#dev 2023-03-10

2023-03-10 UTC
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[tantek] you know what I don't like about GitHub compared to MediaWiki, there's no radio-button-pick-two-versions-and-show-diff-from-to UI on a revisions history page like this https://github.com/tantek/cassis/commits/master/cassis.php
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aaronpk hm yeah there is a URL for it
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[tantek] wat
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[tantek] but no UI?
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aaronpk oh here we go https://github.com/tantek/cassis/compare
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[tantek] and why isn't that linked from the history page 😭
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aaronpk lol not ideal https://github.com/tantek/cassis/compare/312d8b99d912ee9aa90ca9966d4db27690982fbc...master#diff-4cf2932f942d9b3a3996fd6fc2f7284836cf44c6388e4c55a81f15e085f60045
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aaronpk um that link doesn't even switch to the files tab?!
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[tantek] yup, found the files tab and now scrolling. wheee
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[tantek] another annoying inconsistency. the history of file only shows dates (which is fine), e.g. https://github.com/tantek/cassis/commits/master/cassis.js
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[tantek] whereas the compare of tags only shows tags. 🙄
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[tantek] I mean, would it be too much to have both show both?
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[tantek] so instead I'm like manually checking to see what date was that tag tagged? and then trying to keep that in mind while looking at the history view
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[tantek] it's not like developers spend much time looking at diffs across files, releases etc. 🙄
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[tantek] oh look, I somehow figured out this problem back when tagging releases and encoded the date into the semver Patch number. of course I left myself clues like that
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GWG Starting my...let's add stuff about Micropub journey. https://github.com/indieweb/Micropub/issues/12
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[tantek] lol there's no "new" or "create" button or link on https://github.com/tantek/cassis/tags
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[tantek] like why would I possibly want to create a new tag when viewing the list of tags? 🙄
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[tantek] of course it's buried in the combo-box drop-down search thingie for creating a *release* in "Choose a tag" as "Find or create a new tag" input box placeholder text
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aaronpk i don't know why it's only under the releases tab
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gRegor They point at a commit so probably easier during the release process
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[tantek] tagged & released: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/tree/v0.3.19425
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[tantek] aaronpk, does that work for your use-case ^
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aaronpk yep there it is! https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis
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[tantek] great, let's see if anything breaks
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[tantek] this has me 🤔 https://github.com/tantek/cassis/network/dependents
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[tantek] why would a CSS reset, or any React project have a dependency on CASSIS?
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[tantek] or am I misreading it?
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[tantek] aaronpk++ thanks for the fixes and the nudge to make a "stable" release, as the code released in that update has been tested for quite some time
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Loqi aaronpk has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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[tantek] time to start pushing more updates from my "live" cassis.js to GitHub for broader usage/feedback
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[tantek] since I made A BUNCH of big changes lately like lots of auto_linking for @-@s, footnotes etc.
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[tantek] (not quite ready to replace Markdown yet, but steps in that direction 🙂 )
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aaronpk hmm, the bluesky app supports "link cards" which then mean the URL doesn't count against your char limit
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aaronpk and filed https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/649
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Loqi [preview] [aaronpk] #649 Support OAuth
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Would sites that support displaying Salmentions nest h-entries into each other!
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> *?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> How does a parser handle this?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Would it give a flat list of h entries or a nested list of them?
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gRegor I wouldn't expect a page sending Salmentions to have multiple h-entries generally. Maybe some nested h-cites for the comments
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gRegor Not sure what "this" you mean in that question, though.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> That doesn’t sound good for my code 😅
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> How should a comments feed be marked up?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Right now my Salmention code is traversing microformats and finding new ones like entries and cites.
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gRegor what is comments
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Loqi Comments are displayed in the context of an original post, and may be a mix of syndicated reply posts from other sites received via Webmention, as well as locally created comments https://indieweb.org/Comments
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gRegor That page has details and some how to markup
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gRegor short answer, `u-comment h-cite`
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> That’s cool.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Great.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> My code can handle that.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> With a minor change.
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gRegor I see /Salmention says this which I don't think is quite right "E.g. incorporate a reply as a nested comment h-entry inside the original’s h-entry"
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Yes.
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Ruxton_ tantek: because it's being confused wiht an old package - https://www.npmjs.com/package/cassis
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I think that’s why I was so h entry focused in the beginning.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> How would I do nested comments?
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gRegor should be "nested comment h-cite" I think
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> u-comment in a u-comment?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> w/ h-cite.
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gRegor That I'm not sure on, don't think there's many (any?) indieweb examples
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[tantek] Ruxton_ wow. My CASSIS was first :P
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GWG I remember a discussion about changing the query functionality of Micropub to return something without authentication.
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[tantek] From #indieweb aaronpk? Why not have that be "just implement indieauth+Micropub+Micropub"?
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[tantek] Micropub+Microsub* lol autocorrect has learned Micropub
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[snarfed] for us, sure. for them, even if they're indieweb friendly, they presumably eventually want an app ecosystem that talks their protocols, not just ours
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[0x3b0b] Conceptually, at least as I understand them so far, I'd expect rendering of salmentions to be akin to the rendering of an Activitypub reply thread, which is the thing where in Microblogpub I have customized my instance (I had intended to contribute this upstream soon) so that if I'm on the permalink of a mid-thread note, the earlier notes in the thread render as u-in-reply-to h-cite instead of u-comment h-cite. The whole thread is
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[0x3b0b] wrapped in one h-entry, but it's all flat within that rather than having the comments nested. Webmention comments are displayed essentially the same way. While it technically displays with each note in the chain a link to which exact other note in the chain it was in reply to, it doesn't render the comment chains as nested; it's all flat.
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[0x3b0b] Also, having looked at that, I think if Microblogpub doesn't already support sending and receiving salmentions, it shouldn't be far off from the capability...but implementing it might be beyond me, because so far I have dug into neither its parsing nor the guts of how it sends mentions and federation.
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aaronpk I'm trying to be more conscious of working within the assumptions other folks are using, and introducing them slowly to the solutions that we've already worked out
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aaronpk Telling someone to implement a whole set of specs doesn't end up working well in practice, unless you already have enough leverage to be the driving force behind people wanting to implement them, which isn't exactly a healthy ecosystem
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[snarfed] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (87 in all channels)
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[snarfed] also they might be perfectly happy to adopt those standards eventually, but they're still early right now, and focusing on their (different) core motivating problems first
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[tantek] aaronpk not sure I agree. Look at the example of how much there was heavy evangelizing to folks to adopt ActivityPub as the one true way and lots of projects have been convinced to do so.
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[tantek] If anything I think we've been too shy or self-conscious to push hard for more IndieWeb standards adoption by folks
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[tantek] (I’m not saying all that AP evangelizing was "healthy" btw, in fact I witnessed plenty that was pushy and bordering on bullying, or even patronizing, especially in reply to the original BlueSky announcements and invitations for ideas)
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[tantek] (Also a counter example we both know about is all the heavy evangelizing of RDF and SoLiD etc that turned people off because it wasn't really real - no real eating their own cooking - but we don't have that problem)
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aaronpk Yeah I don't think ActivityPub is in a healthy state, it's kind of a mess of specs all driven by mainly one implementation now which doesn't even really seem to care about the specs themselves 🤷‍♂️
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[tantek] To take a positive perspective, how possible would it be to extract the key parts from the AP S2S spec that's been implemented by multiple implementations and document it as a practical profile of AP?
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[tantek] At least to provide a baseline
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[0x3b0b] I think there is a strong tendency, at a certain level of organizational complexity that lies somewhere between small independent implementation and big enough that where you lead others will definitely follow, and especially when looking at the question of "what can we support/integrate with that will help us" (and hopefully also our users), at which "here is an official spec to follow and a few big-name implementations that don't
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[0x3b0b] really follow it very well" tends to be more compelling than "here's a bunch of consistent real-world use-cases and yes we've got specs written for some of them." Specs *feel* like stronger foundations than they really are sometimes, and an implementation with a big enough name to make news can be really powerful branding.
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[0x3b0b] But I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir which is probably because I'm up later than I should be
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[KevinMarks] So much for Twitter API https://twitter.com/BlackForestBoi/status/1633983548708253696?s=20
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@BlackForestBoi And for anyone that needs further proof, here from the info PDF i got sent. And this is the "small" package. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq0TSjGXgAEd76w.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1633983548708253696)
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[manton] Not sure I believe that $42k/month Twitter API leak. That is wildly different than Elon’s suggested $100/month. Maybe $42k is the “small” enterprise plan.
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/BlackForestBoi/status/1634166418814935042?s=20
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@BlackForestBoi @IgorBrigadir Nope, the rep said no. The only things that will stay in the $100 basic tier is some limited write access. If you look at this slide, v1.1/2 are migrated into that enterprise plan. https://twitter.com/BlackForestBoi/status/1633983548708253696 (twitter.com/_/status/1634166418814935042)
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[snarfed] Hoo boy, ok then
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[snarfed] https://www.platformer.news/p/meta-is-building-a-decentralized 🤔
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[snarfed] "The app is codenamed P92 and will allow users to log in through their existing Instagram credentials...The P92 app will support ActivityPub, MoneyControl reported"
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[KevinMarks] This time we get to block their api access? http://epeus.blogspot.com/2010/09/welcome-apple-seriously.html
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aaronpk Very possible to document the subset (and superset) of ActivityPub that is currently interoperable, the problem is you'll quickly end up making a bunch of people mad who say no don't limit AP to just social networking (see current discussion on the mailing list)
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[KevinMarks] Right, it's more like a new version of OStatus, where you list the protocol subsets you use for each bit.
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[KevinMarks] We kind of need SocialWhatWG to document the actual protocols that are in use, including all the fudges in practice, so that we can then iterate on that. What we don't need is even more cruft added to the spec like Rights Expression Languages or NNTP compatibility
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[pfefferle] I think there already was such a spec (ActivityPub) I will see in my bookmarks if I find it
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[pfefferle] Ah, found it: https://litepub.social/
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[pfefferle] > LitePub is a suite of protocols which provide a federated social network. They constitute various profiles of the ActivityPub specification. It is intended that LitePub implementations provide compatibility with ActivityPub, but there are some core behavioral differences.
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aaronpk Didn't that fizzle out?
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[pfefferle] translates "Didn't that fizzle out"
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aaronpk oh heh
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aaronpk like slowly disappear
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[pfefferle] ah, ok
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[pfefferle] pleroma seems to still reference it https://docs-develop.pleroma.social/backend/development/ap_extensions/
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[pfefferle] last change was 2020-11-25
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[KevinMarks] I think that was part of the pleroma schism before the lead dev picked a fight with everyone and flounced
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[pfefferle] translates "flounced"
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[pfefferle] ah, I see
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Gorro_Rojo[m] Hi! Not sure if this belongs here or in #indieweb. Is there any info on making a static blog hookup easily accessible through mastodon/activitypub? couldn't find such info on the indieweb wiki, but I might've looked wrong
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[snarfed] Gorro_Rojo https://fed.brid.gy/ ?
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Gorro_Rojo[m] aaa perfect! thank you [snarfed] !
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aaronpk Gorro_Rojo[m]: also curious where you looked so we can make sure to make that more discoverable on the wiki!
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Gorro_Rojo[m] ah! I see it was further down on the actpub page https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub#Bridging, completely missed the small although adequate mention
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[tantek] Yeah that needs to higher up in an explicit How To section of its own. Thanks for the heads up Gorro_Rojo[m]
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[snarfed] aaronpk you mentioned the AP mailing list. how do you think the community there compares to eg https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ ?
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aaronpk socialcg mailing list
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aaronpk the one that was recently turned back on
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[snarfed] ah ok. I assume it's more standards-body-oriented, vs the discourse ^ which is broader?
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[jacky] squints in semi-interest
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[tantek] the socialcg mailing list is IMO a social experiment, disconnected from any actual implementation impact. read it like an anthropologist might.
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[tantek] I mean I could just say "mailing list" there in general. It's 2023 folks.
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[tantek] [snarfed] you didn't ask me but IMO that socialhub has actual implementation impacts, per some of the replies to my most recent post (which I realize was a while ago now)
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[tantek] https://social.coop/@smallcircles/109907337414024293
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[tantek] aside: codeberg makes me think of [benatwork]'s /Fatberg
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[benatwork] aka the most productive time I've ever spent in a standards meeting
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[tantek] standards *workshop* let's be clear 🙂
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[tantek] what was osfw3c
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Loqi #osfw3c is a hashtag for the W3C Workshop on Social Standards: The Future of Business that took place 2013-08-07..08 in San Francisco, CA, USA, which led directly to the creation of the W3C Social Web Working Group where several IndieWeb specifications were standardized https://indieweb.org/osfw3c
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[benatwork] I workshopped that website real good
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[tantek] [benatwork] for the 10 year anniversary of that workshop I want to make a list of everything proposed/announced/demo'd and put it into two columns: alive and dead
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[benatwork] that would be fascinating
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[benatwork] and wow, that anniversary is fast approaching
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[tantek] I am in the middle of a "2013 was a big year for the indieweb" post
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[tantek] (mostly dev-oriented)
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GWG aaronpk: What was the original thought on 'official' Micropub extensions and is that thought documented anywhere to your recollection?
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aaronpk not sure what you mean
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GWG aaronpk: https://indieweb.org/Micropub-extensions#Official_Extensions
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GWG It doesn't say anything about what makes it
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GWG Basically it is for my pop-up proposal
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aaronpk I don't remember anything specific, but I would say it should be the next higher bar than a stable extension. maybe a higher number of implementations, or has to have been stable for some amount of time
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GWG aaronpk: Okay...makes it a good pop-up discussion topic
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GWG That and.. should anything enter the living spec or just stay as an extension
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capjamesg https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/24066
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capjamesg I'd encourage everyone to add to that proposal if you have more to say!
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Loqi [preview] [capjamesg] #24066 Add support for IndieAuth authentication
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[snarfed] hey [keithjgrant], I was hoping to try out Omnibear in Firefox, but it's evidently not in AMO any more? the Firefox link on https://omnibear.com/ 404s, but I haven't found any explanation anywhere. mind if I ask what happened? was that deliberate?
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[snarfed] aha https://github.com/keithjgrant/omnibear/issues/92
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[keithjgrant] [snarfed] I should probably find somewhere reasonable to post the status of Omnibear, but here’s the gist:
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[keithjgrant] When I did one of the last builds for Omnibear, I apparently did it from an old work computer that built NPM packages from a local mirror of NPM internal to the company network. This meant that references to packages in package-lock.json pointed at mirror urls instead of the publicly-accessible npm.org urls.
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[keithjgrant] Firefox came back *years* after I published the package, and in some sort of routine review of the package, they were unable to build it from the source code because of the package-lock, and they pulled it from their add-ons.
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[keithjgrant] I tried to dust things off and rebuild several months ago, and found a) the JS tooling was really old and in sore need of updating and b) Chrome is soon (or now has?) made the switch to the newer Web Extensions Manifest V3 standard exclusively, which means if Omnibear still works in Chrome, it won’t for long.
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[keithjgrant] I put a good number of hours into updating the tooling and trying to convert to Manifest V3, but it was a much bigger time sink than I was prepared for and didn’t quite get there. I’m now in the middle of my book contract (CSS in Depth, 2nd edition) so I don’t think I’ll have a lot of time to give to finishing this for a while yet.
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[keithjgrant] If any JS devs are interested in helping take ownership of Omnibear, I’d love it. I’m bummed it’s in the state it is now.
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[snarfed] [keithjgrant] thanks for the explanation! I can definitely commiserate, esp w/manifest v3. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1090
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Loqi [preview] [snarfed] #1090 Port browser extension to manifest v3
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[snarfed] in the short term, consider updating the web site and docs repo to say explicitly that it's no longer in AMO?
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[tantek] [keithjgrant]++ really appreciate all the work put into OmniBear and good luck with your book!
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Loqi [keithjgrant] has 2 karma over the last year
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[snarfed] keithjgrant++ agreed!
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Loqi keithjgrant has 3 karma over the last year
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[keithjgrant] [snarfed] Yeah that’s a good idea
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[keithjgrant] [tantek] thanks!
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[manton] I’ve got photo upload working with the Bluesky API now. Kind of convoluted… I will write it up if it helps anyone. You basically upload a blog first, then add the cid for the image when creating a new post.
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[manton] Er… Upload a _blob_ first.
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[snarfed] [manton]++ nice!
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Loqi [manton] has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (37 in all channels)
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aaronpk sounds like same pattern as micropub media endpoint?
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[manton] A lot of it was trial and error. There are some file size limits too. When attaching an image, the error message said the max size is only about 900k.
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[manton] [aaronpk] Yes, that part is fine. The part I found confusing was just constructing the JSON to attach the image.
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aaronpk fwiw i found the tests on their repo more helpful than their docs
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aaronpk https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/tree/main/packages/pds/tests
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[manton] It looks like this: https://gist.github.com/manton/ff841b41487eaec611b16f835a07d4c5
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[manton] Oh nice, that would be useful.
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aaronpk this was my next thing to implement https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/blob/main/packages/pds/tests/crud.test.ts#L166
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aaronpk lol that's quite a mouthful
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[manton] Oh jeez, that would’ve saved me about an hour of trial and error. Whoops.
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[manton] Also doesn’t appear you can have more than 1 active session. So I kept having to sign in again to get a new token on my computer and then sign in again on iOS, back and forth. 🙂
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aaronpk oh really
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aaronpk that would explain why i had to log in again yesterday haha
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aaronpk that's a very strange limitation
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[manton] They’ll have to fix that for a broader rollout with potentially multiple apps on different devices. Hopefully it won’t be a server db change to store more than one token. 🙂
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[manton] I’m torn on how much more to do for now. I’m having fun with it, and I prototyped basic cross-posting from Micro.blog to Bluesky. But some of the limits make me want to pause for now, at least until the more public access. Maybe OAuth will be ready then too. (I implemented a username/password prompt, then I get a token and never save the password, but I hate even asking for the password.)
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[manton] I’m sure a lot of this hasn’t been completely nailed down yet.
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[tantek] bluesky is a specific instance to think about how to approach a couple of new kinds of things in general from an IndieWeb perspective
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[tantek] when someone comes out with a new social and/or decentralized protocol *with* an implementation, what are good ways to determine the IndieWeb relevance/opportunities, and what things are worth pursuing? e.g. direct bridging/proxying, POSSE/PESOS/backfeed support, etc.
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angelo crazy i instantly recognized the hill behind those goats
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[tantek] when someone comes out with a new social and/or decentralized *client,* especially if it looks "usable" on mobile devices, what are good ways to determine the IndieWeb relevance/opportunities, and what things are worth pursuing? e.g. IndieAuth, Micropub, Microsub support etc.
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[tantek] ^ I think these are worth explicit conversations so we come up with well thought through ways to do outreach to interop / connect with new efforts
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angelo oops, sorry that was meant for -chat
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[manton] [tantek] Definitely. So much is happening right now with new protocols, it’s the right time to think about how the IndieWeb fits into everything. I like that Bluesky prioritizes domain names and portability. I don’t love the API, but I’m good with POSSE for now just to dip my toe into the water.
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[manton] In the Mastodon world, too, I’d love to see movement away from the Mastodon API to more open protocols like Micropub. Having a bunch of apps that _only_ work with Mastodon is not great, even if the larger fediverse + ActivityPub is more open.
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[tantek] agreed [manton]. I tried to recognize that positive step from BlueSky here: https://indieweb.org/bluesky#IndieWeb_Features
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[tantek] We need to have an easier to explain "pitch" to client developers for why/how they should adopt IndieAuth, Micropub, Microsub (in that order)?
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[tantek] None of the specs provide that "here's why and how" clear explanation right now. The specs (and wiki pages) are good references if you're already convinced but they don't provide a clear and simple 1, 2, 3 steps to adoption and what you get with each step
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[tantek] We need a wiki page equivalent of something like aaronpk's IndieWeb sessions where he coded a Micropub client from scratch in mere minutes
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[tantek] If more Mastodon app developers saw that they could add Micropub support in an afternoon, I bet many would do so
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[snarfed] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (80 in all channels)
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