#dev 2022-04-27

2022-04-27 UTC
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Leonardo1 Olá
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[KevinMarks] urgh. github and AWS copy pasting 😞
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[KevinMarks] now it wants a Role and OIDC setup. I always forget how endlessly fiddly anything involving AWS is
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AramZ-S[m] Yeah, you'll prob have to provision specific roles and give them secret keys to link to github
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[KevinMarks] I did user with secret keys based on one thingI found, but it wants roles and OIDc now, and I think that yak can wait until tomorrow
[timothy_chambe], doosboox, gxt, [fluffy], angelo, BillBennett, cybi, tetov-irc, BillBennett1, ben_thatmust and jamietanna joined the channel
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jamietanna OIDC setup for GitHub is pretty convenient, no longer need long-lived user/role tokens!
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[KevinMarks] I'm sure. it's just every time I open the IAM panel in AWS my heart sinks
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jamietanna Need a hand? I've done a few bits with it recently
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/1519313637193789444?s=20&t=_0LAHhOH3PZM4J99rh1RMg
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@kevinmarks The AWS IAM feeling when you try and set something new up https://twitter.com/DannyDutch/status/1518314235109036040/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/1519313637193789444)
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[KevinMarks] No, I'll work it out, I'm just moaning.
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jacky for those who are federating their site, have y'all noticed an uptick in people following you?
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[fluffy] I've gotten a crapton of new followers on both of my mastodon accounts
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[fluffy] I don't track stats on feed subscribers though
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[fluffy] Hard to do well and the amount of benefit even from perfect data is low
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jacky same
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jacky I've also been bumping micro.blog as often as I can, esp to people who want to use their existing site
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[manton] Thank you!
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[manton] We are definitely seeing new folks join Micro.blog this week. Not as many as on Mastodon, but that’s fine. It’s kind of a win either way because Micro.blog can ActivityPub-ify your blog.
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[tantek] I've a xoxo.social masto test account and have noticed a bunch of recent account follows there
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[tantek] hmm maybe I got the domain wrong
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[tantek] yep: https://xoxo.zone/@T
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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eb indieweb.social is not a very fun domain. indie.social would be awesome
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eb What's done is done though
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[schmarty] eb: indie.social is available. go nuts. 😂
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eb I just wish micro.blog was open source, I'm trying to avoid dependance on proprietary software, mostly why i am here :)
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eb [schmarty]: haha I'm in no position both financially and technically to selfhost a mastodon instance (to be clear i'm not poor or anything, just mastodon is very hefty software and I can't fathom the reponsibility of sustaining many people)
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[schmarty] micro.blog is built on open source software (hugo) and open standards (microformats, micropub, metaweblog, ...) i think of it as a paid hosting service that can save the time and effort of gluing those bits together.
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eb I am interested in coopratives though, so if some people wanted to start self hosting indieweb relevent things together I would be interested
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eb Are coopratives inheritly not indie?
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eb I'm a big fan
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[schmarty] (i like to roll my own stuff so i have glued a very similar collection of bits together)
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[schmarty] coop hosting is quite interesting but i can't think of any specific coop efforts that have taken off here in the IndieWeb chat, specifically.
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[schmarty] i guess the indieweb.org site itself and its supporting services probably count, but aren't "for" hosting people's individual sites.
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eb I'm wondering if the idea of owning fragements is discouraged by this community. My opinion will not be swayed, I like coops, but I'm wondering if it is a violation of indieweb ideas because it's not full ownership like selfhosting
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[schmarty] selfhosting is just one way to get things done. it's not a primary principle of IndieWeb.
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[schmarty] several indieweb building blocks have free services that folks can use, provided on a volunteer basis by folks in the community. snarfed's constellation of brid.gy services, for example. webmention.io. indieauth.com, ...
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eb Why do I randomly get and lose voice?
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jacky eb: might be if you ident with nickserv?
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eb yeah this is a nick but it's under ownership of my account
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eb It's listed on https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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eb I wonder if it's because there are two entries with the same domain, this account being one of them
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[chrisaldrich] For those who enjoy bridging all the things I've just noticed that Darius has an RSS to ActivityPub tool: https://github.com/dariusk/rss-to-activitypub/releases/tag/v2.0.0
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@hex ↩️ I don't know that it did… blogs may have an interesting future, have you heard of Webmentions by the W3C? I saw them in the wild for the first time recently. And yes, I was briefly the editor of the wikis category, until one day being suddenly banned and they refused to say why! (twitter.com/_/status/1519387245270159360)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ This is a good place to start: https://indieweb.org/Webmention There are lots of implementations in many languages you can use as examples or borrow from. Ask in http://chat.indieweb.org/dev/ for pointers/advice/help to cut through documentation and jargon. (twitter.com/_/status/1519397310932955137)
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[manton] @eb I'm not that familiar with co-ops but I can't think of why they couldn't be IndieWeb-friendly. I feel like that's a business model / ownership question that's separate from the APIs and formats that a service supports.
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[snarfed] manton++
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Loqi manton has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (22 in all channels)
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aaronpk What is business models?
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Loqi business models are ways to offer indieweb products and or services that users pay for both for their own benefit, and in support an open indie web https://indieweb.org/business-models
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[fluffy] I know the Resonate music streaming coop seems amenable to indieweb. I've had a brief conversation with some of them about that.
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[fluffy] Right now their focus is on making a single really good artist-owned platform but there's definitely interest in reducing the single point of failure.
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] Twitter used to make Quote Tweets require an explicit action. Then they expanded quote tweets to automatically "happen" just by linking to a tweet.
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[tantek] the other "feature" of Quote Tweets is the explicit listing of them as a different kind of response on a tweet that you can view by clicking a button under the tweet (just like you can view the likes or replies or retweets to a tweet)
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[fluffy] For whatever reason mastodon doesn't support card display for mastodon posts even though mastodon posts provide cards and mastodon has one of the best card display implementations I've ever seen.
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[fluffy] I am pretty sure this was a conscious decision by Eugen whose deep-seated belief is that quote tweets are a source of toxicity that outweighs their utility.
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[fluffy] He's stated that he only sees them used to engage in bad-faith drive-by discourse and prefers other models of post sharing.
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[fluffy] The “mastodon way” is to boost the original post and then reply to it with your own commentary, with the @ moved to the end.
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[fluffy] Which is awful for UX, incidentally.
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[fluffy] It makes the context very easy to lose.
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[fluffy] I agree with his observation about quote tweets being a driver of toxicity but not his conclusion.
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[aciccarello] “I think the way quotes are used on Twitter is bad for the mental health of everyone involved,” said Rochko. “It motivates you not to have a conversation _with_ somebody but _at_ somebody. It also makes you push problematic content further. When you comment on how bad it is, you spread it.”
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[aciccarello] https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/a22777589/what-is-mastodon-twitter-platform/
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[fluffy] I definitely prefer the reply-context notion in indieweb (and blogs in general) where you're quoting a piece of content and then adding your own reply, and it's more like a public email thread.
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[fluffy] Which is also how Tumblr replies originally worked but they're so far removed from that at this point that the underlying functionality is pretty much vestigial.
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lkhrs[m] have there been any forks that added in protocol-modifying features like quotes that also work with the rest of the federation? I haven't seen any
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[fluffy] I would think it wouldn't require any protocol mods, just some tweaks to the web client to show unfurls for mastodon posts.
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[fluffy] Which means it probably just means commenting out a check
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[tantek] tbh IMO it's purely about presentation at this point. 1. "unfurl" linked toots, 2. show a list of toots that link to your toot
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lkhrs[m] ah good point
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stevestreza Twitter's implementation works by finding the first URL to a tweet in a post and showing it as an embedded post, there's no protocol mangling that would need to happen for clients to do that for Mastodon
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[fluffy] 2 isn't readily supported by the protocol right now either. It would be easy to add via webmention but Eugen is anti-those too.
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[tantek] quote tweets I believe were added to reduce the quote screenshot tweet phenom
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[fluffy] He sees webmention as a privacy issue.
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[fluffy] Never mind that brid.gy basically adds them back in anyway
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[fluffy] (In a way which feels enormously hacky and bad when mastodon could just support them natively)
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lkhrs[m] he's got a lot of weird issues with everything, and I don't quite get his reasons for them so I've been wondering if there's something more technical behind some of them and they're just disguised as design decisions
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lkhrs[m] cross-instance text search for example
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[fluffy] He sees cross instance search as a privacy issue too
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lkhrs[m] can't do it because Eugen said it would be more open for abuse, but we have multiple privacy levels for toots and you can still see hashtags across the federation, so it makes zero sense to me
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[fluffy] And search in general. Mastodon purposefully makes text NOT searchable via robots exclusions and so on.
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[fluffy] The way privacy is implemented is pure garbage too
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[tantek] That seems like a per-site trivial code change
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[fluffy] It's a hack on top of the activitypub push nature.
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[tantek] "just" unpublish robots.txt / meta robots
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[fluffy] There's no real privacy in mastodon private posts.
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[tantek] or dms
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lkhrs[m] the search thing sounds enormously hard to add so that's the basis for my theory
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[fluffy] One reason mastodon folks get angry at Pleroma is that Pleroma allows boosting of unboostable toots
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[fluffy] Because Pleroma is just pure activitypub without any of mastodon’s hacked-on extensions
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lkhrs[m] the alternative is unaccessible screenshots, people are going to share the toot if they really want to anyway so might as well make it easy and accessible
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[fluffy] The way mastodon does CWs is also pretty awful from a protocol standpoint
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lkhrs[m] I will say I have enjoyed my time on my particular mastodon instance, been having a lot more interactions and conversations on mastodon than I've had on Twitter in the last 7 years. hope the activity keeps up
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[fluffy] Since it’s relevant: https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/2316-Distributed-toxicity-and-the-IndieWeb
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[fluffy] Yeah Mastodon is great if you can find a community that works well for you
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[fluffy] Mastodon doesn’t replace Twitter, it just gives a more focused Twitter-like experience
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[fluffy] Twitter was a lot more fun when it was small and focused, before it becamse the Everyone Platform.
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[fluffy] and Mastodon’s fine for that.
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lkhrs[m] yeah, my favorite time on twitter was 2010-2014
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[fluffy] somehow I guess I’ve never posted a “the problem with Twitter isn’t that it’s centralized, but that it’s Twitter” rant on my blog.
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[fluffy] but the thing I just linked to covers much of the same ground.
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[tantek] my favorite time on Twitter was 2006-2007 😔
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[fluffy] I’ve had several rants about the protocol and UI/UX issues with Fediverse (meaning mostly Mastodon but also Pleroma) on my blog, including https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/12455-Indieweb-vs-Fediverse and also this factually-problematic one that I should rewrite someday: https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/2535-ActivityPub-hot-take
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[tantek] Have we at least cited these on the wiki on the respective pages?
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[fluffy] I’m never sure where to put these things.
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[fluffy] I guess on /mastodon and /activitypub
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[fluffy] oh heh the hot take is already linked on /activitypub
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[KevinMarks] I'd extend that to maybe 2009, though the rot had started by then, they hadn't inverted @'s yet
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[fluffy] I felt like the addition of @ was the only thing that made twitter actually usable
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[fluffy] there were a few good years between @-replies showing up and @-replies turning into a toxicity churn
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[fluffy] oh sorry you said ‘inverted’ not ‘invented’
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[fluffy] What do you mean by that?
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[tantek] sometime in 2008 the UX of Twitter had sufficiently impacted my judgment that I was no longer happy with what I was tweeting. 😞
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[KevinMarks] Yes, made them into notifications, then put them under the post. Originally you only even saw them if you followed both people
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[tantek] 2009 is the year Twitter went full whale unreliability, which, in hindsight was quite fortunate, as it was what inspired me to sit down for consecutive weekends and redesign and write sufficient code to launch "tweeting from my site" on 2010-01-01 and then push hard to explore and document how to POSSE to Twitter with tons of details (as you can see in the /Twitter page)
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[KevinMarks] That was the thing I was praising in j.mp/twittertheory
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[tantek] and once I'd crossed that chasm (into owning my notes + POSSE for distribution), I realized there was no reason to ever go back
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[fluffy] oh wow Dave Doolin posted a comment on that, I used to know him in person, small world
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@TerribleMia ↩️ I think RSS could be part of it. I keep circling back to: a browser could helps provide interface around RSS, webmentions, whatever - and even help you start your own simple site from a template? (twitter.com/_/status/1519447861292806144)
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lkhrs[m] for me one of the best and worst things twitter added was grouping threaded tweets, it was great because it cut down on the torrent of tweets in my timeline, but since myself and a lot of other people I followed used third-party clients we couldn't see the grouping (still can't afaik). And then long tweet threads instead of a blog post or twitlonger became a super annoying thing
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[tantek] RSS could be a part of "it" (for some value of "it"), if it wasn't a deadend unupdateable/unfixable spec. It's at best a fallback for a low-res version of getting posts
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barnaby RSS/ATOM is a good low-effort starting point in that most blogging platforms and readers already support it, so it’s an easy sell
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[KevinMarks] And it's easy to upgrade to h-feed
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[fluffy] yeah, and they coexist nicely
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[fluffy] I do generally prefer the plumbing of atom over h-feed but both are fine.
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[fluffy] and h-feed is way more extensible!
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[fluffy] well. They’re equally extensible, but h-feed is easier to actually do it with 🙂
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