IWDiscordGateway<person> I guess it depends on what their definition of "fully IndieWeb compliant" is. And what fediverse integration they're considering.
@person72443↩️ Yeah, highly recommend y'all check out IndieWeb. I recently got my website IndieWeb compatible, it's pretty easy. And if you get webmentions working on your site, it feels like magic. (twitter.com/_/status/1529622234137972737)
echo[m]1<IWDiscordGateway> "<person> I haven't done any..." <- o hi! that was me. yes it's real, we're just trying to figure out what the budget and how many people we want and such. [Zandy_Ring] is also in the main #indieweb:libera.chat channel as the COO of Tumblr, i'm engineering 🤓
echo[m]1<IWDiscordGateway> "<capjamesg> One question that'..." <- so i can answer some questions about Tumblr's backend! it's... interesting, as a 15 year old PHP codebase only can be 🙃
echo[m]1<IWDiscordGateway> "<person> Tumblr is one of the..." <- i'm actually looking to get webmentions working on WP.com. like a bit part of how i'm trying to sell this internally is dangling some tasty OSS goodness in front of the WP.com behemoth.
echo[m]1i may actually jump back to slack for the main channel, the Matrix integration is very verbose due to the power level changes. if someone knows Matrix better than i i'd love to minimize those.
echo[m]1yeah i recently tried to set up my own matrix bridge (thus my fun TLD), but it's tricky. kudos to whoever managed this, there's so many ways to chat here 💖
echo[m]1<[fluffy]> "http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/9477-..." <- very cool post! honestly a lot went over my head, but yeahhh the whole reblog thing is tricky. also CWs are actually getting native Tumblr support in the next month or two, tho the implementation is different from something like Mastodon
echo[m]1tumblr is a weird niche in terms of content creation tho. we have massive sprawling posts (and frankly i'd LOVE to figure out Color of the Sky on Indieweb lolllll) but also a lot of short quippy stuff. it's a sort of half-way between WordPress and Twitter
aaronpkbtw echo[m] if you haven't yet had a chat with [manton] from micro.blog I would highly recommend it, since I suspect there are a lot of similarities between how micro.blog and tumblr approach indieweb standards
[fluffy]Yeah the more I learn about activitypub the less I want to do anything with it. You have to do so much to get a basic actor working and it also feels so limited.
echo[m]1question: does the Fediverse not run on AP? i thought PeerTube and BookWyrm and OtherCamelCaseApp run with it, and they don't seem to be Twitter clones
[fluffy]Whenever I go into a public rant about it people dismiss it as being mastodon-specific or something that will be solved with other implementations but I don’t see any other implementations trying to do a better job
[fluffy]And I’ve very much come around on mf2 h-feed as a syndication format. I used to be neutral if not negative about it but over time it makes more and more sense to me. ActivityPub has gone in the opposite direction.
[fluffy]Yeah post IDs are also an okay way to go, and that's what Publ uses for its request routing. But I had Reasons to also provide full UUIDs in Publ.
echo[m]1oh that's interesting, i'm surprised that the indieweb wiki is recommending Jetpack for POSSE. used to work there, there's a lot of interesting capabilities to leverage.
[manton][fluffy] Reading your Tumblr post… I’m strongly for @example.com for @-mentioning people by domain name. This is how Micro.blog works. It will auto-link and also send Webmentions to the domain name. I think it helps encourage domain names for identity. Allowing URL paths gets really messy.
[manton](By the way, noticed the Microformats parser I use blows up on your mailto links. Not sure if there’s an encoding issue there or what, maybe something to check.)
[fluffy]As much as IndieWeb folks are generally in the “one user per domain” you have things like tilde.club and neocities where the shared domain is part of the community
[manton]Maybe to restate my position: I think it would be valuable to have a convention of @example.com that many IndieWeb-friendly blogs / social networks support. If someone really needs example.com/user, that’s an edge case that can be handled in an application-specific way. Aliases or other shortcuts, or just normal HTML hyperlinks.
[fluffy]Well also I’m not a fan of one’s domain name being their identity. I post to beesbuzz.biz but that isn’t my name, that’s just a joke domain I decided to start using as my personal website.
[manton]Mostly the reason I care about this is that I find Mastodon’s @user@domain.com to be not great… A convention around @domain.com just seems better to me.
[fluffy]I guess my main hope is that there’d be some UX to make it easy for someone to refer to me as `<a href=“https://beesbuzz.biz/“>fluffy</a>` (looking forward to seeing how iOS slack messes THAT up…)
aaronpklike if my site has received a webmention from beesbuzz.biz and there's an h-card on that site with a nickname "fluffy" then my editor could suggest that @fluffy should actually link to that domain
[manton]For whatever it’s worth, if you type `hello @manton.org` (for example) into Micro.blog, it converts it to a Markdown link and saves it that way: `hello [@manton.org](https://manton.org/)`. Other systems might save as HTML or not.
aaronpkall i'm saying is there doesn't really need to be an agreement between all indieweb sites for this microsyntax because we don't interop on plain text we interop on HTML where none of that matters
[manton]I think the only reason I “worry” about these conventions is that I’d hate to see Tumblr adopt a syntax like @user@tumblr.com for mentions. It seems needlessly platform-specific, even if it’s all HTML in the end as [aaronpk] said.
[manton]Speaking of the Fediverse, I noticed recently that Mastodon is rejecting some of my requests with “request not signed”, for simple GETs to fetch someone’s profile JSON, which used to work fine without any signing. Anyone else hit this?
[snarfed]and aaronpk++ on mostly an editor problem. one option to make mentions explicit could be to add h-card to the link to signal that it's person mention. notation conventions are nice, but maybe not as important for indieweb interop, just within authoring tools/sites themselves
[fluffy]↩️ [echo] BTW, Slack threads don’t translate well to the various gateways, so we don’t use them here (unfortunately we don’t really have a good way to refer back to specific older chat messages)
[echo]i’m not particularly a fan of `@user@domain.com`. and it’s not entirely consistent whether Tumblr accounts have a subdomain or not. personally i was leaning more towards `blogname@tumblr.com` , although that resembles email in a few ways i’m eh on
[echo]like it really depends how we want to represent Tumblr on a product level to IndieWeb. are we a giant network with multiple users? or multiple blogs being hosted on the same platform?
[fluffy]Yeah the big concern I have (reiterating that this is *specific to tumblr integration* and not an indieweb-general concern) is how IndieWeb identities (i.e. profile URLs) will map to the Tumblr UX with how Tumblr presents posts, notes, etc.
[fluffy]Yeah. The issue I was trying to raise in my blog post is more that like… okay, beesbuzz.biz and beesbuzz.biz/blog and beesbuzz.biz/articles happen to all be run by the same person, but tilde.club/~alice and tilde.club/~bob aren’t, so you can’t just like rely on the domain name as being the presentational concept of what constitutes the “username”
[snarfed]yeah, we haven't robustly worked out how indieweb identity works when you don't have a [sub]domain to yourself, and honestly I don't know that we will
[snarfed]fortunately that's true for Tumblr too afaik. doesn't solve changing usernames/subdomains, as you mentioned, but then we haven't fully solved that kind of migration here either
[snarfed]figuring out even an MVP Tumblr IndieWeb product will be hard enough, I'd be inclined to start it with just the standard [sub]domain as identity, and not tackle other hard problems at the same time
[fluffy]IndieAuth client work for Tumblr feels like a fairly low priority for me since Tumblr already has its own native client and API (so no real pressing need for Micropub, although that’d be nice). IndieAuth *server* support would be great, though, I’d love for folks to be able to log in to my site with their Tumblr identity without me needing to add Tumblr-OAuth to Authl
[fluffy]But also there’s the whole like. If someone reblogs one of my blog posts, and someone decides to follow me from there, what feed do they end up following?
[fluffy]Even in IndieWeb that’s not a very well-solved problem right now though. Like beesbuzz.biz/blog/ is an h-feed feed that’s *just* my blog posts (and not even the ‘notes’ subcategory at beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/), but it declares Atom feeds for both /blog and /
[echo]regarding that PlaidWeb thing you linked, i can definitely see `t:DvRFDGL05g8KB0gwiBJv1A` style formatting being used as an internal indicator, with perhaps blogs having aliases ala Matrix
[fluffy]Yeah, as much as I dislike dealing with Wordpress themes, at least their structure makes things like mf2 support an incremental pluggable thing.
[tantek]I get that, was more wondering what happens when a user breaks even the HTML of their template, is there a way they can "validate" their template to find where the bugs are?
[tantek][echo] the other approach we have worked on a bit in the WordPress world (which GWG is familiar with) is a separate parallel mf2 feed which can serve all the rich IndieWeb post kinds etc. and not worry about markup-breakage from theme-tweaking
[tantek]no [fluffy] we have discussed this a long time ago, and repeatedly. rel=feed is a nonstarter because it doesn't work at all the way existing feed discovery works, and introduces even more complexity
[echo]sort of! what you did was the raw HTML, not any of the other files. we need to clean a bit up but we can release the full thing at some point, resourcing pending
[fluffy]regardless, it sounds like the best way for Tumblr to provide an h-feed is to do a sidecar mf2+html feed with an appropriate `<link rel="alternate">`
[KevinMarks]Also there are other sub feeds in there (eg recent likes and suggested posts) which I was trying not to mark up but may have got confused by
[fluffy]Yeah once you have to support it per-theme it becomes easier since you only have the one template to modify, the problem is that it *has* to be per-theme rather than having a shortcut of providing a sidecar feed that Just Works.
[snarfed]again though, before implementation details, [echo]the single biggest thing you could probably do to help the Tumblr side is to help find a PM (maybe you?) who can commit to the project, whether contract or full time
[echo]ehhh maybe i’ll do PM work? i don’t mind. but yeah we need to find a human who is willing to take point on the product side, but unfortunately in the short term we’re desperately strapped for people
[fluffy]Sending webmention is hard, because that requires adding mf2 to themes. Receiving webmention is hard, because mapping IndieWeb verbs to Tumblr verbs isn’t straightforward. Subscribing to external feeds is… probably not awful, aside from the whole “mapping Tumblr identities” thing, and would likely do a lot to make Tumblr a nice feed reader for the web in general.
[Zandy_Ring]just to chime in - we’re very much looking for engineering support. But I fully see how we need scoping and PM support, so don’t worry that it’s being brushed aside 🙂
[fluffy]The fake-user-per-feed thing might be the easiest way to get external feeds working on Tumblr. Maybe it can be a Tumblr Pro feature to be allowed to set those up?
[tantek]another approach to per-post mf2 would be an mf2 "island" inside the post that's marked up with <data value=""> tags separately from the rest of the theme. So they wouldn't be display but they would be picked up. It's not ideal (violates DRY) but could work
[manton][echo] Just to say again what I already said but maybe clearer… The problem with the Mastodon or email-style @-mentions is that they don't cleanly evolve to custom domain names like using subdomains do.
aaronpki don't think anyone is saying subdomains are a requirement, but what you don't want is to *require* that every user identity is a username @ domain
aaronpkthere's a lot of people who have just a domain name as their online identity and forcing a username into that is awkward. that's true with email too, which is why my email address is not aaron @ aaronparecki.com
[snarfed]blogs (ie [sub]domains) advertise a wm endpoint, and wms are sent to that endpoint with source and target posts. for incoming wms, Tumblr could then take that target post URL, look up its [sub]domain's history if necessary, interpret source post based on its mf2, and do anything you want with it
[snarfed]a wm happens at a point in time, from source to target URL. as the recipient, after you receive it, you can do whatever you want to it, including migrating it with its destination user if they switch usernames, subdomains, etc
[snarfed]usually to render it, you only need the source URL, which you fetch once and then extract its type, content, author, author profile image, etc
IWDiscordGateway<capjamesg> This ensures that, say, if I make a typo I can go fix it and my revised version could show up on the site to which I have sent the webmention.
IWDiscordGateway<capjamesg> I don’t know how many comments Tumblr gets per day but I have a feeling it’s going to be a massive number. Would Tumblr need to accept / send Webmentions and go through the whole HTTP request thing?
[snarfed]endpoint discovery for outbound wms would be the main scaling question. they'd probably want to cache that per domain with a generous expiration, like Bridgy does. it would be a bit of bandwidth but doable
LoqiA subdomain typically refers to a domain with one more "name(dot)" component than that which someone actually has registered which is often seen indieweb sites with a family name domain like joel(dot)franusic(dot)com, or often on silos like matt(dot)wordpress(dot)com https://indieweb.org/subdomain
[tantek]a-ha, so maybe getting an IndieAuth "identity" could be something you could "unlock" after having posted enough "interesting" content (insert some interaction measurement by other users)
[tantek]i.e. once someone has posted enough content that their site won't get taken down or re-assigned, THEN they get the ability to use it as an IndieAuth identity (without risk of reassignment)
[echo]maybe. i’d much rather provide some sort of identity checksum or similar if you are talking to the raw subdomain as an identity and not the internal `t:` uid
aaronpki'm hearing a lot of implementation discussions without hearing what the actual overall goals are here. especially with identity stuff, there's a lot of different factors to consider before talking about these kinds of things
aaronpki was seeing more interest in getting the webmention or feed following things working first, neither of which require indieauth or any authentication stuff
[tantek][echo] another place to look for explicit "goals" is what did the IndieWeb/Tumblr hybrid community (people that do/use "both") come up with already as manual workaround?
[tantek]aaronpk, both peer-to-peer interactions (let's not frame this as "webmention" the protocol), or peer-to-peer following (again, "feed" is an implementation detail) require some notion of (semi-)persistent "identity"
[tantek]the assumption that a subsequent webmention of the same source URL must update that webmention is based on persistent links, assumes the same entity is doing both
IWDiscordGateway<capjamesg> Could webmention update requests be made when a domain is assumed by a new owner that locks the old post and adds some text?
aaronpkyeah if you know the namespace of these IDs are all Tumblr that works, but then you need some way for a domain to say "this is hosted by tumblr so you can trust whatever they say the ID is"
[fluffy]just got out of meetings. incidentally I’ve finally added my actual-h-feed feed to my pages, if anyone wants to take a look and tell me how I messed up. 🙂 They’re disclosed as `<link rel="alternate" type="text/mf2+html">` and they link to the `everything` page for the category (which has been there for a while and was intended to be my h-feed page), and then the `everything` page itself declares an `h-feed` on the content sect
[fluffy]I guess I never figured out any sort of clear guidance on how to declare that in the case of having a UID that isn’t also the permalink URL. And I guess I *could* use my short-links as that because those are stable. So maybe I only need Publ’s UUID generation for Atom?
[fluffy]I think my thinking was originally that since it’s just above-the-fold that it’s just a summary, but that’s where the whole uh `u-continued` proposal comes in
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "e-summary" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "e-summary is ____", a sentence describing the term)
[tantek]e-summary is a microformats2 class name for publishing a summary property typically as part of an [[h-entry]], and is one way to publish a partial content in-stream entry in a homepage [[h-feed]], while indicating to [[social reader]]s that they may retrieve the entire content at the entry permalink.
[tantek]I think in practice all UIDs ("UUID"s) must be scoped to the domain, because you can't trust domains to make claims about other domains (CORS).
[tantek]which then ironically defeats the supposed primary use-case of UUIDs or Atom IDs of migrating a blog between domains, because there's no trustworthy to actually do that
[tantek]the *only* use-case I’ve come up with (which might be sufficient to get me to implement TBH) is having post IDs that DO NOT have the post slug in them if any
[fluffy]Yeah the whole reason I want UIDs on my posts is so that posts can be moved around to different URLs within the same site (due to a change in slug or the like) without it being seen as a dupe
[fluffy]It’d be totally reasonable for me to do a `u-uid` of `https://beesbuzz.biz/4614` or whatever instead of a `p-uid` of `5cf706b2-9029-41f1-ade4-32d4f70579f6`
[fluffy]Like if anything switching to u-uid is also more useful since there’s (currently) no way for me to map a UUID back to the originating item externally. But I kind of wanted it to be a one-way anonymous-ish mapping since it feels like it’s easier to maintain privacy that way.
[fluffy]like as it stands, if someone sees a deletion of a UUID they just know that I deleted *something*, but if the deletion references the post ID It’s easy to figure out what post was deleted via the wayback machine.
barnabyso readers/webmention clients etc can check the ID against things they’ve seen and remove it, but a consumer who’s never seen the content has little chance of finding copies of it
[tantek]that is, you can use this to delete an unlisted post for those that have seen it, without giving others a clue as to where to find it in the wayback machine
[tantek]tl;dr: you can hide their results for specific paths while you control your domain with robots.txt. However they expect to show results for paths when domains expire, robots.txt goes away etc.
@sheldon_hull↩️ I barely get comments on my blog. A few have been just like that. "Please tell me how to implement infra as code in AWS" or something feeling so unspecific like doing homework or something on it.
You could disable comments and use webmentions to leverage Twitter discussion (twitter.com/_/status/1529966407932338191)
IWDiscordGateway <person> I guess it depends on what their definition of "fully IndieWeb compliant" is. And what fediverse integration they're considering.
@brianleroux ↩️ think so, liking the indieauth approach and family of protocols the most currently (twitter.com/_/status/1529619024715587584)
@person72443 ↩️ Yeah, highly recommend y'all check out IndieWeb. I recently got my website IndieWeb compatible, it's pretty easy. And if you get webmentions working on your site, it feels like magic. (twitter.com/_/status/1529622234137972737)
aaronpk i think some of the articles linked from here get into some of the activitypub details https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub#Criticism
GWG aaronpk: I just got a 500 error from the Event Webmention endpoint, using the form, tried to send a webmention to https://events.indieweb.org/2022/05/homebrew-website-club-pacific-c3J3stHOdYUh from https://hobbit.cafe/82-2/
[manton] [fluffy] Reading your Tumblr post… I’m strongly for @example.com for @-mentioning people by domain name. This is how Micro.blog works. It will auto-link and also send Webmentions to the domain name. I think it helps encourage domain names for identity. Allowing URL paths gets really messy.
[fluffy] I guess my main hope is that there’d be some UX to make it easy for someone to refer to me as `<a href=“https://beesbuzz.biz/“>fluffy</a>` (looking forward to seeing how iOS slack messes THAT up…)
[echo] ↩️ we typically use the NPF format, you can read about it here https://www.tumblr.com/docs/npf
[KevinMarks] I think there's space for a indiewebify.me alike but for tumblr to help theme authors debug
jacky Probably /Tumblr#Integration
Loqi A subdomain typically refers to a domain with one more "name(dot)" component than that which someone actually has registered which is often seen indieweb sites with a family name domain like joel(dot)franusic(dot)com, or often on silos like matt(dot)wordpress(dot)com https://indieweb.org/subdomain
stevestreza Hyped to see whatever is coming out of this as a former Tumblr sweng
[tantek] there you go: https://indieweb.org/Tumblr#IndieWeb_Friendly
[aciccarello] Does wayback respect no-index?
barnaby here’s their statement on robots.txt https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Robots.txt
@sheldon_hull ↩️ I barely get comments on my blog. A few have been just like that. "Please tell me how to implement infra as code in AWS" or something feeling so unspecific like doing homework or something on it.
You could disable comments and use webmentions to leverage Twitter discussion (twitter.com/_/status/1529966407932338191)