#dev 2021-01-10

2021-01-10 UTC
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aaronpk note to self: it helps to actually call your code when you're trying to test it
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[dmitshur] woohoo, thanks for reviewing the grant_type PR Aaron!
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Loqi giggles
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aaronpk thanks for the quick fix!
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[dmitshur] I can once again sign in to indieweb.org without any temporary workarounds, it feels good.
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aaronpk \o/
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lahacker i wonder what others' auth/token endpoint UXes look like; keep a running list of client_id/redirect_uri/scope/date and provide a Revoke button?
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[snarfed] silos have lots of examples
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lahacker right.. thanks
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lahacker i've got the simplest case of sign in/out working cross-browser using the `identity` WebExtension API if anyone's interested: https://github.com/angelogladding/liana/blob/main/background/auth.js
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lahacker wondering if i can't turn that file into a library
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aaronpk oh wow
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aaronpk lahacker++
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Loqi lahacker has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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aaronpk i need that library for ownyourgram
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lahacker k i'll take a whack at decoupling and packaging it and let you know
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[snarfed] ooooh me too if it works with IndieAuth
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lahacker yeah it's IndieAuth
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lahacker does anyone know of any indieweb projects with i18n?
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aaronpk Indienews?
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[tantek] worth reading: https://www.w3.org/2021/01/09-social-minutes.html
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[tantek] especially https://www.w3.org/2021/01/09-social-minutes.html#t06
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GWG Updating my old posts has made me realize that I need to update the code that displays the checkin with photo posts
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GWG It's not a good presentation
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GWG Wondering if I should also customize the archive view
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GWG Anyone have some unique checkin display examples?
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jamietanna[m] Anyone used Postman before? I'm building a thing for the Postman hack around IndieAuth (2020 updates) and Micropub and may be looking for some testing for folks who support a couple of specific extensions
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GWG I did once when I had to for something
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jamietanna Hmm, it may actually not work as well as I'd hoped, I didn't realise folks usually kept their q=config requring authentication
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GWG jamietanna: I was talking about that the other day. It isn't a rule
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jamietanna Looking at the first three folks I was gonna test with, they're all blocked - you, Aaron and Manton
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swentel is there anything in the spec about it?
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jamietanna https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/#discovery shows the example with a token, and says it must allow the same tokens, but doesn't say whether it _must_ be authenticated. I guess most folks do as it's simpler?
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swentel I guess https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/#authentication-0 enforces it
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jamietanna Ah yep :(
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jamietanna May have been something I'd gone non-standard on then, as I felt it didn't need to be required for a lot of the config
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jamietanna That's gonna make this much harder to test / implement :D
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jamietanna well, aside from the authentication issue, it seems to work pretty nicely, and generates me a handy Postman collection with all my post types and queries supported :D
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GWG swentel: But it doesn't distinguish as to whether that is a post or a get though.
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jamietanna I'll probably get a blog post up tomorrow about it, as I'm not sure I'll have a chance today - been good fun working on it
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GWG Might be worth a discussion
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swentel GWG, sure, but it's a request against the micropub endpoint, so seems legit
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GWG swentel: I meant, it isn't a bad thing to discuss and clarify whether or not it may be a good thing to revisit
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jamietanna[m] But it anyone has an unauthenticated config endpoint gimme a shout so I can test my tool!
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jamietanna[m] I think it'd be good to revisit, even if it's a "MAY not require authentication" to allow folks to relax it if they want
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GWG There's some data I don't care if people can query
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GWG Like a post list.
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jamietanna Yeah I think things like that and q=syndicate-to or what `q`s / `post-type`s do I support
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jamietanna IMO there's not much sensitive in q=config
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jamietanna but happy to let folks keep it secure if they want to
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GWG Tell me if this is crazy....a temperature graph of my posts...
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[Raphael_Luckom] it would be interesting to see a temp graph superimposed on a sentiment-analysis graph. Are they correlated?
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swentel hehe
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GWG [Raphael_Luckom]: I don't have mood as a post parameter like Livejournal did
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@15VirginiaLee PRE ORDER SALE 99c! #preorder #sale #kindle #nook #kobo #ibook #izzymatthews #Sale #improbableodds #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/1348359152284950532)
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paulrobertlloyd Been thinking about consuming/producing mf2 and JF2 in Indiekit, and which format to use when: https://getindiekit.com/indiekit/decisions/0003-store-post-data-as-jf2
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paulrobertlloyd Curious is anyone has felt similar pain juggling the 2 formats?
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[Raphael_Luckom] interesting, hadn't noticed jf2
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[Raphael_Luckom] I haven't gotten to the point of adding mf2 support to my site yet, but I assumed that I'd use that markup in my html. jf2 adds an interesting twist.
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[Raphael_Luckom] https://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#jf2feed
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[Raphael_Luckom] One thing that seems a little awkward about mf2-in-html is the "first microformat on a page wins" dynamic. That makes me think that maybe what I'd want is for each mf2-document to have its own unique URL, which doesn't seem to be how they're usually used. I've been thinking about making that the default when I get around to implementing it--each microformatted item would be published standalone on a url only intended for
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[Raphael_Luckom] machine-readability, in addition to being incorporated in whatever human-readable content I'm writing. In that type of system, there would be no tension between publishing both mf2 and jf2-versions of everything, just like you could offer both rss and atom feeds of blog posts.
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aaronpk FWIW jf2 isn't meant to be a publishing format, it's meant for use within protocols like microsub
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aaronpk i would not expect to find websites publishing jf2 feeds. i would barely expect them to publish microformats json feeds either, instead publishing HTML containing microformats markup
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[Raphael_Luckom] If that's the expectation, the inability to distinguish between multiple same-type microformats on a single html page seems like a pretty big usability challenge, unless there's a way around it I haven't seen yet.
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paulrobertlloyd I’m currently publishing a JF2 feed for my site for the reasons outlined here: https://getindiekit.com/indiekit/decisions/0002-share-publication-state-using-jf2
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paulrobertlloyd But that’s intended as a private feed, almost
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paulrobertlloyd Indiekit doesn’t publish JF2, but does use it internally for populating templates etc.
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aaronpk i'm not sure what you mean by "first microformat on the page wins"
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aaronpk for example take a look at this page which describes how to find the author of a post, where there is absolutely no assumption that there is only one microformat on the page https://indieweb.org/authorship-spec
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aaronpk also https://indieweb.org/representative_h-card
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[Raphael_Luckom] Those are interesting, and yes, they address part of what I was talking about. But when you're sending webmentions, I think you've still got the issue from this earlier comment: https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/archives/C1PA11USK/p1610226286085400
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[KevinMarks] This is where fragments in the url can help
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[Raphael_Luckom] I don't understand
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aaronpk that's what i was saying before
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aaronpk http://pin13.net/mf2/?id=20210110212340707
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aaronpk now if you send a webmention with a source URL https://example.com/#entry-2 the receiver knows to look for the object with that URL on the page
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[Raphael_Luckom] right. What I got from what you said before was that, since I don't control the webmention-receiving code, the only way that I can make sure the right thing is parsed is to make sure it's first on the page.
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aaronpk i was saying you can't guarantee that all webmention receivers will do that, but that's also true of any aspect of webmention really
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aaronpk i didn't mean to imply that you *should* make it the first one on the page, just that if a receiver doesn't support this behavior it will *probably* use the first one on the page
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[Raphael_Luckom] As a proxy for "what to expect," is there a standard that says that webmention receivers _should_ handle url fragments?
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aaronpk now that you mention it... i can't think of the wiki page for that
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aaronpk it's technically not part of the webmention spec so it wouldn't be in there
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aaronpk i guess there's some notes here https://indieweb.org/comments
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[Raphael_Luckom] I get that it's not reasonable for me to ask for every independent implementation to do what I think is reasonable. But I also don't want to make structural decisions based on an informal assumption.
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aaronpk but it says "parse the h-entry at the URL" which isn't very explicit
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aaronpk also that sentence was carried over from the original draft from 2014 and never revisited really https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=comments&oldid=2320
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aaronpk so i think that could use some work
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[Raphael_Luckom] I think that's the only issue I have. If url fragments are definitely included in "the URL", then I don't think there's anything left for me to argue about.
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[Raphael_Luckom] maybe that's already the natural way to read that, idk
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[snarfed] bridgy has a couple feature requests for this: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/681 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/445
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[snarfed] it’s currently supported for publish
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Loqi [OliverJAsh] #681 listen: support hash/fragment permalinks to entries inside feeds
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[KevinMarks] would this be worth a spec iteration, or some new tests in webmention.rocks?
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aaronpk a spec iteration would require there being a spec to iterate ;-)
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GWG aaronpk: We don't have a webmention spec?
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aaronpk we don't have a comments spec
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GWG aaronpk: Oh. Good point.
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aaronpk webmention doesn't talk much about microformats
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GWG We have a lot of parsing stuff that could probably stand to be formalized
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GWG Authorship, comments, etc.
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aaronpk authorship is already a spec
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/authorship-spec
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GWG It's not on the spec page though.
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aaronpk there's even a few test cases available! https://authorship.rocks/
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GWG I always look there first.
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GWG Should Authorship be on spec.indieweborg?
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aaronpk yea probably
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GWG And what would a comment spec cover?
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aaronpk how to send and receive comments using webmention and microformats
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aaronpk it could reference the authorship spec for that part too
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GWG It would be helpful to a lot of people.
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aaronpk but even before making it a spec, we at least need a wiki page that talks about it
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aaronpk there's barely notes on /comments about it, they could definitely use some improvement
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GWG Yes, reorganizing how to display sounds like a good first step. But you have that, and comment-presentation, which is another page.
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GWG I'm just trying to figure out a structure for a page to work on it?
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aaronpk it looks like /comment-presentation is a redirect to /comments ?
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aaronpk this is definitely a start, but it probably needs some updating
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/comments#How_to_display
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aaronpk i suppose what we actually need is a responses spec, since that talks specifically about comments, not about likes
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aaronpk the "how to receive likes" bit is on a different page https://indieweb.org/like#receive_and_markup_incoming_likes
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aaronpk but the actual instruction of going from the page source to microformats to something you can use in your website is pretty vague and assumes the reader already knows a lot about microformats
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GWG I thought there was another page about presentation...
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GWG So, would it be better if we use /responses ?
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aaronpk at the very least an immediate first step could be to add links on /responses to the section on the page that talks about how to receive each type
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GWG aaronpk: Like that?
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aaronpk yeah plus "how to receive a reply"
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aaronpk display is after you've already got one stored
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GWG I see how to post one.
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GWG Not how to receive.
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aaronpk it's this https://indieweb.org/comments#How_to_display