#dev 2021-12-30
2021-12-30 UTC
# 
[chrisaldrich] I know that not all fields for a post could be targeted currently with query parameters (tags and categories seem to be two that aren't supported), but it would be interesting if there were microformats-based query parameters I could add to my site's URL and, if I'm logged in, the site could convert them into a micropub based post.
# [chrisaldrich] Does that make sense?
# [chrisaldrich] They're queryable, but can you use them to make a post like: `http://example.com/wp-admin/post-new.php?kind=bookmark&kindurl=http://indieweb.com&tag=indieweb&cat=category1` as an example?
# [chrisaldrich] or add a query onto the end of a URL like that to indicate that you wanted to syndicate a post to twitter for example?
# [chrisaldrich] This would then allow one to build browser bookmarklets to make a wide variety of posts to one's site.
# [chrisaldrich] I'm trying to think of ways to help glue non-indieweb friendly sites like Newsblur that Jeremy mentioned above to post to one's micropub endpoint.
# [chrisaldrich] As I recall Inoreader allows sharing to a custom URL which one can do quite a lot with, but that method is only as rich as one's site supports query parameters. See for example https://boffosocko.com/2018/12/03/using-inoreader-as-an-indieweb-feed-reader/.
# [chrisaldrich] Mostly I'm thinking of ways to bridge older web technologies to newer IndieWeb ones until services that have RSS or older technology support newer IndieWeb building blocks.
# 
[tantek] [chrisaldrich] could also be a way of creating URLs for /webactions
# [chrisaldrich] ^^ both of those...
# [chrisaldrich] for example Quill doesn't currently do read-of posts (few clients do, maybe only IndiePass?), but if I could modify its bookmarklet URL to specify "read-of" instead of "bookmark-of" generically then I'm off to the races...
# [chrisaldrich] I'm primarily just spit balling here, but maybe something to think about....
# 
GWG I wonder if someone would update https://github.com/barnabywalters/web-action-hero-toolbelt
# [chrisaldrich] I remember Keith and Grant having things in this area, but that seems like before March 2020...
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# 
aaronpk OwnCast is making progress on ActivityPub integration https://github.com/owncast/owncast/issues/1594#issuecomment-1002846571
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# [tantek] aaronpk, does that make it IndieWeb relevant enough to be worth recreating? https://indieweb.org/Owncast
# 
Loqi OwnCast is a self-hosted livestreaming application that can be used to livestream from your own website https://indieweb.org/OwnCast
# [tantek] aaronpk, the IndieAuth feature request for OwnCast appears to have taken an odd turn: https://github.com/owncast/owncast/issues/464
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@t73fde ↩️ (Test für Webmention, da ich aktuell nicht mein Blog beschreiben kann) (twitter.com/_/status/1476538448706215939)
# @t73fde ↩️ (Klappt schon mal via Twitter nicht. Musst dich gedulden, bis ich an meinen Blog komme. https://webmention.rocks/ hast du schon probiert?) (twitter.com/_/status/1476540264122654722)
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@Tahina_Spector ↩️ The magical phrase is "Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere"
The general idea is to host/post on your own site and automatically distribute it to where the audiences are. It's not a simple switch, but if you can pull it off it's the best.
e.g. https://brid.gy/about#publish-types (twitter.com/_/status/1476588263074934792)
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# 
zerojames[d] edgeduchess[d] that is my feed reader right now ^
# zerojames[d] I have removed the sidebar for now in favour of a one column layout.
# zerojames[d] The reader is a bit thinner now too.
# edgeduchess[d] oh that's interesting
# zerojames[d] Those design details aside, I like having social interactions at the bottom.
# zerojames[d] Those send a direct Micropub request to my site.
# zerojames[d] But, if JS is disabled, I am redirected to my Micropub client to like / bookmark.
# zerojames[d] (Progressive enhancement and all :))
# edgeduchess[d] so before we talk more about this, i must ask one question: who are you building this for?
# zerojames[d] Me for now 🙂
# zerojames[d] But next year I’d love to make a hosted client.
# edgeduchess[d] like, what "niche" are you targeting?
# zerojames[d] Following the IndieWeb / blogs for now.
# zerojames[d] The inspiration is the typical RSS reader + a bit of Monocle + my ideas on how I want to show info.
# edgeduchess[d] so is it mostly for technical people that already own their indieweb blog but need a better interface to be able to follow what's going on in the space?
# zerojames[d] I would say that is a good summary.
# zerojames[d] One would need a Micropub server to make use of the client.
# zerojames[d] *the feed reader client, that is
# zerojames[d] *more specifically, the “social” features, as everything feed reading is part of Microsub
# edgeduchess[d] do these people already own a micropub server? would they be willing to set it up?
# zerojames[d] This is the “for me” part right now. I haven’t thought this far 😂
# zerojames[d] I am interested in how the reader and publishing mechanism could be combined.
# zerojames[d] One client > two clients.
# edgeduchess[d] yeah absolutely
# edgeduchess[d] i'm asking because who you eventually build something for really changes what you prioritize in building it
# zerojames[d] I plan to add a “post” section at the top of the reader, similar to Twitter.
# edgeduchess[d] even if you build it for yourself, it helps keeping in mind what your goal is
# zerojames[d] I don’t really use this often but may do so if / when I scrap some taxonomies.
# zerojames[d] Again, to simplify, as I don’t need specific markup to track information like watches.
# zerojames[d] (Shows I have watched)
# zerojames[d] Then there is the discovery part: how do you find blogs?
# zerojames[d] I hope to do something with IndieWeb Search here.
# zerojames[d] Cursory support for discovering blogs by topic has been implemented. Thus, it would be an interesting way to start exploring searching for people.
# zerojames[d] I need to refresh myself on the Microsub draft spec. I think there is a search endpoint that I would like to implement. Thus, you could search for content saved in your reader.
# zerojames[d] My dashboard is both a client and a server. Thus, technically, I could use any other client or any other server, but keeping them paired means I have one codebase and one less thing to authenticate to.
# zerojames[d] Sorry. This is turning out to be James’ feed reader implementation notes.
# edgeduchess[d] no that's good
# edgeduchess[d] i want to learn about those technologies cause i plan to integrate them with what i'm doing
# zerojames[d] This post is interesting re: features too: https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2021/02/revisiting-my-ideal-feed-reader/
# edgeduchess[d] i just go from a product-first approach cause anything I do isn't going to matter if people aren't using it
# edgeduchess[d] so I made the choice to focus on building something that works for people and slowly figure out the protocol stuff once I know the shape i want them to take
# zerojames[d] Importing is key too. How do people get data in? OPML import is my main thought on this. I’d love to see more servers / clients with OPML import features.
# zerojames[d] I wrote a script for this haha.
# zerojames[d] https://github.com/capjamesg/microsub-opml-utils
# edgeduchess[d] I have thoughts about importing
# edgeduchess[d] i need to find the software i was thinking of using, one sec
# zerojames[d] It should have been part of my reader but I wanted to experiment with Ruby so it became a different script 😂
# edgeduchess[d] https://github.com/rehypejs/rehype
# zerojames[d] I love what you said re: product-first. I have been thinking more about my own needs thus far (eat what you cook). But good products are designed to appeal to more than just one person.
# edgeduchess[d] I was going to explore using rehype and the ecosystem around it to write a bunch of converters
# edgeduchess[d] zerojames[d]: https://essential-randomness.tumblr.com/post/671691948059426816/why-a-fandom-platform-of-our-own-is-not-about this might be useful
# 
petermolnar for opml import, there's also https://indieweb.org/Ekster
# edgeduchess[d] i got baited into writing about product stuff the other day
# zerojames[d] Ekster++
# zerojames[d] Oh. Another quick thing…
# edgeduchess[d] I think one can think about their own needs and also build a broader product
# zerojames[d] My feed reader has a special reserved “all” channel.
# zerojames[d] Or, rather, the server does.
# zerojames[d] This is a firehouse of everything. I rarely look at channels individually.
# zerojames[d] I’d love to see Microsub adopt this as part of the eventual standard because I think people are used to having one go-to feed.
# zerojames[d] I found even the idea of checking separate feeds in my reader to be tiring and anxiety-inducing, seeing as I created 10 or so channels.
# zerojames[d] Well said [snarfed]!
# zerojames[d] edgeduchess[d] my next goal with my reader is to add search and integrate it closer with my Micropub setup. Then clean it up a bit.
# edgeduchess[d] oh yeah snarfed i don't mean to imply everyone must build for others
# edgeduchess[d] but if one wants to actively engender a more broadly adopted indieweb *someone* has to
# edgeduchess[d] it's not something that can be just piled on someone unwillingly, but if someone does want to do it, there's ways to do so effectively that they're better off learning
# edgeduchess[d] zerojames[d] is there any way i can try this, maybe later in the month?
# edgeduchess[d] I think seeing it in use would give me a better idea of where you're at
# [snarfed] https://micro.blog/ and its apps are great examples of deeply product-first IndieWeb products. https://withknown.com/ is/was another, especially the late hosted version
# edgeduchess[d] i really need to look more deeply into micro.blog
# edgeduchess[d] but also that's kinda the thing: they have a defined niche, and there's space for more of them
# edgeduchess[d] like the fact that micro.blog exists is a sign that product can be made in that space, but in a healthy environment multiple products exist without swallowing each other
# edgeduchess[d] so for example my goal is to have similar products for the needs of fandom/artists
# [snarfed] you're also right that discovery is a weak spot for the IndieWeb now. everything that works on the "normal" web (eg search engines, recommendation engines) applies, which helps, but discovery is hard to do decentralized, and we don't have many (any?) centralized IndieWeb services that try to crawl and encompass _all_ IndieWeb sites
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# edgeduchess[d] my take on that is that the easiest way would be webrings-like services
# edgeduchess[d] but it's not *super* informed, just a hunch based on stuff i;ve seen around
# edgeduchess[d] it;s not, but you can do discovery of webrings and that is a way to help
# edgeduchess[d] maybe a bit easier than discovery of individual blogs
# edgeduchess[d] helps feel like there's a community there
# [snarfed] we do have a few smaller indices that would be good places to to start though! eg https://indieweb-search.jamesg.blog/ , https://indiemap.org/ , https://xn--sr8hvo.ws/ , https://indiechat.search.cweiske.de/
# edgeduchess[d] interesting
# edgeduchess[d] but the way i see it, I would let people easily create and share their own webrings
# edgeduchess[d] so anyone could do their own map
# edgeduchess[d] and have a process to apply to it
# petermolnar edgeduchess[d]: https://mxb.dev/blog/webring-kit/
# edgeduchess[d] oh that's cool! but not accessible to most people at tumblr-level
# edgeduchess[d] but these are all signals that this stuff can work
# edgeduchess[d] it just needs to be packaged right
# edgeduchess[d] like the overall experience needs to be cohesive and approachable
# edgeduchess[d] the fact that the individual pieces exist points to there being a need there
# edgeduchess[d] that people are trying to meet one way or the other
# petermolnar to be honest, a webring is data and ~20 lines of PHP
# petermolnar or 10
# petermolnar not even that
# edgeduchess[d] yeah but it's not the amount of lines
# petermolnar example: https://yesterwebring.neocities.org/script.js this is a whole widget that can be added as is to a site
# edgeduchess[d] i had the desire to make a "bobaboard users across the web" webring for a while, but i haven't yet
# petermolnar swap out the var on the top to point at any similar json
# edgeduchess[d] anyway for stuff to gain traction and adoption there needs to be a specific effort made
# petermolnar What specific effort? Can you lead that effort?
# edgeduchess[d] "we published a blog post and yet no one did it" is not a valid signal that anything could work
# edgeduchess[d] oh, i am
# edgeduchess[d] i just started from communities because i think that's more likely to move the needle in the right direction
# edgeduchess[d] specifically they get around a bunch of problems that a blog-based ecosystem would incur in
# edgeduchess[d] but I do plan to at least start exploring the blog space more in 2022
# edgeduchess[d] i need to get a volunteers wrangler though, cause as the whole effort grows i've been unable to keep up with the contributions on my own
# edgeduchess[d] oh yeah absolutely
# edgeduchess[d] i mean all this stuff is great
# edgeduchess[d] i'm just focused on different adopters
# edgeduchess[d] but there's a lot of amazing building blocks here that work well for this public
# edgeduchess[d] if i think about tumblr, people's #1 complaint is that search sucks
# edgeduchess[d] so i don't think it's even about necessarily having "good search"
# edgeduchess[d] initial discovery is the sticking point IMO
# edgeduchess[d] and decentralized can mean a bunch of stuff, like is a webring decentralized?
# edgeduchess[d] yeah tbh i think centralized would be fine
# edgeduchess[d] especially if it produces a bunch of reusable pieces
# petermolnar what was technorati?
# Loqi Technorati was a real-time blog search engine that provided date-ordered results for text phrases or links, typically within seconds of when people published on their blogs https://indieweb.org/Technorati
# edgeduchess[d] i think blog ownership being decentralized is more important than search being so
# edgeduchess[d] also if you get a good decentralized blog environment going, multiple differently-focused search projects will naturally emerge
# edgeduchess[d] i think one *really* needs to "MVP" discovery
# edgeduchess[d] if what they care about is blogs, that should be the focus
# edgeduchess[d] but you *do* need to think about discovery at least a bit
# edgeduchess[d] i'm personally using boba for discovery
# edgeduchess[d] bobaboard
# edgeduchess[d] like there's a *huge* effort i put in embedding
# edgeduchess[d] explicitly because then you can do your own blog and put it in a pre-existing community and get discovery that way
# edgeduchess[d] so you can start with building communities and use communities to drive people to get to follow each other's independent spaces
# edgeduchess[d] I'm desperately trying to hold off on going towards the "own your blog" part cause it's a bit of a distraction, but I believe in it and i'm fairly intentioned in dedicating scraps of time to it in 2022
# edgeduchess[d] if I play my cards right I can build stuff in parallel
# petermolnar edgeduchess[d]: if I'm reading https://www.bobaboard.com/faqs#open-source correctly, this is a hosted service, currently without the option of self-hosting it right?
# edgeduchess[d] yes
# edgeduchess[d] mostly cause it's still so unstable
# edgeduchess[d] i'm going to open source the frontend and the server as soon as i'm done with the "stabilization rewrite" i've been doing
# edgeduchess[d] ALMOST done
# petermolnar so bobaboard, from my perspective, is a silo
# petermolnar and using silos for discovery & boots is fine
# edgeduchess[d] but it doesn't make sense adding all the complexity of self-hosting if no one was ever going to use it
# petermolnar *boost
# edgeduchess[d] especially in a heavily exploratory phase
# edgeduchess[d] but everything is designed with potential self hosting in mind
# edgeduchess[d] but also it's a *platform* you can self-host
# edgeduchess[d] so you can self host your own community if you want, but generally it's meant to have a more pyramidal structure where multiple communities exist in the same space
# edgeduchess[d] so like discord, where you can have multiple "discord platforms", each with their own servers
# edgeduchess[d] and how to get them to communicate with each other is part of the exploration
# edgeduchess[d] but again, none of that makes any sense unless i get the service to be something people find actual value in it
# edgeduchess[d] but yeah it *is* a silo, even if it plans not to be as much, and it's also a silo i'm building as a stepping stone towards allowing people not to be in silos as much
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# edgeduchess[d] *bows*
# petermolnar edgeduchess[d]: I have one technical constructive criticism towards your project (which project, by the way looks like a lot of hard work): if possible, please move to server side rendering. Most of the linked boba things are js;dr for people who browse with JS off by default.
# petermolnar what is js;dr
# Loqi js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indieweb.org/js;dr
# edgeduchess[d] absolutely, peter
# edgeduchess[d] biggest hurdle to that: the text editor doesn't support server-side rendering
# edgeduchess[d] I have done some work towards it, but getting a good text editor in 2022 is *way* more work than it should be
# edgeduchess[d] there's some projects i'm looking at, but they're still in infancy
# petermolnar fallback to a mere <textarea>
# edgeduchess[d] biggest problem: mobile support is paramount
# edgeduchess[d] i mean rendering is the problem more than writing
# edgeduchess[d] but also, my public doesn't usually go around with JS off
# edgeduchess[d] so it's not worth investing in letting them have more than a basic modicum of functionality wihtout it
# edgeduchess[d] SSR is good because it helps performance, and because people can still read
# edgeduchess[d] "to write here you have to have JS enabled" is totally a thing i am willing to keep as is
# petermolnar "i mean rendering is the problem more than writing" - hm? There is thing thing called HTML.
# edgeduchess[d] yes, but you need to go from structured data to html
# edgeduchess[d] and the editor i use unfortunately uses functions that are not available on the server for it
# edgeduchess[d] if you want to make a platform that people use these days both markdown and html are a no go
# petermolnar for an editor, it's fair to require it, but for the logged out frontend, it's good to do progressive enhancements
# petermolnar what is progressive enhancement?
# Loqi progressive enhancement is the web development practice of building web pages, sites, apps so they are at least readable, and preferably allow for most if not all interactions, from any kind of browser, and optionally take advantage of additional capabilities (like various CSS & JS features) when available https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement
# edgeduchess[d] oh i agree, i would love to spend time on that, and I do in my spare time
# edgeduchess[d] it's just there's a lot of work and you gotta prioritize what people like you actually care about
# edgeduchess[d] at this stage, there's other priorities
# edgeduchess[d] and i hope some of the better new editors effort do pan out
# edgeduchess[d] so i can just move to those
# edgeduchess[d] I will die on the hill that one of the best thing to spend effort on to help indie projects would be a good, **modern** text editor that support mobile and SSR
# edgeduchess[d] i think slate does not support mobile: https://github.com/ianstormtaylor/slate
# edgeduchess[d] anyway it's in beta, and i won't touch it until it's stable
# edgeduchess[d] facebook is coming up with a new editor to replace draft.js that also didn't support mobile
# edgeduchess[d] i'm using quilljs, which is an ok choice, but the project went dead like 3 months after i started using it
# petermolnar not all things come out of beta, ever
# petermolnar for how long google search was beta?
# petermolnar how much real need is there for feature-rich mobile text editors?
# edgeduchess[d] that is also true, but let's say i'm going to keep looking at it until i can justify the effort to switch
# edgeduchess[d] feature-rich mobile text editor has been the biggest amount of work i had to do for bobaboard
# edgeduchess[d] any project that wants to help people make content needs a good text editor
# edgeduchess[d] the fact that people need to reimplement basic functionality over and over again rather than having modern interface they can tweak is a big barrier to the creation of new projects
# edgeduchess[d] but yeah tantek that's true, but also the experience people do want requires at least some JS
# edgeduchess[d] writing small, performant JS is hard
# edgeduchess[d] and it really depends on your public
# edgeduchess[d] TBH my public is willing to put with a lot there
# edgeduchess[d] so i can justify not making it a priority short term, though it needs to be one long term cause I have standards 🤣
# edgeduchess[d] anyway, quill is also such a huge library, at least last time i analyzed my bundle size
# edgeduchess[d] like i get all your points, and they are a pain to solve for
# edgeduchess[d] which is part of why I maintain the thesis that that'd be an impactful project
# edgeduchess[d] i hate how slow things are to load
# edgeduchess[d] i'm like "i'm a professional! this is unacceptable!"
# edgeduchess[d] but then again it depends on the public
# edgeduchess[d] it is horrible, which is part of why everyone makes app
# edgeduchess[d] IDK, i feel like they're generally smoother
# edgeduchess[d] as an experience
# edgeduchess[d] possibly cause they tap into the hardware better
# edgeduchess[d] i mean you can do that with the web too but yeah
# edgeduchess[d] i'd actually be interested in asking people about their experience with text editing on apps vs websites
# edgeduchess[d] could be a good avenue of research
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# petermolnar the state of textediting on *touchscreen* is horrible
# petermolnar it's not mobile
# petermolnar and I don't see that getting better without auto voice trans-script inputs
# edgeduchess[d] yeah i dont like textediting on touchscreen
# edgeduchess[d] but, sigh, that's the world we live in
# edgeduchess[d] kicking and screaming about it won't help change it 🤣
# edgeduchess[d] you gotta build around what you have
# edgeduchess[d] (i'll still complain though)
# petermolnar hence my question above: is there really a big need for touchscreen text editors?
# edgeduchess[d] i mean if you want to attract any type of 30yo and below public then yes
# edgeduchess[d] i'm going to move away from ghost as a blogging platform and the fact that they don't support mobile text editing is one of the main drives
# edgeduchess[d] who doesn't support mobile text editing in 2022
# edgeduchess[d] oh i love explorations of UIs
# edgeduchess[d] i had made this post: https://bobaboard.tumblr.com/post/670144951687987200/ooh-i-like-cyle-now-i-want-to-hit-them-up-here-to
# edgeduchess[d] i didn't get a lot of replies (probably now i'd get more since i'm more established), but that is a good one
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# Loqi create in the context of the indieweb refers to the act of and UI for creating a new post, in its simplest form, a new note, or more broadly creating anything on or for your personal site! https://indieweb.org/create
# edgeduchess[d] thank you
# edgeduchess[d] i've been exploring this a lot, asking a bunch of questions both on tumblr and twitter
# [tantek] create << Brainstorming: see both the questions (methodology, ways of thinking) and some of the strong desires in a post creation/editing UI here: 2021-12-09: https://bobaboard.tumblr.com/post/670144951687987200/ooh-i-like-cyle-now-i-want-to-hit-them-up-here-to
# Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorming: see both the questions (methodology, ways of thinking) and some of the strong desires in a post creation/editing UI here: 2021-12-09: https://bobaboard.tumblr.com/post/670144951687987200/ooh-i-like-cyle-now-i-want-to-hit-them-up-here-to" to the "See Also" section of /create https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78818&oldid=77545
# edgeduchess[d] I agree, but also am not sure their public at large agrees
# edgeduchess[d] but i do agree
# petermolnar "stop making every single a link into a scrollable stream" - hey, if the public expects everything to be a stream...
# petermolnar the brainwashing goes deep