#dev 2022-05-17

2022-05-17 UTC
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sknebel [jamesg483]: recognizing who is "the same person" for polls - h-card data if they are honest, if people are being tricksy it only helps that you can look at the posts and can e.g. remove domains
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! I thought about this: is it possible to use the network architecture with peer-to-peer through WebRTC - my question would be if it would be possible to use WebRTC with Webmention... I thought about this... because there is a project that uses cdn through p2p(peer-to-peer) - part of a server's content could be distributed to nearby clients - these same clients could share content of interest among themselves -
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! I thought about this: is it possible to use the network architecture with peer-to-peer through WebRTC - my question would be if it would be possible to use WebRTC with Webmention... I thought about this... because there is a project that uses cdn through p2p(peer-to-peer) - part of a server's content could be distributed to nearby clients - these same clients could share content of interest among themselves -
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! I thought about this: is it possible to use the network architecture with peer-to-peer through WebRTC - my question would be if it would be possible to use WebRTC with Webmention... I thought about this... because there is a project that uses cdn through p2p(peer-to-peer) - part of a server's content could be distributed to nearby clients - these same clients could share content of interest among themselves -
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! Hi all! Have you guys ever thought about using p2p network architecture for webmentions?
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> 1. I thought about this: is it possible to use the network architecture with peer-to-peer through WebRTC - my question would be if it would be possible to use WebRTC with Webmention... I thought about this... because there is a project that uses cdn through p2p(peer-to-peer) - part of a server's content could be distributed to nearby clients - these same clients could share content of interest among themselves - so we
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! Hi all! Have you guys ever thought about using p2p network architecture for webmentions? ```
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> 1. I thought about this: is it possible to use the network architecture with peer-to-peer through WebRTC - my question would be if it would be possible to use WebRTC with Webmention...
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> 2. I thought about this... because there is a project that uses cdn through p2p(peer-to-peer) - part of a server's content could be distributed to nearby clients - these same clients could share content of interest among themselves - so we could also use the idea of webmentions under the hood.
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> 3. References: [peerjs](https://peerjs.com/) , [hls-js-demo](https://hls-js.netlify.app/demo/) , [hls-js](https://github.com/video-dev/hls.js) , [socketio-p2p](https://github.com/socketio/socket.io-p2p) ```
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[jamesg483] petermolnar Discord must resent messages when they are edited 😂
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[jamesg483] *resend
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petermolnar it does, yes
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petermolnar webmentions is p2p
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petermolnar one website is pinging another
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petermolnar you musn't bring a tech layer into it when it's not needed at all
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petermolnar nkot56297 what do you think p2p is?
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GWG A simple POST request is very easy for people to implement. WebRTC is not
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! here.... an idea!
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Idea
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> ```html
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <!---
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> htmx gives you access to AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML, using attributes, so you can build modern user interfaces with the simplicity and power of hypertext
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> https://htmx.org/attributes/hx-swap/
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> --->
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <script src="https://unpkg.com/peerjs@1.3.2/dist/peerjs.min.js"></script>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div hx-target="this" hx-swap="outerHTML" web_mention="replied"><!--- web_mention: replied, liked, reposted, reacted, bookmarked, mentioned, RSVPed, followed, Responses, mention, Reactions --->
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>First Name</label>: Joe</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>Last Name</label>: Blow</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>Email</label>: joe@blow.com</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <button hx-get="/contact/1/edit" class="btn btn-primary">
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Click To Edit
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> </button>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> </div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <script>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // https://peerjs.com/
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // PeerJS simplifies WebRTC peer-to-peer data, video, and audio calls.
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // https://github.com/PlaidWeb/webmention.js/
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> var conn = peer.connect('another-peers-id');
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // on open will be launch when you successfully connect to PeerServer
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> conn.on('open', function(){
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // here you have conn.id
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> conn.send(hx.swap.outerHTML); // send outerHTML to p2p(WebRTC)
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> });
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! here.... an idea!
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Idea
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> ```html
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <!---
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> htmx gives you access to AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML, using attributes, so you can build modern user interfaces with the simplicity and power of hypertext
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> https://htmx.org/attributes/hx-swap/
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> --->
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <script src="https://unpkg.com/peerjs@1.3.2/dist/peerjs.min.js"></script>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <script src="webmention.min.js" data-id="webmention-container" async></script>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div hx-target="this" hx-swap="outerHTML" web_mention="replied"><!--- web_mention: replied, liked, reposted, reacted, bookmarked, mentioned, RSVPed, followed, Responses, mention, Reactions --->
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>First Name</label>: Joe</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>Last Name</label>: Blow</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <div><label>Email</label>: joe@blow.com</div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <button hx-get="/contact/1/edit" class="btn btn-primary">
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Click To Edit
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> </button>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> </div>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> <script>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // https://peerjs.com/
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // PeerJS simplifies WebRTC peer-to-peer data, video, and audio calls.
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // https://github.com/PlaidWeb/webmention.js/
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superkuh ...
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297>
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> var conn = peer.connect('another-peers-id');
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // on open will be launch when you successfully connect to PeerServer
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> conn.on('open', function(){
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> // here you have conn.id
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> conn.send(hx.swap.outerHTML); // send outerHTML to p2p(WebRTC)
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aaronpk omg plz don't paste multi line code into chat 😂😂😂
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> my concept is htmx(AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML)+peerjs(WebRTC)+webmentions
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> my concept is htmx(AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML)+peerjs(WebRTC)+webmentions(webmention.js)
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> my concept is htmx(AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML)+peerjs(WebRTC)+webmentions(webmention.js) - I'm trying to create a new api with these latest ideas I googled or research
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> My concept is htmx(AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML)+peerjs(WebRTC)+webmentions(webmention.js) - I'm trying to create a new api with these latest ideas I googled or research
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superkuh "directly in HTML" via running a javascript library.
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petermolnar jeez, no
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petermolnar that's overcomplicating something that's working fine
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petermolnar what would even be the point?
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> I'm thinking of creating a very minimal api for webmentions and I wanted to know your opinion
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> I'm thinking of creating a very minimal api for webmentions and I wanted to know your guys opinion
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IWDiscordGateway <IWIRCGateway> you already have one: POST it.
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IWDiscordGateway <IWIRCGateway> @nkot56297 these channels are bridged to IRC, Matrix, and Slack; please don't paste long lines and code directly, but use a service like pastebin and link to it. On the IRC side, which is our main interface, it's very hard to read, as it becomes a message line by line.
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petermolnar @nkot56297 webmentions don't need APIs, because it's a protocol as is: literally all you need to do is send a single HTTP POST request.
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petermolnar That is all.
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petermolnar so, again, what would be the point to add layers and layers of convoluted things on top of that?
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petermolnar what are you trying to achieve?
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> it's just a proof of concept
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jeremycherfas Resent too.
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petermolnar "it's just a proof of concept"
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petermolnar but for that purpose?
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> Hi all! here.... an idea!
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petermolnar thought experiment?
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> thank you for feedback
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petermolnar you still didn't tell us what is the point
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> thank you for feedback... so... I remove the code, sorry
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IWDiscordGateway <IWIRCGateway> Also: message edits and threads don't work cross the bridges
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IWDiscordGateway <IWIRCGateway> just type a new one and send it
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> my point is that I wanted to create a minimal api to run on the client side
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> my point is that I wanted to create a minimal api webmentions to run on the client side
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petermolnar so you want to send webmentions strictly from the client side, sure: send a http POST
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petermolnar you can do that with a form
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petermolnar an oldschool HTML form
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> so... my idea is to use htmx for this
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petermolnar htmx is an addon, you can trigger form sending with it
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petermolnar like we did back in the early AJAX days with prototype.js
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> this is a great idea...
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> this is a great idea... so... thank you so much for the feedback, you are amazing
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IWDiscordGateway <nkot56297> this is a great idea... so... thank you so much for the feedback, you are amazing - you clarified my doubts with few words
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petermolnar htmx is not needed for this either to be honest. Check docs on https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/FormData/Using_FormData_Objects
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petermolnar it has a reasonable browser support https://caniuse.com/xhr2
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petermolnar @nkot56297 my advice is first approach these problems with vanilla js; sites like MDN and smaller things like https://youmightnotneedjquery.com could help a lot
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petermolnar it is different if you want to use htmx to learn it of course
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jacky petermolnar: I disagree, htmx has a lot of functionality that reduces a lot of bolierplate
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jacky namely the hot swapping of HTML to targeted places in the page, triggering CSS animations,e tc
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jacky the perk of it being extensible (bringing what you need) is a big win for me to (b/c with JS tree shaking, its dep range is smaller)
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jacky https://htmx.org/examples/update-other-content/ + https://htmx.org/examples/confirm/ are two things I do _a lot_ for my projects
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petermolnar I didn't say it's bad
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petermolnar all I said that in case you only need to trigger sending a form, it's an overkill
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eb hi all, I have some confusions about h-card. I'm first unsure if every page on my site should have it in the first place. assuming each page does have a h-card, and the page is site.com/carrot. should the u-url be site.com and the u-uid be site.com/carrot? The u-url should also be a RelMe. Should my mastodon RelMe be another u-url or something different?
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petermolnar h-card doesn't need a u-uuid
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jacky ah for sure, my fault for that confusion
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petermolnar imo the h-card could and should be the same everywhere
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petermolnar with absolute urls
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jacky tantek's site begs to differ 😉️
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aaronpk What is authorship?
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Loqi authorship is how to indicate who the author is for a post, and an algorithm that determines the author of a post https://indieweb.org/authorship
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aaronpk there are some options there
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eb ok so I should ignore u-uid, put the h-card on every page, and make the u-url my domain on every page.
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GWG eb: What is on each page?
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GWG For posts, you could have a u-author property that links back to the full h-card on your domain.
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aaronpk There are multiple options depending on how you want to do it
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jacky [jamesg483]: I tried to manually send a Webmention from https://jacky.wtf/2022/5/eH5u using your site's form and I got a 502
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jacky lemme know if my markup is causing any issues
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Loqi As I'm not a big coffee drinker, I'll vote for no cups. I grew up drinking tea a lot and outside the occasional cup of coffee for my mom, I haven't really had any!
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eb How should I markup my mastodon url? another u-url?
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jacky I think rel-me would be best: https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Why
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eb Yeah it's already rel-me, was not sure if I should add something more
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jacky not that I can think of
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[tantek] what's the use-case for "add[ing] something more"? if there is none, not worth asking the question of if / how to
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[tantek] GWG, in most recent years, people do photo trend/challenge by making up a hashtag for it, proposing it, then others who agree to join also post photos with that hashtag. Anyone who wants to "follow" can follow posts with that hashtag. That's "current practice"
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[tantek] start with that, and describe what aspects of that don't work for you if there are further problems to solve
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eb Spec complience is important to me
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jacky you might be happy (or terrified) to know that it's pretty loose
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[jamesg483] jacky What endpoint was your mention sent to?
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[tantek] eb, don't waste your time implementing specs without a use-case for what the spec is claiming to solve
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[tantek] otherwise you'll implement tons of garbage useless specs out there
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[tantek] always start with your own use-case and what problem you are trying to solve
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jacky whichever endpoint that's used by the form at the bottom of https://jamesg.blog/2022/05/17/coffee-frequency/
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Loqi [James] Poll: How much coffee you drink in a day?
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jacky right now, I also use https://telegraph.p3k.io to send webmentions
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[jamesg483] Can you try and send it via Telegraph?
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[fluffy] [jamesg483] over in #chat I mentioned what the problem is, you're declaring multiple endpoints and the one that's taking priority (the Link header) doesn't work.
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GWG [tantek]: Then the question is how you follow hashtags from people you don't necessarily know...so a discovery issue
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[tantek] GWG, many platforms allow you to do that
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[tantek] what is a hashtag
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Loqi hashtags are the use of the hash "#" symbol followed immediately by a word/phrase/abbreviation to explicitly denote a topic inline in a post https://indieweb.org/hashtag
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[tantek] GWG, if you mean across the web, that's what the Technorati Tags feature did for blogs, and also showing recent Flickr photos and Delicious links with a particular tag
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[tantek] but that service/feature no longer exists, so someone would have to build it
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GWG That's where I was going with it...you tag your post with the url of the initiating source..and it gets done that way
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GWG So, I want people to participate in my photo challenge.. the topic is liquid..I create a page on my site that everyone tags and that generates a list for people
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[tantek] GWG, for examples, see https://indieweb.org/hashtags#Silo_support — I linked a few
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[tantek] rather than "tag your post with the url of the initiating source" (that sounds like just a "reply"), the Technorati approach was to link to the tag aggregator where you wanted your post to show-up. Now with webmention that might actually be feasible in a p2p site to site way
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[tantek] link specifically to the tag aggregation page for the tag
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[tantek] e.g. example.com/aggregate/tagname or something
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GWG I'm saying the post would be the aggregator.
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GWG Or the page
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GWG Whatever URL it is.
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[tantek] it seems weird to call a list of comments "aggregation"
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[tantek] like overuse of the word
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[jamesg483] That is a good point.
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[jamesg483] “aggregation” implies a curation of different sources that is not contingent upon submissions by people.
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GWG [tantek]: It could be a page on my site. An event, what have you. Or someone could build tags.indieweb.org that would receive webmentions on any arbitrary tag
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GWG So, would the proper way to link to a tag aggregator be a p-category with a URL of the aggregator? Or is there a better way?
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GWG Again, I think I could build a simple page to receive these, so why not.
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sknebel isnt that kinda what indieweb.xyz is in a way?
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sknebel althogh it has the classic link aggregator style of headline per article
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sknebel which is probably not quite what you are looking for
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[tantek] I think capjamesg hit upon a good detail, "not contingent upon [explicit] submission]
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[jamesg483] For the image idea we had there would need to be a photo element but yes sknebel there are similarities in functionality.
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GWG I just think as a community, we should be doing activities that involve content creation. That would encourage people in a positive manner. But we don't have the infrastructure quite right for it.
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GWG It relies on someone to go find all the sites doing something.
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[jamesg483] I agree.
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[jamesg483] I’d participate in a X days of Y challenge assuming X wasn’t too big and Y was something that lots of people could participate in.
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[jamesg483] (photography, coding, open source, writing)
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[jamesg483] And then we’d be able to aggregate community efforts around that thing, sort of like micro.blog.
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[tantek] what is 100 days
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Loqi A 100 days project in the IndieWeb community is a challenge to do or make something and post about it on your own site every day for 100 days https://indieweb.org/100_days
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[jamesg483] As a prospective participant, I’d love this sort of collaborative competition thing.
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[tantek] ^ capjamesg if you're looking for ideas, inspiration 🙂
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[jamesg483] Where you can submit your challenge response and the rest of the community can do so to the same page.
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[jamesg483] This isn’t new to GWG though because we discussed this at the weekend 🙂
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[jamesg483] tantek I was looking at that page today!
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GWG Yes, I just want to automate the collection of these things
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[jamesg483] I am travelling at the weekend but I hope to take on a challenge after that.
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[jamesg483] GWG +1
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GWG I know [snarfed] likes to say manual till it hurts...but this is multiple people being manual...so it hurts. People can send a webmention, we just need a target.
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sknebel for a challenge even just someone that posts daily and replies go under that post works
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sknebel as a variant of "manual" in the sense of "not writing new code"
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sknebel there's also these filtered feeds like the one aaronpk has that shows all mentions of indieweb in a list, that could also be an existing component (not sure if the code is open somewhere)
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[jamesg483] We did discuss the idea of creating a “planet” of feeds but it would be contingent upon people putting their submissions in different feeds.
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[fluffy] For a poll response there could maybe be a new mention type with a data response akin to p-rsvp?
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[fluffy] Like maybe p-poll-response
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[jamesg483] fluffy I was trying to avoid that 😂 But that idea did cross my mind.
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[fluffy] Feeedorm data has its own set of problems of course
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[jamesg483] I can’t think of another microformat that suits this need cc [tantek].
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[jamesg483] This would make things a lot easier.
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[jamesg483] I wouldn’t need four separate URLs for voting.
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[fluffy] Freeform even
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[jamesg483] Just one.
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[jamesg483] And I can aggregate based on the microformats in the comment.
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[fluffy] Yeah and also the UX on the incoming notes would be better
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[jamesg483] +1
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[jamesg483] p-answer?
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[fluffy] That feels too much like in-reply-to
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[jamesg483] Fair.
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[jamesg483] How would p-poll-response work in your mind fluffy?
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[fluffy] Badly
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[jamesg483] 😂
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GWG I was still thinking of u-category with the url of the page and then just having my webmention recever render that differently
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[fluffy] At best there'd be a string that needs some sort of match rule and the receiver needs to be tolerant of misspellings and invented write-in responses.
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GWG I wonder what it would take to add the ability to receive mentions to my tag archives
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[tantek] might be worth starting with separating /poll from /question
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[tantek] capjamesg, the use-case is still not really well defined / documented in a way that leads towards good technical solutions
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[tantek] basically we should separate the Quora use-case from the Twitter/IG poll use-case and document them on their own pages
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[tantek] because they're *very* different in terms of requirements to make a system "work"
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GWG I'm more interested in discovery and content than polls, but I'm not disinterested in polls
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[tantek] GWG, indeed those are different too
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GWG Maybe I'll experiment
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[jamesg483] What is a poll?
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Loqi question is a post type for soliciting answer replies, which are then typically up/down voted by others and then displayed underneath the question post ordered by highest positive vote count rather than time ordered https://indieweb.org/poll
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[jamesg483] tantek I agree. I didn’t want to break our current page.
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[tantek] the problem is the current /question page is already kinda broken in that it mixes up the two types in not a great way
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[tantek] we do have this at least:
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[tantek] what is a Twitter poll
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Loqi Twitter Poll is a Twitter feature that lets you post a poll question with up to four answers for people to choose from https://indieweb.org/Twitter_poll
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[aciccarello] What does instagram call the form boxes on stories? Question box?
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@GodMortis69 ↩️ Cononical , webmention & RSS ? I am MUCH dumber (twitter.com/_/status/1526635102695895040)
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[KevinMarks] By analogy with vote links you'd have u-vote-for u-vote-against and u-vote-abstain
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[tantek] sounds excessively complex
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[tantek] simple to use reacji, like GitHub does
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[tantek] simpler*
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[Scott_Jack] aciccarello Instagram has polls, questions, and sliders
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[tantek] right, polls are one from a set of choices, questions have a free-from text box to answer, and sliders are a linear unspecified range input with an optional emoji as the "knob" on the slider
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@schnarfed ↩️ Hey, no worries! Yup, site is WordPress, social responses are Bridgy/webmention. Thanks for the kind words! (twitter.com/_/status/1526678120509476864)
nixer, AramZS, jacky, tetov-irc, gRegor and mlncn joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich] [jamesg483] I've not seen anyone try it, but you might also collect responses to fragments on a particular voting page/URL, so people could vote by sending a webmention to a single page, but use a handful of (flexible) responses or even make up their own responses. Example: https://example.com/vote#yes, https://example.com/vote#no, https://example.com/vote#abstain, https://example.com/vote#hippotamus,
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[chrisaldrich] https://example.com/vote#IJustWantToSeeTheResult. This makes it relatively easy (?) for users to publish a response and puts the onus on the receiver for sorting/displaying the results.
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[chrisaldrich] This could get around the issue of needing to standardize a pre-set number of responses or create new microformats. One might also be able to leverage some of the pre-existing work on /media_fragment or /marginalia?
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[chrisaldrich] For silos that support backfeed, the URL "vote" acts as easy advertisement not only for the voting page itself, but also reasonably clearly indicates the respondents vote, and when clicked on could target the part of the page which has collected those responses.
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[chrisaldrich] It's been a while since anyone has worked on them, but this could also potentially dovetail easily with /webactions too.
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[chrisaldrich] The UI feature of this that isn't as nice is that for many in the silo world, you're using "ugly" URLs which aren't as friendly.