#dev 2020-06-21
2020-06-21 UTC
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gRegorLove Hm, /Fathom says there's a self-hosted version but I can't seem to find it on their site
# gRegorLove Fathom << https://github.com/usefathom/fathom
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/usefathom/fathom" to the "See Also" section of /Fathom https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70437&oldid=69043
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@kixiQu ↩️ 2. webmentiond! it's a standalone go server that stores webmentions in a sqlite database and hosts some related utilities. https://github.com/zerok/webmentiond (twitter.com/_/status/1274527438983188480)
# @kixiQu ↩️ 1. let nginx toss incoming webmentions into a file! seems like this could be integrated in a cool way with a system that automatically builds this into static site content that could be hosted in s3 or wherever... http://superkuh.com/blog/2020-01-10-1.html (twitter.com/_/status/1274527437322285057)
# @kixiQu update: since I complained about #webmentions yesterday after a fruitless evening of research, let me share the best two resources I found today: (twitter.com/_/status/1274527436537905152)
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webmention implementations" yet. Would you like to create it?_ (Or just say "webmention implementations is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] Webmention implementations are /Webmention-developer#Implementations
# [tantek] vilhalmer perhaps add it to https://indieweb.org/Webmention-developer#Handling ?
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superkuh Oh. Did my original wiki addition about it get removed?
# superkuh Ah, no. It's there, just a link now.
# superkuh There's were I put it.
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# [georgenancejr] Hey guys , just curious , how many of you hide the visual element of your h-card ?
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# Loqi iOS is the operating system that runs on the Apple iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch https://indieweb.org/iOS
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# Loqi Android is an open source operating system for mobile devices (AOSP) combined with a set of proprietary cloud services provided by Google, which some use to post to their IndieWeb sites https://indieweb.org/Android
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "NativeScript" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "NativeScript is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "React Native" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "React Native is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky !tell swentel it begins! https://github.com/swentel/indigenous-android/issues/379 I'll begin working on this _slowly_ because I've finished sketching out what my idea for a mobile IndieWeb experience would look like but I'm also using this as a chance to contribute :)
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Zegnat Not sure about the one-right-way. (Other than copying whatever WordPress has, because the more websites are exactly the same, the easier it is to browse the web ;)) But you can use something like https://github.com/matatk/landmarks to test navigating your own site through accessibility landmarks (those that are created by using elements other than div)
# Loqi archive in the context of the indieweb refers to date-grouped (often monthly) sets of posts (AKA personal historical archives, a common form of navigation), but can sometimes mean archival copy, a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time https://indieweb.org/archives
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archived posts" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "archived posts is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi Logstore is an endpoint for storing and retrieving logs from an indieweb site https://indieweb.org/logstore
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[jgmac1106] my rules of accessibility, if your HTML is good and proper, you don't style with Headers (problem I see teachers doing the most in WYSIWYG editors you are fine
# [jgmac1106] I do use new semantic organizing tags like article and section....but that is more for me...easier to see the legos when they are different colors rather than just all painted div
# [jgmac1106] though for some reason I can't figure out how selectors cascade correctly and often fall back on divs...because article, footer, I mess up when trying to style
# [jgmac1106] probably my ignorance
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "deleted posts" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "deleted posts is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indieweb.org/deleted
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archived post" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "archived post is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek] archived post is a feature on some [[social media]] silos that allows a user to make a post private only to themselves, removing it from their feed / stream / timeline or other listings of their posts.[[Instagram]] supports arching posts. No known IndieWeb Examples.
# [jgmac1106] also in terms of forums when it is "archived" it usually means post is closed for further comments
# [jgmac1106] so I wonder does an archived post lose its webmention endpoint....doesn't have to....that would just be the equivalent
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petermolnar re landmarks: the part that's still not clear to me is ok, the page (as in html document) should have semantic structuring, but should that cascade? Should (not could, should) <main> have <header>, <footer>, and another <main> or <article>? Etc.
# petermolnar and I still don't know is comments are <section> or <aside>, for example
# petermolnar alternatively I'll stick to the very minimum, eg. 1 nav, 1 main, 1 footer, and that's it.
# petermolnar [jgmac1106]: I've read that, and many others. The questions still stand.
# [jgmac1106] then it sounds like it is yours to answer...isn't a right or wrong way. When I build article cards I will sometimes use headers and footers
# [jgmac1106] but I lean away from it lately as it is too easy for me to make a styling mistake
# [jgmac1106] sometimes (and again probably my lack of knowledge) .copy article footer will style all articles and footers
# [jgmac1106] not just those nested inside "copy"
# petermolnar > isn't a right or wrong way - that's not how standards meant to be, is it? :)
# [jgmac1106] The standard is being met if you do 1 nav, 1 main, 1 footer or then articles inside of main that each have their own header and footer
# [jgmac1106] I just try to focus on my inner karthik and see how much I can get into a ul and not use divs at all
# [jgmac1106] how I handle it is I ask my students who use screen readers and also people in the IndieWeb community and ask what they like...Amanda and Marco always so helpful
# petermolnar > and not use divs at all - that sounds way too similar to the anti-tables movement, which then ended up using divs for tables. Everything has it's place :)
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# Zegnat There is no standard for how to markup your content because there is no standard for how to write content? Landmarks are assistive tools. If you want to know if you are using them right, see if you can navigate your site using them or not? I am not sure there is more of an answer than that *shrug*
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jeremycherfas zegnat++
# petermolnar > because there is no standard for how to write content - the German inside me wants a manual :D (a while ago, when the internet had a lot if "what's your internal citizenship?" tests I always ended up with German somehow)
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[Murray] Semantic HTML does have better fall-back support if CSS doesn't load as well. <ul> and <ol> are the obvious examples in terms of browser default rendering, but even stuff like <p> gain benefits. I guess HTML5 landmarks don't really have much of this (<header>, <footer> etc.) but they do make browsing a codebase _much_ easier IMO, so you get improved access for people using non-mouse/touch interfaces and better DX
# [Murray] Actually, on that last point, I think people really underestimate how useful landmarks are for all the more modern, edge-case internet browsing that's going on. Things like accessing sites via smart devices, audio assistants, or even stuff like Safari's reader mode/tools like Verblr. Landmarks help them accurately navigate your site too
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# petermolnar fascinating: I have a virtual windows XP for some old games, and a godforsaken inner voice told me to check my site with IE8. So I did. And my front page loads surprisingly well, once a html5 shiv was added - but nothing else does. And there's no difference. It literally uses the exact same template.
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@Downes ↩️ It might be because my content system (gRSShopper) sends out a webmention as soon as I publish the post to my website. (twitter.com/_/status/1274733344794849283)
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# [scottgruber] I was in a indieweb meetup and a participant asked for help debugging layout issues in a site using bootstrap. My thought to present about HTML energy and CSS would be a return to the future. Hand crafted websites. An issue I thought about that may make the topic out of scope for an indieweb camp is that it doesn’t include javascript or other programming helpful to integrate features like webmentions and micropub. On the other hand maybe
# [scottgruber] someone could present about it for total beginners or junior dev. Kind of a back to the basic thematic structure, if that makes sense. Thoughts?
# [scottgruber] i forgot to mention we all had some trouble figuring out how to solve the bootstrap layout challenge because it was pretty complex jangle for divs and classes.
# [scottgruber] [Murray] by landmarks do you html elements or aria role types?
# [scottgruber] I’ve led some workshops to go over foundational skills about html and css, web servers and http protocols, git and ftp, though a hands on exercise to build a github pages site. (adding a javascript snippet for web mentions is nice add too)
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@kitos_kirsanov ↩️ классная статья!
А для коментов кстати ещё вот такая штука есть - https://indieweb.org/Webmention.
+ https://webmention.io/ которая заставит это всё работать так как сейчас у тебя, но уже будет частью h̶i̶p̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ indie web'а. (twitter.com/_/status/1274790436935274496)
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[chrisaldrich] [scottgruber] There's only so much you can begin to cover in a session, so you'll obviously have to leave some parts out, but the idea you've framed could certainly make a good one. Having a starting place for people is a great idea. You could always finish up with a list of "things for the future" with some links to additional resources or jumping off points.
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# [chrisaldrich] [scottgruber] depending on who shows up for day two and their level of experience, something like what you're talking about might also make sense to do an actual "hands on session" to follow up the conversation/introduction on day one.
# petermolnar I may have found my topic for IWC: https://css-tricks.com/a-complete-guide-to-svg-fallbacks/#intro-svg-fallbacks because backwards compatibility is both a challenge and and interesting learning opportunity
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@ifedyukin ↩️ Ага, прямо через бриджи можно прикрутить лайки/комменты из инсты и твиттера к постам. Причем бриджи еще и кросспостить умеет с твоего сайтика в тви, например.
А фетчить вебменшены в рантайме можно прямо с https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=link, чтоб не ребилдить лишний раз ничего. (twitter.com/_/status/1274806293165981698)
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[KevinMarks] [scottgruber] css and design is an indieweb topic for sure
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# [Murray] [scottgruber] by landmarks I mean HTML elements that are "purely" for semantics, like <header>, <footer>, <nav> etc. I guess ARIA roles are an extension of that, in that they allow custom elements or non-semantic elements to be classed as landmarks, but in most cases a native HTML element should be sufficient 😊
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# [KevinMarks] Did you see new.css https://newcss.net/
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# [KevinMarks] Is there a generic name for these kinds of frameworks that primarily style html elements?
# [KevinMarks] POSH frameworks?
# [KevinMarks] Well, https://edwardtufte.github.io/tufte-css/ kinda qualifies and so does https://www.shoelace.style/docs/content.html