#dev 2021-01-22

2021-01-22 UTC
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dansup I should add pixelfed to that!
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Loqi yea
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@Booligoosh ↩️ No problem! For random ppl seeing this thread BTW, we're testing Jip's implementation of webmention support (like on http://ethan.link) to allow replies from Twitter to show up on his site. (twitter.com/_/status/1352569057887752193)
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@StuRobson ↩️ it’s all about webmentions now, innit‽ (twitter.com/_/status/1352568280813342724)
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@DavidDarnes ↩️ Maybe doing it Webmentions style will encourage more constructive discussions? If someone posts it to Twitter openly they'll need to be constructive, rather than possibly writing targeted abuse in a corner of the web (twitter.com/_/status/1352570940698337281)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ You got webmention spam? Do you think you could document that for us as so far we haven't seen many examples in the wild, and we're looking into spam protection this weekend. https://indieweb.org/spam#Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1352581329813196803)
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@voxpelli ↩️ The setup that I want to have for a “CMS” myself is: * Static site generator at the core * An API to add and edit stuff in the git repo of that site * Dynamic stuff added as JS widgets, like Disqus. I eg. created such a one for Webmentions for my setup: http://webmentions.herokuapp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/1352596971895345154)
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[Raphael_Luckom] is bridgy using twitter's account activity api ( https://developer.twitter.com/en/docs/twitter-api/premium/account-activity-api/overview ) and setting up webhooks?
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aaronpk Thinking about what this looks like on the IndieWeb spec side https://github.com/owncast/owncast/issues/458#issuecomment-745634829
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aaronpk pretty sure it's "add Microformats"
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Loqi [Gargron] What you need to become part of the fediverse: - `/.well-known/webfinger` that responds to queries and points to - `/actor`, a JSON response with properties such as `preferredUsername`, `inbox` and some others - `/inbox` which accepts POST reque...
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[colinwalker] Afternoon. Just started on my webmention endpoint. Got the basic plumbing in place and now looking at X-Ray to parse the mf2.
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[colinwalker] Or maybe php-mf2
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[snarfed] [Raphael_Luckom] no, bridgy uses the old twitter API. new premium APIs like that one cost >$10 per user per month, and bridgy has >3k twitter users, soooooo….no i’m not currently paying twitter $30k/month 😂
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[Raphael_Luckom] polling?
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[snarfed] (background: https://developer.twitter.com/en/pricing/aaa-all , https://snarfed.org/2020-06-27_bridgy-stats-update-5)
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[snarfed] yup polling sigh
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[Raphael_Luckom] makes sense, thanks!
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[Raphael_Luckom] wow does each user require separate polling call(s)?
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[snarfed] definitely. average 10-20 per user per poll. finding replies, links to your site, quote tweets, favorites (which aren’t in the API at all and have to be scraped, etc)
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[snarfed] backfeed is complicated 🙁
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[Raphael_Luckom] one reason that I think people should run their own infrastructure is that you don't really appreciate the absurdity of that $10/user figure for premium APIs until you realize that's like 3x the cost of a whole site
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[Raphael_Luckom] for your own data
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[snarfed] oh you can do it for just you for free
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[snarfed] but you have to go through the API approval process
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[snarfed] which is a non-starter for end users
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[Raphael_Luckom] yeah 😞
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[snarfed] (i’m also _against_ people running their own infrastructure, at least non-technical gen 4 people as in https://indieweb.org/generations …but that’s a different debate)
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[Raphael_Luckom] it is a different debate. I'd love to talk about it some time.
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[snarfed] :thumbsup:
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aaronpk ooh owncast is basically a javascript app, so the home page is a static file. that becomes trickier since you’d want the HTML to change based on the state of the stream
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aaronpk i was going to send a quick PR to add h-event to it but now i can’t really
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@sonniesedge I think that I just accidentally wrote most of a node-based endpoint discovery, parser, and sender for webmentions. I think a version already exists in npm, but would it be useful for other `#indieweb` folk to have this as a package? S'all async and promises. (twitter.com/_/status/1352660912012984321)
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@voxpelli ↩️ It has been on my list to do for the one in https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions, it’s becoming really outdated though so maybe I could make it use yours if you release it + send back any possible improvements when I get time :) (twitter.com/_/status/1352666335130624003)
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@qubyte ↩️ I use @rem's webmention library to do this. It's a little experimental because I'm not sure I'm using it quite how it's intended to be used, but it works well! See link. https://glitch.com/edit/#!/lean-send-webmentions?path=dispatch-mentions-for-post.js I reckon it's healthy to have options though. I'd love to see what you've got. (twitter.com/_/status/1352666153659883520)
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[tantek] inspired by [Raphael_Luckom] in #indieweb-chat, this popped in my head:
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[tantek] There are user (apps & services), developer (libraries & frameworks), and standards (protocols & formats) building blocks
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[Raphael_Luckom] those distinctions are also helpful in the "should people run their own infrastructure" conversation. They establish a kind of gradient so you can decide where you draw the line. As an example, you might say that gen2 shouldn't be expected to write wp plugins, but might be expected to know how to install them. Then if you take it to gen3, you might say that they aren't going to install those plugins but might need to understand certain
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[Raphael_Luckom] privacy settings in the plugins.
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[tantek] there's probably another category between user & developer of "CMS maintainer" that has the patience to deal with plugins & settings
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[tantek] definitely not users in general
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[Raphael_Luckom] like tbh I'm kinda less interested in the "should people run their own infrastructure" question generically, and more interested in the "what specific things is it risky for people with less understanding to do"
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[tantek] and you don't need to know how to code to maintain plugins & settings
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[tantek] [Raphael_Luckom] those quotes are a bit too binary which is why I broke it out into several categories
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[Raphael_Luckom] yeah
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[tantek] treating everyone as only "users" or "developers" is how you end up losing people who don't identify fully as either
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[Raphael_Luckom] right, it's about making a smooth gradient instead of sharp lines
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[tantek] the generations description is a bit dated now and unnecessarily ordered, which is why I'm shifting towards a set of categories instead
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[tantek] users, CMS folks, developers, standards folks
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[tantek] they're all pretty different with different priorities / strengths / time
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[tantek] maybe that's a bit of a meta discussion, but I feel it affects developers the most so I think it's fine here
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aaronpk can we add some sort of banner to the top of /generations ?
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[tantek] not until someone wants to do the work of writing up an alternative
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[Raphael_Luckom] one thing that I thought was interesting about the generations (but not directly about them) was the quote "Introducing Gen4 to the IndieWeb is not yet reasonable at this time."
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[tantek] it's always bad to mark something as "old" or whatever unless you can link to the actual new thing. then it just makes the whole site/community look/feel old
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[Raphael_Luckom] idk, not really dev
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[tantek] exception: the wikipedia warnings/banners that "this page needs to be updated" is quite decent
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aaronpk normally i would agree except that i feel like leaving it as is is actually doing more harm than good
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[tantek] I think it is borderline doing more good than harm
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[tantek] it is at a minimum fighting against the unnecessary artificial dichotomy most (dev) folks seem to have
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[tantek] which is a pretty big deal
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[tantek] yes the labels / ranking are dated / imprecise now and that can be fixed
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[tantek] but yeah, /generations is more #indieweb-meta
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[Raphael_Luckom] I'd suggest that maybe if we elaborate on what's meant by "running your own infrastructure" (maybe rephrased as "operational tasks") that could be a replacement for generations, since people could identify with the operational tasks they're comfortable undertaking
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aaronpk i like that, phrasing it in terms of what someone actually does rather than identifying as some sort of type of person
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[tantek] I think "running your own infrastructure" is a very "run away screaming" framing to most folks and I wouldn't put that anywhere except in the deepest of dev pages
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[tantek] it's also a common trope from drive-by critics - "indieweb? isn't that for people that run their own servers?"
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[tantek] so no, infrastructure--
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Loqi infrastructure has -1 karma over the last year
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[Raphael_Luckom] hence calling it "tasks" or "interactions"
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aaronpk we can put "run your own infrastructure" right above "design your own CPU"
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[tantek] anyway, that's definitely in the #indieweb-meta weeds lol
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[colinwalker] [chrisaldrich] Just wanted to say thanks for the suggestion to look at the old versions of the WordPress Webmention plugin. Definitely pointed me in the right direction.
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@hmans ↩️ I don't, and it's been a while. Was basing things off WebMention before ActivityPub became the hotness. Key moment was when a friend asked me how, in my distributed social utopia, I would protect her against harassers. (twitter.com/_/status/1352715321719795719)
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GWG [colinwalker]: Sorry, we made it more complicated over time
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[colinwalker] haha no worries. I think I’ve got there in the end ;0
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GWG [colinwalker]: We've been slowly working to merge in the mf2 code. It is separate currently
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[colinwalker] I was using it as a starting point for my own endpoint now that I’m using a custom CMS
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GWG [colinwalker]: I know, that's why I mentioned it omits mf2
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[colinwalker] @GWG Ah I see. Well, I’m using php-mf2 to convert to json and pulling the details from there.
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[colinwalker] Still, now that I’ve got an endpoint I’ve discovered that my likes are only sending as normal mentions
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GWG [colinwalker]: There's always aaronpk's xray. I have my own post php-mf2 processing code
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[colinwalker] Receiving seems to be okay so don’t need xray, just when sending my likes.
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