#dev 2022-11-21
2022-11-21 UTC
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[schmarty] heh i was starting on a mechanism for my micropub endpoint to stop myself accidentally making multiple likes of the same URLs. turns out i had only made 11 dupes out of ~1250 likes over 6 years.
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# [schmarty] so, uh. imaginary itch i guess.
# [schmarty] aaronpk: more than half were clearly double-taps in my micropub client or times i thought my site had issues. only like 3 were actually liked more than a day apart, i think.
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[timothy_chambe] Do folks know what this is referring to?
# [timothy_chambe] https://social.wake.st/@liaizon/109379270930355481
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angelo aaronpk can i get your opinion on https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2022-11-20#t1668977991893700
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aaronpk [timothy_chambe]: https://microblog.pub/ ?
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Loqi [angelo] has anyone implemented a device flow on their indieauth server? https://www.oauth.com/oauth2-servers/device-flow/authorization-request/ starts with what looks like a POST to the auth server's token endpoint. would it be correct to kick off the flow w...
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gRegor [timothy_chambe], https://dev.to maybe?
# Loqi DEV or dev.to is a silo-based community of software developers that uses their platform for discovery, publishing articles and networked learning about programming and development topics https://indieweb.org/dev.to
# gRegor thanks, barnaby. Merging that does seem to resolve https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/109. I wonder if it was the rel-me update that fixed it. I think I had updated that rel-me dep on my test site but it hadn't made it into the last merge/deploy somehow.
# gRegor !mf2 https://webrocker.de/
# aaronpk here's another step by step https://www.oauth.com/playground/device-code.html
# gRegor This works for now, I think because the links on Mastodon are doing JS stuff and not following redirects. Vs just accessing my "profile" page there will redirect to my site, which makes sense: https://indieweb.social/@gregorlove.com@gregorlove.com
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# [snarfed] ok, feeling a bit better about how activities are rendered in the Bridgy Fed UI. eg https://fed.brid.gy/recent , https://fed.brid.gy/user/tantek.com
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[tantek] [snarfed]++ wow! The update to https://fed.brid.gy/user/tantek.com is an amazing "Notifications" equivalent from what Twitter was providing!
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@CodeMonument ↩️ Maybe there's an information gap there. I've never heared of webmentions before, even as long term webdev! I Also had the idea for a Twitter alternative with rss + a commenting system, but thought we must write that ourselves as proprietary extension to rss. (twitter.com/_/status/1594593147652292617)
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[jamietanna] Anyone using Bridgy Fed able to find a way to view private content in the browser/social reader? I've had a ping from someone who's private, fortunately I have the full post content through the Bridgy Fed feed, but no other means to view it, and although I'm gonna try replying to it later, I've no idea if that would work 🤔
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# IWDiscordRelay <capjamesg#4492> https://xkcd.com/2700/
# Loqi [XKCD] Account Problems https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/account_problems_2x.png
# [snarfed] ^ isn't that wrong? https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-mention
# [jamietanna] I'm glad to have got it cause its handy to know, just harder to reply / read it 😂
# [jamietanna] Gotcha
# [snarfed] [tantek] re BF's recent activities (aka notifications) and harrassment...hmm. maybe? is it different from normal Bridgy's recent activities UI, eg https://brid.gy/twitter/t ?
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[fluffy] @capjamesg There’s a turnkey conference social network thing that a lot of the conferences use, including GDC. One fun thing is that they sort the public name list in ASCII order, and it’s quite possible to inject a NUL at the beginning of your public name. I had to engage in Shenanigans to actually enter it in because it’s only accessible by a native iOS/Android app but they don’t actually validate their input, and copy-past
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@danhannigan Got webmentions pulling into my personal site, have yet to build that out on the front end, but they're in there. Neat!
If you're unfamiliar with webmentions check out: https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1594730227061690368)
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# [tantek] snarfed, I think you’re right, they’re similar in that regard, except BF also adds follows which feels a bit more exposed. content interactions are one thing, expression of connections between people is another. of course Twitter itself makes people’s followers/followings "public" so someone could be directly polling those too.
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Seirdy yes but the whole model of blocking is very different. fedi instances curate blocklists to create a specific type of community. anti-capitalist instances define themselves by blocking corporate-friendly instances or instances with cops. queer instances block instances that fail to moderate queermisia. it sends a strong signal that "this is what the instance is about, and these are the people
# [schmarty] this discussion is reminding me of this post from today: https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/11/21/a-quick-hypothetical-situation-or-your-crash-introduction-to-the-real-world/
# [schmarty] offloading all the soul-eating toxicity onto a few people is a great way to burn out (or, as laid out in that article, legally entangle) those few people.
# Seirdy (this is why people often get angry when people complain about fedi moderation creating "snowflakes who can't be offended"; the people making those complaints often haven't experienced getting doxxed, dogpiled, email-flooding, mass-gaslighting, and copypastas designed to trigger specific individuals)
# [schmarty] i just want to push back on the phrasing "the right move". i don't think it's actually sustainable at all. and a lack of alternatives doesn't excuse that.
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# [tantek] Mastodon << Warning: if you’re considering running an instance, beware of the concerns/hazards documented in: 2022-11-21 [https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/11/21/a-quick-hypothetical-situation-or-your-crash-introduction-to-the-real-world/ A quick hypothetical situation, or, your crash introduction to the real world] / <blockquote>When you are running a Mastodon server, you are the public policy team, and you are the legal team. Whether you
# Loqi ok, I added "Warning: if you’re considering running an instance, beware of the concerns/hazards documented in: 2022-11-21 [https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/11/21/a-quick-hypothetical-situation-or-your-crash-introduction-to-the-real-world/ A quick hypothetical situation, or, your crash introduction to the real world] / <blockquote>When you are running a Mastodon server, you are the public policy team, and you are the legal team. Whether you" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84531&oldid=84526
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# [schmarty] ehehe this quote from that 11/18 akkoma dev log: "the curse of activitypub can be spread to more people instead of remaining esoteric knowledge"
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@PuercoPop ↩️ indieweb's webmention https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1594752945773580288)
# [tantek] [snarfed], open to h-feed / h-entry markup for https://fed.brid.gy/user/tantek.com pages?
# [tantek] looks at https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/blob/main/templates/activities.html to see if there's enough elements / info to put the right class names
# [tantek] ah just seeing https://fed.brid.gy/user/tantek.com/feed which I see already has h-feed got it
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# gRegor [snarfed], how much delay is there on posts showing up on https://fed.brid.gy/user/gregorlove.com/feed? I've followed a handful and one person posted 2 hours ago
# gRegor Tim is an example: https://indieweb.social/@tchambers/109383220637101265
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AramZ-S[m] Ok, this is really cool - https://fediverse.zachleat.com/@zachleat/109383363399071337
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# [snarfed] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#delivery specifies the request body, and mentions one specific case of 405 response, but that's it
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[jacky] so I saw this mentioned and wanted to highlight it https://jacky.wtf/2022/11/awG0
# [jacky] I think I'm going to down the route of tags (like `u-category p-name` realm) to point to a fixed URL describing what kind of content would be mentioned or seen (which I'll prob define on my site and point to a Wikipedia page since that feels more 'stable') so that'd be something one could filter automatically in a /reader
# Loqi content warning is a feature of a post create UI where an author can hide by default some or all of the primary content of a post due to some concern about the nature of the content https://indieweb.org/cw
# AramZ-S[m] I think that giving content warning its own property is a pretty good idea and might give some semblance of uniformity to a lot of different sites that use different mechanisms to accomplish the same ends
# AramZ-S[m] It also could be used to cover "spoiler warnings" as well, which while perhaps less serious is arguably a content warning and users use content warning tooling to handle spoiler warnings
# AramZ-S[m] Yeah, and a uniform format could empower browser plugin makers to do useful / interesting things with it as well. Like right now CW is basically enabled on Tumblr via browser plugins commonly used across the community. One could imagine a uniform setup would allow a site owner to prefer hiding CW-encased content while a browser plugin user would get a uniform experiance regardless of site owner preference, allowing both users and site
# AramZ-S[m] owners to make the most of a cw feature.
# Loqi content warning is a feature of a post create UI where an author can hide some or all of the primary content of a post due to concerns about negative impacts of the content upon viewers, and typically provide a text warning (eponymously named) with the nature of the concerns, which is initially displayed instead of the post content https://indieweb.org/content_warning
# [snarfed] there's new interest in this in Bridgy/Bridgy Fed too, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/952#issuecomment-1321209446
# AramZ-S[m] Tumblr uses content tags, A lot of bloggers use tags as well while youtube descriptions often have it in text. Mastodon has it's own format that wraps the text I believe? I haven't looked at how it does it.
# sknebel https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/20117 <- the mastodon CW renameing proposal I mentioned earlier
# [tantek] [snarfed] there is this: https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/19
# AramZ-S[m] I'd assume that any incoming tag or hashtag with `#cw` includes a content warning.
# AramZ-S[m] Looking at Mastodon, their format in their account feeds is:
# AramZ-S[m] `<p><strong>Content warning:</strong> Content Warning Description</p><hr />`
# AramZ-S[m] Sucks that it isn't encompasing the warned content in a tag, that would have made more sense to me
# AramZ-S[m] Just inside the RSS feed `description` tag sadly.
# AramZ-S[m] on the site itself Mastodon handles it like this:
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[KevinMarks] the natural HTML for it is <details><summary> CW: description</summary> Content to be hidden</details>
# AramZ-S[m] Yeah, though it is weird b/c the social site post above does encase it in a tag.
# AramZ-S[m] Interesting that instead of an `hr` on the Mastodon UI there's an empty `div`
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# mro how would one add microformats to an atom feed entry to get webmentions to work when there is no html
# [KevinMarks] you can make Atom have xhtml in, like tantek does
# [KevinMarks] we did have one example with an archiving site iirc
# mro [tantek] have a look at https://l.mro.name
# [KevinMarks] not sure that is valid atom - the relative links look wrong
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# mro aaronpk indeed it feels a bit odd to add semantics that's already there.
# mro posting atom has the benefit of being the raw data as TimBl once advocated for. The content can be immutable while the look (incl the rendered markup) may see redesigns.
# mro alas, it seems so in terms of webmentions.
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# mro and I find the idea neat in practice :-)
# mro how would I subscribe with a feedreader?
# [jacky] https://sele.jalcine.dev/dashboard a sample of the dashboard (pinging [schmarty] for feedback b/c I added some of your thoughts)
# [KevinMarks] either find one that supports h-feed or use granary.io to mung it to Atom
# mro so there is a separate feed? Not my idea of dry.
# mro lol
# mro what about the toolchain – static files or server code on read?
# mro fair enough – the browser is what renders the atom+xslt as well.
# mro it's already there.
# mro the conversioon is in the browser.
# mro but we're wandering. I was courious about webmentions on the first place.
# mro no, just <entry> (also valid atom documents)
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barnaby well https://l.mro.name/o/p/ is definitely the prettiest ATOM feed I’ve ever seen
# mro well living standards and active communities make me think of activitypub and I get the shudders.
# mro barnaby thanks a lot!
# gRegor Some more context on Atom feed mf2 parsing: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/78 php-mf2 can handle it, but won't pass non-HTML documents to the parser
# mro btw, there is a https://demo.mro.name/shaarligo to play with and break.
# Loqi [mro] #78 false negative testing https://try.gogs.io/issue-5008
# mro indeed.
# mro machines may digest directly, people rather would read rendered html.
# mro frankly I didn't bother about vcards or events in the feed.
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# mro uh, right, sounds like link relations.
# mro no support so far. It's like the proverbial first fax machine.
# [KevinMarks] You can do AS1 stuff with Atom, which granary does but it is less rich than h-feed
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AS1" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "AS1 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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@tplooker ↩️ It pays to note, while the framing of this proposal may be unique, the concept is not. OpenID federation has automatic registration and IndieAuth has documented a similar mechanism. Also if you look hard enough similar thinking can be traced back to OpenID 2 and SAML. (twitter.com/_/status/1594824657727000577)
# mro as1 is interesting, unearthed it shortly ago: https://l.mro.name/o/p/ahtgcef/
# [KevinMarks] They're entry scoped and feed scoped, depending
# [KevinMarks] The reason we went with the json form of AS1 was because parsing atom in client js was bad, and the gdata json wrapper for atom was worse
# [KevinMarks] mro's atom above has examples
# mro who's DW?
# mro oh, git ot, DAve.
# mro hngrr, got it.
# [KevinMarks] The gdata json vs useful json battle inside Google was how I ended up in dev rel, as I had upset too many people in eng by pointing out the nonsense
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gdata" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "gdata is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# mro lol
# mro lots of pages of historic events.
# [KevinMarks] Have a look at the json example on this page and weep https://developers.google.com/gdata/docs/json#json
# mro mention json and I weep.
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# [tantek] GData is short for Google Data in the context of Google Data Protocol, a largely defunct "REST-inspired technology for reading, writing, and modifying information on the web" invented by Google. See Also: https://microformats.org/wiki/Google_Data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Data_Protocol and https://developers.google.com/gdata/
# mro ok, midnight here, and I try to follow tanteks rule not to text after midnight :-)
# mro cu!
# [KevinMarks] It meant "the text inside the xml element" (as opposed to the attributes on the element)
# [KevinMarks] On the follow web action thinking
# [KevinMarks] “I've got an itch that I want to scratch when it comes how to follow people across Mastodon instance.
# [KevinMarks] I think we can solve it with custom URL schemes via registerProtocolHandler - but it won't be viable unless we know a user can handle the custom scheme. This post explores some options and a solution that could work.”
# Loqi SubToMe is a button that content publishers can put on their sites which enables users to subscribe to their feed in whatever reader they choose — sort of a universal follow button https://indieweb.org/SubToMe
# barnaby yeah that’s how /indie-config work(ed) iirc
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# [schmarty] jacky++ i like the explanation of ticketing!