#dev 2023-01-15

2023-01-15 UTC
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[tantek] interesting, there's quite the variance in what people consider "self hosted/hosting"
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[tantek] what is self-hosting
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Loqi self hosting is the practice of running the software for your personal website on hardware under your own physical control, typically on a server at home, or sometimes refers to only the aspect of running web applications on a server under your control but not necessarily in your home https://indieweb.org/self_hosting
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[tantek] This GH repo seems to imply that even shared web hosting counts as a form of self-hosting: https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted
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[tantek] What do people think?
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Loqi [preview] [awesome-selfhosted] awesome-selfhosted: A list of Free Software network services and web applications which can be hosted on your own servers
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[tantek] physical server in your home? physical server at a colo cage you have a key to? physical server at a colo but in a cage with other servers? virtual server supported by some piece of hardware at a known location? virtual server supported by hardware at an unknown or might be moved without you knowing server? virtual server with no fixed virtual location? (cloud)
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[tantek] what is YunoHost
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Loqi yunohost is an operating system aiming for the simplest administration of a server, and therefore democratize self hosting, while making sure it stays reliable, secure, ethical and lightweight https://indieweb.org/yunohost
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[snarfed] 🙈 https://twitter.com/nelson/status/1614395323744669697
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@nelson Nearly 48 hours now since Twitter API was cut off from many third party clients. No explanation. My pet theory is it's an experiment to see how users react, in preparation for cutting off the API entirely Just a guess. (twitter.com/_/status/1614395323744669697)
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[tantek] whoa
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[snarfed] pure speculation...but still
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[snarfed] [TMichelleMoore] re your BF 502s, 502 means it couldn't fetch an external page that it needed. in this case, looks like you had a typo, your u-follow-of pointed to https://mstdn.socia/@MeidasTouch , i'm guessing you meant .social
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[TMichelleMoore] [snarfed] duh lol
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[TMichelleMoore] [snarfed] I just found out that the follow does not like it when you have a post title set.
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[snarfed] hmm looking at your latest log, I think that's unrelated. https://fed.brid.gy/log?start_time=1673746533&key=https://tmichellemoore.com/blog/follow-of-meidastouch/%20https://mstdn.social/@MeidasTouch&module=
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[snarfed] delivering to the inbox on mstdn.social returned HTTP 401 "Unexpected object type for key https://fed.brid.gy/tmichellemoore.com," I don't know why
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[snarfed] Looks like that error is from a fork of Mastodon, https://glitch-soc.github.io/docs/ , https://framagit.org/tykayn/mastodon
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[snarfed] Ah nm it's in upstream too https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/blob/85890bc80fe622744f838b8f1ebdfa9278cb3d2b/app/services/activitypub/fetch_remote_key_service.rb
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[snarfed] Also 😬 https://9to5google.com/2023/01/14/twitter-third-party-app-intentional-block/
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[tantek] !tell [schmarty] do you display "likes" on your posts? E.g. I tried to "like" https://martymcgui.re/2023/01/14/this-week-in-the-indieweb-audio-edition--january-7th---13th-2023/ and pretty sure my site sent a webmention, and nothing showed. Tried also pasting my like URL https://tantek.com/2023/014/f1 into your form, still nothing shown.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor his site has to rebuild before it shows up
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gRegor which I think he said is when he posts again, or kicks the rebuild process
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gRegor It's there to be pulled in though https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=https://martymcgui.re/2023/01/14/123423/
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[tantek] ah, got it
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[schmarty] Yes all true! I need to rebuild my site for webmentions to show
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[schmarty] I kicked it! I see your like now.
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[tantek] Oh interesting looks like I liked the note announcing the podcast rather than the podcast itself! https://martymcgui.re/2023/01/14/this-week-in-the-indieweb-audio-edition--january-7th---13th-2023/
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[tantek] Which looks like it has an HTML-overescaping bug when listing the mention (see literal "your < 10min"
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[tantek] )
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] based on what happened with Searchtodon and the discussion in Evan's tootpoll (link in #indieweb) it seems like one couldn't really build Technorati (Tooterati?) in today's climate. (also wondering if Searchtodon is an interesting enough experiment to document on the wiki)
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[KevinMarks] Yes, I think there would be an immediate backlash https://toot-lab.reclaim.technology/@djsundog/109690170268514032
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Loqi [preview] [DJ Sundog - from the toot-lab] when I was a kid in the 1970s there was a woman at the school who was a recess monitor, and she carried a yellow plastic ball bat she’d whack across the backs of kids’ legs to get them to stop doing whatever they were doing.when my father found o...
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[tantek] I think *an* answer could be 100% opt-in via IndieAuth sign-in to an Indiesearch engine
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[tantek] (it would only index posts from the domain you IndieAuth'd from)
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[tantek] (plus you could add features to the signed-in dashboard like, no not that post or not that hashtag)
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[tantek] Also: no indexing of reposts (unless both original author and reposter have IndieAuth'd opted in)
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[tantek] Also: no indexing of reply-contexts (unless the in-reply-to URL domain owner has also IndieAuth'd opted-in)
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[tantek] ^ has implications for personal site search as well
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Does Bridgy Twitter still work?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I think it is worth documenting [tantek].
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@tmichellemoore RSVP yes to Decentralized Website Communication with Webmention scheduled for 2023-01-15 1pm EST #IndieWeb, #Webmentions (https://tmichellemoore.com/?p=151993) (twitter.com/_/status/1614621387083186177)
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capjamesg From #indieweb. I like the idea of an opt-in search engine.
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capjamesg With that said, to your original question Zegnat, I'm not sure. It's a very engaging question and I'm curious to hear what others have to say!
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capjamesg I don't consider myself educated enough on how Mastodon works to present an argument either way.
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Zegnat But it seems like we usually operate on the idea that, by having mf2 and sending webmentions, you are opting in to others copying and displaying e.g. your replies. Which sounds fair on first glance?
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Zegnat Then if my Mastodon instance sends a post I wrote to your server because we are federated, what have I opted in to your server doing? Displaying? Showing publicly even though the post is gated on my instance? Both of these things seem to be yeses for how Mastodon currently works. But we are also saying that I have not opted into having the post indexed for search on that instance.
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Zegnat Like I said, I do not really have any answers either. And until I have really thought out my own position on it, I would even be careful to throw out statements that I have not thought through from multiple sides.
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Zegnat Just find it interesting to see what other examples people can come up with of things that are understood to be opted in on versus not :)
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Zegnat (Sorry for the text dump, been thinking about this a lot during the weekend.)
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capjamesg I don't know either :)
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[snarfed] capjamesg yes, Bridgy's Twitter access is still ok. You can always confirm on any Twitter user page, eg https://brid.gy/twitter/schnarfed
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starrwulfe[m] [snarfed]: I got a 400 error with Twitter publishing yesterday and had to manually submit the link. Thought it was related to current events
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[snarfed] starrwulfe what did the error response say? Or the log from your user page?
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starrwulfe[m] Gimme a moment
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starrwulfe[m] Well of course now I can’t find the log for that 400 “unauthorized to publish” error…
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starrwulfe[m] https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1673764642&key=agdicmlkLWd5cmQLEg1QdWJsaXNoZWRQYWdlIj1odHRwczovL3N0YXJyd3VsZmUueHl6L2RheS0xNC1vZi13b3JraW5nLW9uLW15LWluZGlld2ViLXNpdGUvDAsSB1B1Ymxpc2gYgIDYsIqB2wgM&module=default
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starrwulfe[m] I placed the link to the post in preview manually and did it from there and I got this:
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[snarfed] Hmm, that's a log from successfully publishing a tweet last night, ~10:30p ish PT
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[snarfed] Oh sorry, I guess that's what you meant, ok, will look
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [snarfed] is bridgy Twitter broken?
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starrwulfe [snarfed]: found the log on my site:
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starrwulfe { "body": { "error": "forbidden", "error_description": "Publish is not enabled for StarrWulfe (Twitter)" }, "code": 403, "url": "" }
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starrwulfe (it is-- token is there. I'll grab a new one and see if that works now.)
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[snarfed] capjamesg no https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2023-01-15#t1673795782590500
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Why thank you!
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I thought the API was down?
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sknebel capjamesg: they banned third-party clients from the API
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sknebel ("some third-party clients" more precisely)
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[snarfed] yeah seems like mostly just bigger alternative reader apps so far. https://9to5google.com/2023/01/14/twitter-third-party-app-intentional-block/
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capjamesg Ah, I see.
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capjamesg Gotcha!
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[tantek] Saphire, is that your API access was never approved, or was it revoked?
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yousef Maybe a bit borderline, but basically, does webmention.io cache mention content, or fetch from source site when needed (displaying)?
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capjamesg Yes indeed!
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capjamesg webmention.io, and other providers, usually download a page and cache some content.
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[tantek] The parsed bits right?
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capjamesg Yeah.
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capjamesg (i.e. post content, authorship information)
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yousef Oh ok, following up on that, is there a mechanism for editing content such that it changes on the other person's site (e.g. update RSVP)?
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yousef Like sending a second one referencing an earlier one?
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[tantek] Send another webmention, same params
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capjamesg If you resend a webmention, it should update the content. (i.e. if you make a typo, send a mention, and fix the typo, you can send another mention so your fix will appear on the other person's site).
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capjamesg [tantek] beat me to it :D
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yousef Ah gotcha, so the URL is sort of like an ID
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[tantek] I posted about this!
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[tantek] https://tantek.com/2023/009/t2/edit-reply-comment-update
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] Sometimes it’s the little things, like editing a post. Edit a reply, see a comment update on another post. From day 5 (https://tantek.com/2023/005/t3/indieweb-simpler-approach) * Can I edit my post after publishing? Whether a tweet or Instagram p...
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yousef Perfect, thanks!
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yousef Another question (unrelated) if you'll indulge me: is there a way to allow people who don't have a website to engage with the content in a way that "blends in" with the webmention engagement? On the site directly rather than via somewhere the content got syndicated to
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yousef I remember that the IndieWeb events RSVP let me RSVP even without webmentions
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capjamesg You could have a web form that saves responses and shows them in the same section.
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capjamesg (with some kind of spam prevention in place)
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[snarfed] Most big CMSes (WordPress, Drupal, etc) allow that, mixed in with webmentions
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[snarfed] Form-based commenting on blogs is age old 😃
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yousef Oh ok, if you're not using one of those is it up to each website to figure it out? Was hoping there might just be a lib or something I can put in out of the box (or some webmention-y work around like send an "anonymous" webmention from my own site)
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[snarfed] https://commentpara.de/ , https://disqus.com/ , https://utteranc.es/
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yousef Cool, thanks! I think utterances might be what I'm looking for
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yousef Also thanks for the great talk James, was quite informative, and gave me the nudge to finally see about sorting out webmentions on my site :)
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[snarfed] The catch with utterances is that it requires commenters to have github accounts
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[snarfed] unrelated, I stealth shipped Bluesky support in Bridgy Fed yesterday. It now serves pretty much all of the read XRPCs in the app.bsky.* lexicons (https://atproto.com/guides/lexicon , scroll down on the left). It converts from HTML/mf2 on arbitrary sites
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[snarfed] Examples:
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[snarfed] https://fed.brid.gy/xrpc/app.bsky.actor.getProfile?actor=snarfed.org
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[snarfed] https://fed.brid.gy/xrpc/app.bsky.graph.getFollowers?user=snarfed.org
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[snarfed] https://fed.brid.gy/xrpc/app.bsky.feed.getAuthorFeed?author=snarfed.org
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[snarfed] purely plumbing without an end user use case right now. they're gradually nailing down federation though, and planning to launch the bluesky beta soon ish, so it'll be fun to have BF support and federate with it at or near launch
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[tantek] :exploding_head:
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[schmarty] snarfed++ bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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Loqi snarfed has 61 karma in this channel over the last year (105 in all channels)
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[pfefferle] :exploding_head:
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[pfefferle] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 62 karma in this channel over the last year (106 in all channels)
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[pfefferle] The whole DID stuff is way to complex to play around in my spare time ☺
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[pfefferle] You are a beast [snarfed] !
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[tantek] [pfefferle], agreed on both counts!
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Saphire [tantek]: that's "never gotten anything in first place", yeah
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[tantek] ah, sorry to hear that Saphire. I do know that LOTS of folks (including in the US etc.) have had trouble getting *new* approval for Twitter API access over the past few years, even before EM
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Saphire huh
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Saphire Did not expect people in US to also get that issue