#dev 2022-12-23

2022-12-23 UTC
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[tantek] feels like there are different levels of "protected" permissions here
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[tantek] e.g. permission to view your friends-only posts is not the same as permission to see all your follower/followings
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[tantek] this is an advantage for IndieWeb implementations over Mastodon: https://fedi.simonwillison.net/@simon/109559268498004036 https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/109559727383581560
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[tantek] tl;dr: Mastodon "permalinks" of the same post across different servers show different subsets of replies to the post. no consistency
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[tantek] hmm I wonder if Loqi will expand the CW
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[tantek] Mastodon << Issue: post permalinks of the same post across different servers each show a different subset of the replies to that post, in contrast to IndieWeb examples where there is one canonical post permalink which shows all [[responses]] except those blocked/hidden by the original post author: https://fedi.simonwillison.net/@simon/109559268498004036 https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/109559727383581560
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aaronpk they aren't really "permalinks" as much as your own reader's view of the post
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Loqi ok, I added "Issue: post permalinks of the same post across different servers each show a different subset of the replies to that post, in contrast to IndieWeb examples where there is one canonical post permalink which shows all [[responses]] except those blocked/hidden by the original post author: https://fedi.simonwillison.net/@simon/109559268498004036 https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/109559727383581560" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85298&oldid=85259
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[tantek] aaronpk, while that may be technically true, that's not how they "appear". They appear as permalinks
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aaronpk https://infosec.exchange/@k8em0/109559581709013080
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aaronpk loqi?
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aaronpk ping
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Loqi pong
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aaronpk maybe i need to up the timeout. a lot of mastodon servers seem to be returning data very slowly
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[tantek] ^ that's worth documenting somewhere
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[tantek] Is Twitter going to go under first, or are Mastodon servers going to slow to a crawl first and die a Friendster death?
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aaronpk one thing i find fascinating about this whole mastodon wave is how many people suddenly have way more opinions about the UX and UI of social media apps now
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Seirdy_ <aaronpk> "one thing i find fascinating..." <- everyone was tired of being a virology expert (COVID) and an international relations/modern warfare expert (Ukraine) and decided to become a moderation, labor law, UX, and business expert.
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barnaby 😆
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aaronpk hahaha
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Loqi nice
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[tantek] aaronpk, re: "way more opinions about the UX and UI of social media apps now" well it's good thing we focused on UX first and protocols second in this community then isn't it? And we captured plenty of screenshots of UX variants across silos and IndieWeb projects on the wiki. We have the research & receipts.
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[tantek] There is no "social-media-pedia", indieweb.org is in effect the closest thing.
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[tantek] And we should not shy away from that
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aaronpk good point!
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[eddie] [snarfed] ohh, I misunderstood. And…when I think about it, it does seem … a bit tricky. To automate. But yeah, the idea is for me, similar to aaronpk and [schmarty] following individual users in a channel is preferred to a whole feed of “mastodon”.
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[eddie] Speaking of… I haven’t gotten following Fediverse working since the 4.0 disaster. How are you all who are following users directly in Aperture/Microsub doing that now?
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GWG [eddie]: I haven't, but I don't know where to find people to follow.
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[eddie] Gotcha. I’ve got a Twitter timeline full of people I’m planning on trying to follow as they seem to be transitioning away (at least for now 😂 🤷‍♂️ )
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barnaby [eddie]: are you already familiar with the various tools for finding people’s fediverse accounts based on your twitter info? e.g. https://fedifinder.glitch.me/
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[eddie] I think I saw that awhile ago but then lost it, so thanks! Totally saving that right now
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aaronpk when i follow someone, i tell my website to send the follow request, and my website keeps track of which aperture channel to send that user's posts to. when my website gets the activitypub message from them later, it sends the post to an aperture channel via aperture's micropub api
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[eddie] Ahhh gotcha. Since your website is natively ActivityPub it’s getting all the messages like BridgyFed is. That makes sense
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[eddie] Great approach!
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M0x3b0b[m] I'm still trying to decide exactly how I want to handle syndication and backfeed, given that my blog is roughly equivalent to a single-user ActivityPub instance with Webmention support and the two places I might be inclined to syndicate/backfeed are a floundering silo and an Akkoma instance. Maybe my next article will be me thinking through that.
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M0x3b0b[m] Bedtime for now, though.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> This feels... obvious: https://medium.com/@AnalyticsAtMeta/notifications-why-less-is-more-how-facebook-has-been-increasing-both-user-satisfaction-and-app-9463f7325e7d
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@folfDK RT @4nd3rs@mastodon.social Er der nogen derude som har (gode) erfaringer med at hooke en blog op til Donten, fx med https://webmention.io og https://brid.gy ? https://mastodon.social/@4nd3rs/109562619222055258 (twitter.com/_/status/1606251829372780544)
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@folfDK RT @4nd3rs@mastodon.social Er der nogen derude som har (gode) erfaringer med at hooke en blog op til Donten, fx med https://webmention.io og https://brid.gy ? https://mastodon.social/@4nd3rs/109562619222055258 (twitter.com/_/status/1606251829372780544)
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[jamietanna] [eddie] I had been following folks through Aperture's ability to auto detect feeds, but yeah I think that's now bust with Mastodon 4.0, so instead I'm largely using Bridgy Fed's feed in the meantime, but may look to pipe Mastodon account URLs through Granary and subscribe to those
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[KevinMarks] You can still use the rss feeds, but they're not as rich as the mf2 ones
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[KevinMarks] More on that Simon thread on how AP is not resilient at showing replies https://social.effy.space/@effy/109562717496743467
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@spacebuffer There is a new thing I am testing out called webmentions, it allows you to receive replies on your blog from anywhere including this tweet. if you could just reply to this post with whatever to see if it's working or not? https://www.yusuf.fyi/posts/2022 (twitter.com/_/status/1606288124526546945)
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aaronpk oops, apparently xray was deploying to google cloud via travis-ci.org which shut down in 2021, so it hasn't gotten any updates since then
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aaronpk i don't know if i want to figure out how to deploy to app engine a different way, gonna just move it over to my main server
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aaronpk that'll save me $8/mo anyway
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[tantek] Mastodon << more on the problem of subsets of replies that Simon pointed out and some analysis of what’s going wrong with replies & threads on Mastodon: https://social.effy.space/@effy/109562717496743467
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Loqi ok, I added "more on the problem of subsets of replies that Simon pointed out and some analysis of what’s going wrong with replies & threads on Mastodon: https://social.effy.space/@effy/109562717496743467" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85313&oldid=85301
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aaronpk "Whenever a Mastodon instance receives a reply to a local post, it will forward that reply on to all followers of the local user" <-- oops I definitely am not doing that
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aaronpk that also seems... like it would not scale well
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[tantek] ^ yeah, scaling
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[tantek] Well is that part of AP or not?
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aaronpk i believe so https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#inbox-forwarding
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[manton] I’m not doing that either. I don’t have a concept of followers-only posts, though.
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[eddie] It does look like they thought about scalability with the inclusion of sharedInbox for these as well
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[eddie] It’s not ideal…but I’m not sure how to would prevent ghost replies any other way
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[snarfed]2 Bridgy UX question: it currently searches Mastodon for posts that link to your site to backfeed, like it does with Twitter. Mastodon has no global search, though, so this search is only on your account’s instance, so it will miss most of those posts across the fediverse.
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[snarfed]2 is it worth keeping that on? or should I turn it off to avoid confusion? eg https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1371#issuecomment-1363834391
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Loqi [preview] [spcbfr] Hey thanks for replying so fast, and also for making such a great project! to test if everything was working properly, I made this post on mastodon https://fosstodon.org/@spacebuffer/109562100003582702 that contained a link to one of my posts and ...
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@hiro_y ActivityPubとかWebmentionとかMicropubについて調べてたらこんがらがってきたぞ。 (twitter.com/_/status/1606338244777373697)
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[snarfed]2 Moving here from #microformats... afaik one Mastodon instance's rendering of a post from another instance is still push based, not pull. ie Mastodon's frontend does use JS, but only to talk to its own instance's backend, not other instances
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> That makes sense
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[snarfed]2 so when you're on instance A looking at a post from instance B, you're seeing data that was previously delivered to instance A. It's generally not fetching in realtime from instance B
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[snarfed]2 (there are exceptions, eg search, but they're exceptions afaik)
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[snarfed]2 [schmarty] just FYI your mf2 on responses is a bit funny, eg on https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/what-we-talk-about-when-were-talking-about-webmentions/ . they’re all h-cite p-* (eg p-like), and the p-* classes make them all end up as properties of your main h-entry, which you don’t want
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[schmarty] oooooooooooh, thanks! i'll push those downs.
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[schmarty] oh, hm. looking at the mf2 i think i _do_ want them like that? they're responses to this post.
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[schmarty] i think i am following the example for displaying incoming likes here even: https://indieweb.org/like#receive_and_markup_incoming_likes
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barnaby yep that looks correct afaik. embedded h-cite like-of is for the liked object, but h-cite like is an incoming like
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[snarfed]2 right, which means they should be child items, not properties of the parent post item
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[snarfed]2 and then inside each of them you can have u-like-of, p-rsvp, etc if you want
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[snarfed]2 https://indieweb.org/comments#How_to_markup ?
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gRegor ^ that puts them in properties like `comment`, not the parsed `children`
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[schmarty] yeah i think i am following /comments#How_to_markup ?
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[snarfed]2 the p-like, p-rsvp, p-bookmark, etc classes on their top-level divs are the problem
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aaronpk that looks right to me?
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barnaby unless something changed since the last time I checked, that is the recommended way of embedding response h-cites
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[snarfed]2 check out the parsed mf2, the responses end up as like, bookmark, etc properties of the post itself. https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/what-we-talk-about-when-were-talking-about-webmentions/
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Loqi [preview] [Marty McGuire] What we talk about when we're talking about "Webmentions"
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aaronpk yes that is expected
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barnaby yep, which is intended
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[schmarty] that's true of the examples on /comments#How_to_markup as well
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gRegor That's intended
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[snarfed]2 the post isn’t a multi-like and an rsvp and a multi-bookmark
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gRegor I do that for comments with `u-comment h-cite` https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2022%2F12%2Fhello-again%2F
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[snarfed]2 but that’s what the parsed mf2 ends up as
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aaronpk it's "like" not "like-of"
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Loqi [preview] [gRegor Morrill] Hello again! I recently saw some oddities in my feed reader subscription for your homepage. I visited and figured out it's at /blog now. I updated the subscription and am seeing your posts in Monocle again.
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[snarfed]2 really? so responses should show up as properties of the post, not child items?!
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[snarfed]2 ok if so, but that’s surprising and not generally what I’ve seen in the wild
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gRegor Yeah. For comments specifically, it's for salmention receiving
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aaronpk i mean i don't think there are any consumers of this yet, but that's always how it's been on the wiki
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barnaby it’s much harder to differentiate between an embedded h-cite and a response if they’re just child elements
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[snarfed]2 the wiki has h-cite u-comment, which is somewhat different than this
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aaronpk how so?
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[snarfed]2 i don’t know 😎
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gRegor Just in that it will parse the u- as the value, it's still a nested h-cite
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aaronpk "h-cite u-comment" means it's a nested h-cite in the "comment" property of the h-entry post
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[snarfed]2 the rsvp response here is a good example. the rsvp property here makes this post seem like it’s trying to be an rsvp, but rsvp values are usually just yes, no, etc, but here the value is a composite object
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[snarfed]2 aaronpk is that expected? and eg meetable handles it ok?
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aaronpk the rsvp case is interesting because it is the same property name for both uses. the other ones are distinct
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[snarfed]2 (not to mention that the rsvp composite object’s value property is Marty McGuire, but that’s probably a separate bug 😁)
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aaronpk like vs like-of, comment vs in-reply-to, repost vs respost-of, etc
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[snarfed]2 true
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gRegor what is attendee
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "attendee" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "attendee is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor hm I thought we had a page with examples of marking up attendees
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[schmarty] lol i shouldn't show rsvp mentions on posts that the rsvp isn't in-reply-to 🙈
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gRegor I don't see markup examples but would expect it on https://indieweb.org/rsvps
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[snarfed]2 ok, I guess the two problems in my consuming code are 1) we used to use u-like for likes themselves, before we switched to u-like-of, and my code still has that backcompat
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[snarfed]2 and 2) it interprets an rsvp property as meaning that the post itself is an rsvp, and chokes on a composite object
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gRegor Found it, brainstorming section https://indieweb.org/event#Attending
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gRegor Yeah, seems we should advise against marking up received RSVPs with *-rsvp
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[snarfed]2 yeah
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[snarfed]2 and has it been long enough since the switch to *-of, eg u-like to u-like-of, that we can drop backcompat? sounds like we’re saying yes here?
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[schmarty] do we like `u-attendee h-entry` for that? (from the Attending brainstorming)
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aaronpk u-attendee doesn't make sense if you want to show an rsvp "no"
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aaronpk tbh i completely forgot about the pre "u-like-of" version, I don't think I have any backcompat handling for that anywhere at this point
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gRegor +1 for dropping that backcompat
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gRegor And yeah, not sure we even have published examples of u-attendee. Would only make sense if showing the Yes RSVPs
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gRegor I'm looking through /event indieweb examples and will update /rsvps
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aaronpk i think we didn't have enough of a concrete use case for publishing the RSVPs for me to add any mf2 markup to them on meetable
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gRegor One p-attendee h-cite example so far: https://indieweb.org/rsvps#Sebastiaan_Andeweg
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gRegor [chrisaldrich] FYI I got "Oh no! Known experienced a problem!" on http://stream.boffosocko.com
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gRegor GWG: what's the current microformats usage when the WP plugins display RSVPs?
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[chrisaldrich] thanks gRegor... every couple of months the database fills with cruft from an old glitch... I'll need some time to clean it out...
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[snarfed]2 gRegor looks like u-rsvp h-cite, eg https://snarfed.org/2014-06-16_homebrew-website-club-at-quip#comments
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[snarfed]2 (I think that mf2 is generated dynamically, not stored, but not sure)
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[snarfed]2 …which is amusing since it has the exact same problem https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://snarfed.org/2014-06-16_homebrew-website-club-at-quip
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Loqi [preview] [Ryan Barrett] Homebrew Website Club at Quip
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gRegor Yep! I've found a couple `u-rsvp h-cite` and `p-rsvp h-cite` examples, updating on /rsvps
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gRegor So probably an issue to file on the wp plugin
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gRegor Though what to replace it with, that's an option question. Maybe just fallback to regular comment recommendation, `u-comment h-cite`
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gRegor !tell jamietanna I tried to deduce your earliest displayed RSVP here based on your own RSVP posts, feel free to update if that's not correct! https://indieweb.org/rsvps#Jamie_Tanna
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor Alright, done updating /rsvps for now, including mf2 classes