#dev 2023-02-05

2023-02-05 UTC
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[tantek] [benatwork]++ welcome to the indiefediverse https://werd.io/2023/follow-this-site-on-the-fediverse — now add yourself: https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed#IndieWeb_Examples
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Loqi [benatwork] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> https://mastodon.social/@qubyte/109809541935471300
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Loqi [preview] [Mark Everitt] One pain in the ass thing about micropub is that there's no way to send photos and content together in a single request *and* include alt text. It can only be done with a multipart request to a media endpoint for the photo and a JSON request to the r...
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[jacky] I thought this was false but it _is_ true it seems
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[jacky] https://indieweb.org/Micropub#Adding_Files even hints at this
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[jacky] I guess tbh https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/#uploading-files hints as a possibility _of_ doing both
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[jacky] actually nvm
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[jacky] it would have to be nested and that feels like more effort
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[tantek] jacky, I thought we defined alt text for images in microformats quite definitively. what issue have you run into that led to "alt text being something that's not fully specified in Microformats for photos" ?
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[jacky] mainly from not being able to find anything on the wiki about that
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[jacky] nor on the repo
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[jacky] (h-entry one, that is)
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gRegor Should be in the parsing spec
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[tantek] hmm that might be an h-entry documentation problem then since mf2 parsing covers it
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gRegor I'm not sure I follow the original post, though. It can be in a multipart/form-data request https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/#request
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gRegor ah, it's the green note under that... I think I get it now.
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[jacky] yeah 😞
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[jacky] the only thing I can think of is doing something like `photo[0][src]` and making that the uploaded data and `photo[0][alt]` to set the title
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[jacky] or `photo[0][value` instead
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[tantek] does the Mastodon API let you send content + photo + alt all in the same one request?
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[tantek] that seems to be the baseline that Mark is comparing things to
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[jacky] no according to https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#form-data-parameters it's the same way
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[jacky] although this form flow _could_ allow for it to happen in one go (which is unexpected but a perk of conneg)
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[tantek] jacky, here is a proposed requirement for u-photo to include alt text, WDYT? https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#u-photo
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[jacky] I wonder if that MUST could be a SHOULD
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[jacky] (unless the MUST is what's allowing to hit that second switch
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[jacky] I think I like this
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gRegor This is just general alt text best practice, right? Doesn't really impact micropub?
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[jacky] from the parsing side yeah
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[jacky] but I do think a story/approach for it from form uploads could be documented
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[jacky] I might try to add this to Koype (I'm _almost_ certain it'd work but I'd have to write a test)
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[tantek] this is a bit stricter than "general alt text best practice"
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[tantek] deliberately so
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[tantek] raising the bar on, if you’re going to use mf2, we're going to require you to be more accessible to consider your usage to be "valid"
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[tantek] I believe it is a socially ethical use of stricter requirements in a spec
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[tantek] and yes the MUST + UNLESS is the key combo there (to avoid just a SHOULD). I could be wrong that there are other situations (other UNLESS possibilities), and am open to suggestions. I figured better to err on the side of being stricter, and loosen it up in response to feedback than vice-versa
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gRegor requirement in which sense? not going to parse u-photo if it doesn't have alt?
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[jacky] or even opting to defaulting to an empty alt value (which would make it easier for consumers to hint at the lack of them and authoring tools to report on it)
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gRegor heh, I'm all mixed up here. jacky is talking micropub, but the microformats stuff seems kind of orthogonal
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gRegor validator.w3.org will already tell you to add alt text. indiewebify.me could do similar, with more specific guidance about the "UNLESS"
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[jacky] yeah and I think I mentioned Microformats b/c the vocab of Micropub objects are defined by that
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gRegor though an empty alt attribute can also be valid and intentional, so don't think it should say anything, or be very careful in the way it's framed at least.
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[jacky] true
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gRegor yeah, the micropub mf2 is photo.value and photo.alt
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gRegor https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/#example-5
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[jacky] yeah but there's no example (or hasn't been one) that allows that to be defined using form bodies
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[jacky] I suggested https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2023-02-05#t1675561961678300
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[jacky] but that implies one's form parser to support nested value
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[jacky] *values
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Loqi [preview] [[jacky]] the only thing I can think of is doing something like `photo[0][src]` and making that the uploaded data and `photo[0][alt]` to set the title
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gRegor Also a spec change :/ An endpoint could handle both, but no clients would follow it yet
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[jacky] yeah another thing
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[jacky] adds this to a list of things to do + experiment with
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gRegor the neverending list, haha
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gRegor I'm actually working on a media endpoint today
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[snarfed] is two requests vs one such a critical showstopper? this is code we're talking about, after all, not UI. it's not like this means end users will suddenly have to do so much more unreasonable work when they want to add alt text. the UI here should be orthogonal to the plumbing
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[jacky] it's not - I can see the QoL improvement for the dev experience (like in the case of doing /backfeed in a single go, restoring from a backup, or doing it over the terminal)
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[snarfed] I guess. still seems relatively minor though
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[jacky] it's def one of those either-or things that (_I think_) could be answered with a lil' experimentation
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[tantek] The difference (from just HTML validation) is that u-photo means it’s content and not just decorative
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[tantek] And yes this would be for mf2 validators to be able to provide stronger advice & guidance
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[tantek] The mf2 parsing spec already handles alt appropriately I believe.
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[schmarty] wait what about mp-photo-alt?
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[jacky] hmmmm via a form field that could work
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[jacky] (I meant like URL encoded form payload)
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[jacky] but that might need special casing
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[schmarty] If the goal is file and alts in one POST, it's a multipart/form-data tho (not URL-encoded)
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[tantek] thinking about footnotes some more and auto-unicoding them and auto-linking them to their expansions and linking those back
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[tantek] I know I've seen on at least a few sites where the expansions have a little return arrow or something to back to the inline instance of the footnote
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[jeremycherfas] ↩️ Yes. Without a back link footnotes are even more distracting.
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@lunamoth 클라이언트 사이드 웹 멘션 트랙백 보다 이게 나을듯. 트랙백 이미 사라진지 오래인것 같긴하네요 Clientside Webmentions https://bit.ly/3HULlT4 (twitter.com/_/status/1622204696864911362)
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[jeremycherfas] Recent discussion of footnotes makes me want to revisit their presentation on my site, in line with the Tufte approach to sidenotes/marginalia. My current block is that I like my sidebar. So thinking, perhaps I need to have a different presentation for the items that have footnotes, which are generally longer than average and which probably don’t need the information in the sidebar to be at the side.
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@StarrWulfe Site rebuild series: Webmentions: https://starrwulfe.xyz/t/4Gt (twitter.com/_/status/1622310044548141060)
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gRegor ross[m], do you mean Micropub requests? There's an extension to specify the slug with `mp-slug=`
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gRegor https://indieweb.org/Micropub-extensions#Slug
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[aciccarello] I like that starrwulfe.xyz explanation of use cases for webmentions. Shows the versatility
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