#dev 2022-05-25

2022-05-25 UTC
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Might be interesting to some folks here: https://tech.lgbt/@chaosexanima/108357484840294943
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IWDiscordGateway <person>
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Contractor work potentially available to make Tumblr indie web compatible
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Loqi [echo ✨] Uh I just got DMed by the COO of Tumblr asking about hiring contractors to make us fully #indieweb compliant, and possibly even #fediverse integration. Anyone out there looking for work?
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IWDiscordGateway <person> I haven't done any due diligence on it, so it may not be real. But if it is real, might be interesting to folks
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[tantek] person, yes it's quite real. say hi to [echo] 🙂
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> I am very excited by this.
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Working on Tumblr IndieWeb integrations is a dream 🙂
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Loqi capjamesg has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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[tantek] capjamesg++ indeed! looking forward to seeing what you can get done!
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> From #indieweb:
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg>
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Just thinking about post mappings:
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg>
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Text: h-entry
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Photo: u-photo
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Quote: u-quotation-of
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Link: u-like-of, u-bookmark-of?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Chat: I'm not too sure about this one as I need to research the intent
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Audio: [tantek] any thoughts on this one? h-entry w/ u-audio attribute?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Video: h-entry w/ u-video?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Reblog: u-repost-of?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> - Like: u-like-of
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg>
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Then comments would be h-entry w/ u-in-reply-to (each with their own URLs).
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg>
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> [fluffy] I like your idea of "mentioning by page URL." People > feeds.
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> One question that's on my mind is how webmentions would be accepted, too. Would all posts be created and then immediately sent to a Tumblr webmention endpoint? Or could there be some kind of expedited review so that Tumblr doesn't have to make what could be millions of HTTP requests to their own site to validate standard interactions (i.e. likes).
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> I'm shooting in the dark with that question because I'd need to know about Tumblr's back-end. Perhaps we have discussed this in the past, too?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> This all excites me beyond comprehension 😄
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petermolnar capjamesg: please remember that IRC doesn't like multiline messages :)
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Oh no...
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> My apologies to everyone, especially for duplicating a multi-line message twice over...
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capjamesg Back to IRC I hop.
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@hankchizljaw ↩️ That didn't last long. It's all fun doing blog > tweet, but I probably need to get some Bridgy/Webmentions business going to be able to chat to folks about stuff (twitter.com/_/status/1529403144890900481)
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@BekoPharm ↩️ @Tryyton retweets are 'hydrated' so they'd get the latest on Twitter. Others like Webmentions or ActivityPub do hav… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529091311164325888 (twitter.com/_/status/1529091311164325888)
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[KevinMarks] [jamesg483] that's pretty much what I did, thigh I need to check the repost markup. Have a look in the repo.
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capjamesg Thank you!
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capjamesg I think I'm going to stick with IRC for a while. I know I have three different IndieWeb chat accounts :D
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capjamesg GWG have you thought any more on the challenges idea?
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GWG Nothing new, but been busy with life
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[Scott_Jack] indieweb is lyfe gwg
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[Scott_Jack] kidding, amazed with all you get done especially with work being as hectic as it sounds
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GWG I haven't been very productive this quarter
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GWG I need to help finish the webmention upgrade.. that's a two year plus ask
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@dam Personal blog with federation and webmentions is like medium, twitter and facebook all in one without the ad targeting and privacy invasion. (twitter.com/_/status/1529494019918598144)
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@PatrickHeneise ↩️ Didn’t know about webmentions, very interesting https://jmac.org/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/1529499464532393985)
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[tantek] capjamesg, what problem are you trying to solve with "post mapping"?
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[tantek] and have you read through post type discovery?
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capjamesg [tantek] Understanding what markup is required for Tumblr post types as mentioned in [fluffy]'s post.
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capjamesg (i.e. audio, video, quotations)
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capjamesg It's more exploratory.
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capjamesg Yes, I have. I wrote a PTD implementation for indieweb-utils.
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[tantek] "required" for what goal?
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[tantek] or goals?
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[tantek] and yes the Tumblr focus makes more sense now
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capjamesg I just mean in aiding understanding about what microformats would be used for Tumblr markup.
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capjamesg (i.e. how should Tumblr mark up an audio post, for instance)
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[tantek] again, for what end goal? markup is never an end goal. markup is a means to achieving some use-case that is actually visibly useful to someone
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capjamesg Ah, got it.
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capjamesg That is fair. I think the foundation is just h-entry for parsing / helping Webmention support.
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[tantek] write down those actual use-cases first, or else you will spend LOTS of time in markup details/debates that won't actually help anyone
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[tantek] again, both h-entry and Webmention are plumbing, to achieve what particular interop goals?
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[tantek] write down what you want to be able to do with Tumblr posts after this effort, that you can't do now
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capjamesg [tantek]++
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Loqi [tantek] has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (82 in all channels)
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capjamesg I love the way you think.
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capjamesg Outcomes first, markup details later.
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capjamesg That's a blog post idea :D
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[Scott_Jack] “If a man knows not to which port he sails, no wind is favorable.”
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[KevinMarks] That was the gist of my email to Tumblr. Mf2 support is for h-feed readers, and for outgoing webmentions
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[fluffy] Yeah in my blog post I purposefully avoided talking about Tumblr post types for the most part, aside from a couple of mentions of image posts. I was focused mostly on the interaction verbs.
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[fluffy] Tumblr post types are…. weird.
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[fluffy] Like they’re more of an editor template than anything expressed in the post itself, but they have weird implications with how reblogs work
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jacky is oddly looking into seeing editor templating is something he could wrangle into Micropub
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[fluffy] although some of the post types get really weird, like the “quote” post type is impossible to actually, uh, quote in a reblog
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[fluffy] There isn’t really a clean/clear mapping between Tumblr interactions and IndieWeb mention types, and the IndieWeb mention vs. post type thing is also a little awkward. Like it’s very easy for an IndieWeb post to fit multiple post types and this causes all sorts of weirdness in the various edge cases.
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[fluffy] at least from a user-facing POV, a Tumblr image post is basically a regular blog post except it starts out with a gallery of up to 10 images, and they’re treated subtly different than inline images. You can put inline images in most other post types though, and I see plenty of folks doing like… here’s a comic where the comic part is in the gallery, and then there’s an inline image after the commentary to provide an extra bit
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[fluffy] content. Like https://whatsupbeanie.tumblr.com/ does that.
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[fluffy] And it’s similar for video posts, where a “video post” has a special blessed slot for the player at the top, but you’re still free to add an inline video (or images or whatever) within the post body as well.
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[fluffy] but the inline videos have other restrictions, like I think they have to be an embed rather than a direct upload or something
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[tantek] One way to think about Tumblr/IndieWeb use-cases is what are things you can do on Tumblr that reference/quote/reply to another Tumblr post? Now ask how could you do that exact thing on Tumblr but reference/quote/reply to an IndieWeb post? What is needed to make that work?
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[fluffy] Yeah that’s kind of what I was trying to focus on in my rambly blog post
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[tantek] It's important to summarize a problem statement in a *brief* statement like that, both for general readability, and frankly accessibility for those with attention-span challenges that glaze at paragraphs of text.
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[fluffy] in IndieWeb I haven’t seen much `u-repost-of` in the wild and I don’t know if there’s like any common conventions used
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[fluffy] totally fair, tantek
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[fluffy] My blog post was more of a midnight ramble rather than a specific technical document
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[tantek] of course I'm not saying summarizing is "easy". the act of writing/copy-editing itself is "hard"
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[tantek] and in that respect also not accessible to all
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[tantek] so we try to do the best we can do, and help each other do better when we can
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[tantek] (no shaming here to be clear)
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[KevinMarks] That was my first pass at the template code, and my second pass is to build test cases with a parser and compare. Mastodon has a repost model too that Ben spent some time on, but I'm not sure if many readers support it yet
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[tantek] (if it wasn't clear, please feel free to copy/steal any such summaries I offer and re-use them at will without worry about citing etc.)
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[fluffy] Atom also has a repost model that is basically completely unused. The only thing I’ve seen that does anything with it is Feed on Feeds’ “sharing feed”
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[tantek] Atom has LOTS of features that are basically completely unused
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[fluffy] I’m sure there’s other implementations of it in the wild but like. yeah.
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[fluffy] Atom had so much potential but it was kind of the wrong place and wrong time.
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[tantek] if Atom had gone through a filter of (1) create tests for each feature (publishing & consuming), (2) drop all features without two interoperable implementations of both publishing & consuming, then Atom would be a much more sensible minimal spec
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[tantek] (that (1) and (2) process is essentially what W3C does in the CR / Candidate Recommendation phase)
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[fluffy] I still think it’s better than RSS and I still want to support it properly, but it tries way too hard to be its own thing rather than being a supplement to the web-first experience
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[tantek] of course it's lots better than RSS.
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[tantek] I'm saying there's only a meaningful subset of Atom to pay attention to. Most of it is ignorable theory
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[fluffy] like Atom was clearly trying to build its own separate little social universe that just happened to have a mapping to the web
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[fluffy] but a lot of the social universe things were kind of half-baked
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[tantek] no it was trying to aspire. it was trying to build, it would have actually gotten built
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[tantek] I have to deal with lots of theoreticians / academics in standards and I'm basically at zero patience with their aspirations at this point.
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[fluffy] yeah
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[tantek] Implementing things moves the web forward, not academic dreams / papers / hand-waving.
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[tantek] The worse problem is even "engineers" are vulnerable to getting sucked into academic/theoretical purity/ideals debates — this is precisely why I pushback here so often about "what is the actual problem being solved?"
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[fluffy] I mean it felt like atom didn’t want to be part of the web, it just wanted to be its own Thing that just happened to be based on HTTP and very aspirational XML
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[tantek] sure, that was true in a cultural sense. Atom was created in the context of XML-fetish culture.
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[fluffy] the fact that the actual webpage for an item is a rel=“alternate” and is also optional, for example
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[tantek] which has been replaced by JSON-fetish culture
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[fluffy] yeah and at least atom embedded HTML for its <content> bits, unlike ActivityPub which seems to want to do its own markup subset or something (I’m still not clear on that, but like, the way image sets work in ActivityPub is confusing and obnoxious from what I’ve seen)
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[tantek] "its own markup subset" AKA ActivityStreams 2.0 < AS 1.0 JSON < AS 1.0 XML < Atom+AS1 < Atom
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[tantek] Enough on that rant though.
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[tantek] capjamesg: Another way to think of Tumblr/IndieWeb use-cases: what are typical things you do with your IndieWeb site that reference/quote/reply other IndieWeb posts? Now ask how could you do those exact things on IndieWeb but reference/quote/reply to a Tumblr post? What is needed to make that work and look like any other good IndieWeb to IndieWeb experience?
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[fluffy] one thing I definitely appreciate about IndieWeb mf2-based stuff is that it’s built on top of the webpages that it’s in service of, like there’s no duality between a “feed item” and the actual page, the item *is* the page it’s on. Atom doesn’t make it remotely clear about what the canonical way of linking to an item from another item should be, and it all becomes a confusing mess of URNs and whatnot. h-feed is a much cl
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[tantek] right, Atom tried to replace the need for HTML in a smaller set of use-cases, and did so badly (of course XML itself was a poor attempt at replacing HTML, so Atom/XML was kinda doomed in that regard from the start — doomed at replacing HTML)
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[tantek] all part of the mass technologist hallucination of trying to do everything with XML in the early 2000s
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[fluffy] I think the only objection I have to h-feed is that it doesn’t do a great job of handling the “read more” case but it’s not like Atom/RSS actually handle that either, they just sorta handwave around it
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[tantek] we should document and solve that (the read more case)
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[tantek] there's a need for a property in between p-summary and e-content
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Loqi yea
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[fluffy] yeah, or maybe e-content with a u-continued or something
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[tantek] or a way to indicate that an e-content is only "partial" and there's more elsewhere
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[tantek] we can start from existing UI examples
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[tantek] best way to document a problem / use-case 🙂
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[fluffy] yeah, plenty of prior art in that. like pretty much every Movable Type blog ever, as well as tumblr, livejournal, etc.
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[tantek] right, I wasn't questioning the existence of prior art, more asking about the specifics
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[fluffy] livejournal’s mechanism was incredibly general and was more like <detail> than a below-the-fold cut though
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[tantek] like what specific phrase do those use? is it literally "Read more..." ?
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[tantek] is there any pattern to what the prior art calls this feature or in the microcopy they use?
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[fluffy] MT and Publ (and I think Tumblr) just separate the content into the entry “body” and the entry “more text”
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[tantek] from the authoring perspective?
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[fluffy] yeah
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[tantek] that's good to capture too
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[fluffy] well and from the data model
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[tantek] I was wondering from the viewing perspective
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[fluffy] from the viewing perspective it’s up to the template but *typically* if an entry has “more text” then on the feed/category/whatever it renders the “body” text and then <a href=“entry-url”>Read more…</a> yeah
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[fluffy] but there are definitely templates that put the ‘more text’ into the feed/category/whtaever view too.
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[fluffy] and Publ also supports “attachments” for things that don’t neatly fit into the body/more model. For example, on my comics, the “more text” is used for the occasional below-comic blurbs, while transcripts are done as attachments. But that’s just the convention I settled on, and a lot of webcomics that use Wordpress I think put the transcript into the “more text”
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[tantek] I'm curious about the literal text. Do all those use "Read more..." or do they use other phrases? "Continued..." etc.?
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[fluffy] Again, it’s up to the template.
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[tantek] or "More..."
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[fluffy] I’ve seen plenty of different phrasings for the link itself.
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[tantek] not asking if it's changeable, but rather are there patterns, defaults, emergent more common practices
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[fluffy] “Read more…” is pretty common but I’ve definitely seen “continued,” “more,” or even like “continue reading (258 words)” or whatever
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[fluffy] on LJ the “cut” would usually have a title for what the cut is about
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[tantek] [fluffy] if you want, feel free to file this as a "Feature request: figure out a way to explicitly support partial entry content and read more link to full content" issue on https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues with perhaps a "social reader full content" use-case to at least capture something to track
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[fluffy] good idea
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[tantek] we probably want both the issue to track progress, and a wiki page to capture / document existing practices. we can do those in parallel 🙂
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gRegor "Read More" is the most common text I've seen for it, and implemented on several work client's news/blog pages
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[snarfed] my Wordpress theme uses "Continue reading →", but that's the theme, not WP itself. eg https://snarfed.org/#post-45963
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] We’re drowning
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[fluffy] [tantek] Issue opened, and I probably went into probably too much detail https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/28
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Loqi [fluffy-critter] #28 Support for partial entry content in a feed context
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[KevinMarks] I've used <details><summary> for CW/read more
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jacky reads scrollback
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[fluffy] yeah I use detail/summary on my individual item pages but I don’t like putting that into a feed, since readers tend to filter that stuff out
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[fluffy] also on my site, detail/summary is more or less orthogonal to a readmore, and the point to a readmore is to also cut down on resource utilization, both from a bandwidth perspective and from an image rendition perspective.
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[fluffy] Like my feed templates render images at a lower resolution than my entry pages, and if someone’s getting the full content I’d rather they see the full-size renditions.
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[tantek] [fluffy]++ for an A++ well-written and structured issue!
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Loqi [fluffy] has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (33 in all channels)
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[tantek] I also think CW might be a sufficiently different use-case to offer a different solution
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[tantek] e.g. I could see a post body/content in an in-stream context that started with a CW: XYZ using <details><summary>, and then when "twiddled open" would show the in-stream partial body/content with a "Read more..." link at the bottom
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[tantek] e.g. a long movie review that contained spoilers
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[tantek] e.g. "CW: spoilers for Multiverse of Madness"
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[tantek] one goal would be to markup enough about both the CW and the Read more so that a social reader could present a similar two-stage UI of first hiding the partial post content behind a CW, and then when that was opened up, the social reader was able to go retrieve the rest of the post content (via a "continued" link or whatever mechanism) to display the entirety of the post content
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[fluffy] yeah I mean they do compose orthogonally
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[fluffy] on my own site I present a CW as a readmore from the feed/category page and then there’s a further <detail> on the individual entry page
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[fluffy] reason for that being that if someone lands on the CW’ed content page from an adjacent entry or a search result or whatever I don’t want them being shocked by something they weren’t expecting.
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[fluffy] It’s extremely bad UX to assume a certain navigation path to an item
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[tantek] I agree with all of that analysis
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[tantek] Probably good guidance we can capture on the CW page
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[tantek] what is a content warning
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Loqi content warning is a feature of a post create UI where an author can hide by default some or all of the primary content of a post due to some concern about the nature of the content https://indieweb.org/content_warning
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[fluffy] particularly prominent example being https://beesbuzz.biz/articles -> https://beesbuzz.biz/5195. Someone navigating that way knows what to expect. Someone navigating there from, say, https://beesbuzz.biz/articles/43-Keyboard-io-Model-01 does not.
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[fluffy] “Oh hey here’s a detailed review on an ergonomic keyboard. I wonder what the next article is.”
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[KevinMarks] I'm doing TWiG tonight, so suggestiosn for topics welcome
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IWDiscordGateway <person> @capjamesg re: your comments on Tumblr webmentions earlier this week: I'd propose having a default setup with additional options users can turn on. So for example: by default any webmention from a Tumblr account displays automatically the way reblogs and replies are now. But additionally, you can turn on "global webmentions", which allows you to be notified of webmentions from outside of Tumblr and there may be an addi
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IWDiscordGateway <person>
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Opening up a semi-walled garden can be jarring, especially given how insular Tumblr culture is (with no algorithmic feed, it feels more like a small pond). So having options for users feels like a good stepping stone. It's inline with other permissions as well: you can turn replies off on a Tumblr post as the author.
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[snarfed] ^ great examples of why the first IndieWeb work at Tumblr almost certainly needs to be _product_ work, not eng
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[snarfed] (cc [echo])
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Yeah. There's definitely some low hanging fruit like "add microformats to replies". But there's a lot of product questions in my mind like...
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IWDiscordGateway <person> - is a reblog an entry, a reply, or a repost? And how do you communicate that, because "repost" means something very specific and negative on Tumblr.
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IWDiscordGateway <person> - can you integrate webmentions into standalone Tumblr posts (aka "you link to a Tumblr or WordPress blog post and we send them a webmention")? And if so, how do you communicate that option to users?
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IWDiscordGateway <person> etc etc
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IWDiscordGateway <person>
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Aside from just generally...as an engineer, anytime I've started work on a large feature without a strong product requirements doc, I've regretted it XD
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[snarfed] or even more importantly, product person
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[snarfed] since req'ts always evolve, and usually end up better for it
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IWDiscordGateway <person> 100%. I guess I see a dedicated product person as a prereq to a good product requirements doc.
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IWDiscordGateway <person> But that's not always possible
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IWDiscordGateway <person> I know if Tumblr is looking for a contractor to come in and get the ball rolling, they're probably thinking about it as a small side project, but those of us in this community know this can be a transformational feature if done right.
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IWDiscordGateway <person>
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Tumblr is one of the engines of the internet, you could definitely take this to all WordPress sites and even other large websites like the NYT, etc and say "Hey, we're gonna start sending you webmentions. Do you want to supplement your comments section with this?" And some sites will say yes.
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Granted, that's me getting a little pie in the sky 🐑😅
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[KevinMarks] If they start receiving webmentions that is possibly another big project (I assume they aren't going to spin up a webmention,io cluster)
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Yeah for sure. I mean, there's a world in which they start by changing all replies to be webmentions and therefore they're "supporting internal webmentions". But I guess it's unclear why they'd do that unless they wanted to support receiving and sending webmentions externally. At minimum across WordPress and Tumblr.
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IWDiscordGateway <person> Receiving external web mentions would definitely be a huge engineering and design project regardless.