 in all channels)
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[tantek] [jeremycherfas] I appreciate your perspective on reposts, and I would expect there are likely at least a few (perhaps quiet) others who would agree. Perhaps it's worth adding a /repost#Why_not section to describe why *not* to use reposts and what to use instead
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[tantek] er, use/publish
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