#dev 2023-03-22

2023-03-22 UTC
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[tantek] I think I got auto-linked hashtags working on my permalinks (2023 and onward, per choice of tag space)
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[tantek] well I tried re-BridgyFedding my first post from this year: https://tantek.com/2023/001/t1/own-your-notes which has linked hashtags but looks like the hahstag links didn't make into Mastodon, e.g. https://xoxo.zone/@tantek.com@tantek.com/109618473374791108
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] I am once again asking you to own your notes, rather than tweeting them into Big Chad’s garage. Maybe you left the big garage and now toot in your neighborhood Chad’s garage. It’s still someone else’s garage. https://xkcd.com/1150 #IndieWeb ...
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[tantek] looks like BridgyFed is putting the hashtags into the JSON, but with a # added to the p-category in the name of the hashtag, I wonder if that's why Mastodon is not finding the links? Though if so, why are the links getting stripped in Mastodon? https://fed.brid.gy/log?start_time=1679448262&key=https://tantek.com/2023/001/t1/own-your-notes&module=
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[tantek] [snarfed] ^ should that update be working? or do I need to write a new post to test it?
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[tantek] it's not just that Mastodon is not linking my hashtags (or preserving my links on them), it's also not showing up in the hashtag collection at all: https://xoxo.zone/tags/100DaysOfIndieWeb (when I scroll back to January 1st to see if that post made it in)
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[snarfed] [tantek] interesting, we've only tested Creates so far, not Updates. I wonder if Mastodon Updates don't update hashtags
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[snarfed] (the leading # on the AS2 tag values is required)
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[snarfed] my only other guess is that maybe the # needs to be inside the HTML link text after all. I originally thought that in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/45#issuecomment-1468856026, but then said otherwise in the docs. I think I tested successfully without # in link text, but not sure
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gRegor The one post that worked for me so far had # in the link text
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[snarfed] yeah I think I got the docs wrong. the leading # is optional inside the p-category, but required inside the link. [tantek] mind retrying with # inside your <a>s?
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[snarfed] you can move your p-category to a separate span inside the a that excludes the # if you want
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gRegor [snarfed], [tantek] that worked, confirmed with a new post https://gregorlove.com/2023/03/wawg-distribution-2/
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[tantek] Thanks [snarfed] gRegor. I just verified that on xoxo.zone your post (gRegor) has the local hashtag link and kept the span inside with p-category!
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[tantek] I'm kinda amazed that works in Mastodon but so be it
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gRegor oh wow, didn't realize it kept the span
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[tantek] goes to update his auto_tag function
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[snarfed] the Update part is still untested :crossed_fingers:
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gRegor My earlier example was a bit odd on the markup. Usually tags appear in the footer of the post and have p-category there. With all the Masto tests, ended up also adding a link around the hashtag in the content too.
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gRegor [snarfed], Aside and not that important, but any idea how Masto instances get post counts? xoxo.zone says 7 but there's definitely more than that when I scroll through
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[tantek] updated auto_tag function appears to be visually working, let's see what re-BridgyFeding does
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[tantek] hmm sent the webmention with mention.tech but not in the dashboard yet
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[snarfed] interesting, https://xoxo.zone/@tantek.com@tantek.com (not logged in) shows me post count 0
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[tantek] yeah that's because I did a migration from that account to my personal site @-@
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[tantek] [snarfed] BridgyFed doesn't seem to be acknowledging an update if there’s only markup changes
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[tantek] tried sending two webmentions for that same post, and nothing in the dashboard
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[snarfed] only the second one arrived. it's processing
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[tantek] I see it in the dashboard now. curious
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[tantek] well that didn't seem to work either
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[tantek] no update to https://xoxo.zone/@tantek.com@tantek.com/109618473374791108 for example
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Loqi [preview] I am once again asking you to own your notes, rather than tweeting them into Big Chad’s garage. Maybe you left the big garage and now too...
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[snarfed] Hrm. Sorry! I'll debug
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gRegor Huh. The first one I got working was an update
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[tantek] my markup: <a href="https://indieweb.social/tags/IndieWeb" class="auto-link-hashtag">#<span class="p-category auto-tag">IndieWeb</span></a>
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[tantek] gRegor's markup: <a href="https://gregorlove.com/#MutualAid">#<span class="p-category">MutualAid</span></a>
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gRegor Log of my first working one: https://fed.brid.gy/log?start_time=1678831850&key=https://gregorlove.com/2023/02/covid-transmission-is-still-high/&module=
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[tantek] odd, there's no AS2 in that log entry
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[tantek] what's curious is that the AS2 for my post seems to have the hashtags in it: https://fed.brid.gy/log?start_time=1679456377&key=https://tantek.com/2023/001/t1/own-your-notes&module= however it's still not showing up in a list of hashtagged posts on an instance https://xoxo.zone/tags/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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[tantek] gRegor's post does show up though on that same instance: https://xoxo.zone/tags/MutualAid
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[snarfed] Log entries on big inbox deliveries like yours are unreliable, they get overwhelmed
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[snarfed] And yeah again I suspect Update vs Create
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[snarfed] But only a suspicion
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[tantek] ok let me think about something new IndieWeb to post about
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[tantek] do you think the extra class names in my markup could be interfering?
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[tantek] in particular the class attribute on the a href?
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[snarfed] nah, I doubt that
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[snarfed] [tantek] yup looks like Update was the problem. I tried posting the AS2 from your Update as a new Create, and the hashtags worked: https://indieweb.social/@snarfed.org@snarfed.org/110065135284427867
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[snarfed] I'm actually now curious if keeping the #s outside the <a>s does work after all, in a Create
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[tantek] interesting
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[snarfed] Confirmed, Create with # outside <a> works fine
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I'm going to add a live audio feature to my website.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The question is how to do call in with this 😛
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Probably Zoom -> OBS?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I'm also going to open source the code for James Bot.
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@mikevdev ↩️ Some of it's tests are a little shoddy but it is being used over on http://mikevdv.dev https://github.com/vandie/webmention-handler (twitter.com/_/status/1638493897994248192)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> https://mozilla.ai/
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> This is an interesting idea: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35260065
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Loqi [preview] [juliushuijnk] Cool. I would like them to aim for a future where you can fully own your AI, so it can be your personal coach. Perhaps a 'general engine' can be swapped out and hosted somewhere, but then your personal information and your conversations on your devic...
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The last comment on RSS is the IndieWeb relevance.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I'd need to play around with this myself to see if it yields interesting insights.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I could see a TL;DR generator for RSS feeds.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> tldrfeed.dev/?url=xyz would generate a summary for all of the content in an RSS feed.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> (Making up that domain. This doesn't exist.)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> What standards exist for authorship verification?
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sknebel What do you mean by that exactly?
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sknebel (i.e. what do you want to verify exactly?)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I'm thinking about this the wrong way. Disregard.
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[tantek] I need to document this somewhere on the wiki: https://tantek.com/2023/018/t1/elevate-indieweb-above-silo
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] The answer to “How should you @-mention someone you are replying to?”¹ can depend on many factors or a few. Context matters somewhat, sometimes. We can simplify it to 2 questions, based on 1 directive: * Elevate #IndieWeb domains, above any si...
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[tantek] what is a person mentino
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "person mentino" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "person mentino is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] person mentino is /person_mention
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] [snarfed] check it out! On servers that received my (old) post for the first time, they indexed the hashtags and linked them! Note the second post here is my first post of the year! https://mozilla.social/tags/indieweb
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[tantek] so now I'm going to go back and refederate all my posts since to get them in there
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[tantek] no Update doesn't work that's my point
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[snarfed] Nice! And wait, so Update does work after all?
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[snarfed] I wonder why it didn't at first
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[snarfed] Oh I see, right
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[tantek] it's only servers who have never seen my old posts before that are indexing and linking the hashtags
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[tantek] and now that our CPO announced Mozilla's mozilla.social experiment this morning at MozFest (see my latest post), I'm backfilling its cache of my posts 🙂
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[tantek] seems like a Mastodon bug though
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[tantek] Updates received by Mastodon are displaying updated text but are not reparsing/reindexing/relinking hashtags
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[tantek] I wonder how other software recipients are handling updates
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[snarfed] Odd though, [gRegorLove] had an Update work a while back. https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2023-03-22#t1679456455546500
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Loqi [preview] [gRegor] Huh. The first one I got working was an update
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[tantek] hmm, I wonder if the server he tested it with had not previously seen that post though?
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[tantek] like what I'm experiencing with my old posts now "working" on mozilla.social
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[snarfed] Maybe! I can look
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[tantek] right, you have more insight into the BridgyFed logs as to how each server "accepted" each post as "new" or as an "update" right?
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gRegor I tested my update on xoxo.zone and it had seen the post before
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gRegor I usually test with that instance because [Joe_Crawford] was one of my first followers and he's on that instance
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gRegor So it should have most of my posts
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[tantek] so that's odd then
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[tantek] why are your updates working but mine not
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[tantek] [snarfed] should I rate limit my refed pings to BF? Or should I stress test it?
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[tantek] (I stopped at 5 and realized I should ask 🙂 )
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gRegor Yeah, it is odd, not sure. Unfortunately I don't have other old posts with hashtags in the content to re-try.
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[tantek] also confirmed, BF dashboard display of reposts are working again! 🎉
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[tantek] gRegor, what? you don't hashtag all your posts?!? 😉
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[snarfed] 🎉
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[snarfed] No rate limiting needed, feel free to slam it
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gRegor lol
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[tantek] Leeroy Jenkins!
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gRegor You mean #LeeroyJenkins? :)
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[tantek] [snarfed] I may have spoken too soon, so far NONE of my other posts (besides my oldest and my newest) have made it into https://mozilla.social/tags/100DaysofIndieWeb
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[tantek] which makes me wonder if one of my *prior* markup iterations on the linked hashtags is what worked for that first post, and subsequently I messed it up 😕
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gRegor [tantek], We did find instances where a p-category on my post that was not in the post content (and was never linked) made the post show up in tag search. So the AS2 that BF was sending seemed to work for post indexing. See my post in https://indieweb.social/tags/keepmasksinhealthcareca (note the "ca" at the end, different tag than in the content)
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gRegor That's the post my update worked on
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[tantek] In this case the p-category is not getting indexed, that's my point
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gRegor Understood, just offering another (confusing, maybe) data point, hah
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gRegor Definitely seems like a Masto bug
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[tantek] yeah I'm confused why one of my old posts made it in but not the others, but then my newest post made it in
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[tantek] what the heck, *one* of my old posts did show up as an update on Indieweb.social *with* the new linked hashtags?!? https://indieweb.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com/109657713340471289
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[tantek] now I'm very confused
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Loqi [preview] 11 years ago today, Ryan Barrett (https://snarfed.org/ @schnarfed) launched Bridgy (https://brid.gy/) to copy #socialmedia replies as commen...
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[snarfed] kinda amusing how out of all the AP etc interop, hashtags have been the most long-running and difficult
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[snarfed] worse than signatures!
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[snarfed] ok, I tested a simple Update just now, and it worked. first Create had plain text (unlinked) #hashtag, AS2 object had no tag field. Update added link to content and AS2 tag field.
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[snarfed] so... 🤷
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[tantek] 😭
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[tantek] maybe depends on the version of software the destination is running?!?
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[snarfed] I've been testing and looking at your posts all on the same instance
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[tantek] another update made it through to XOXO: https://xoxo.zone/@tantek.com@tantek.com/110018943826440897
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[tantek] with hashtag links, and showing up in https://xoxo.zone/tags/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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Loqi [preview] Blog as if there’s an #AI being trained¹ to be you based on your blog posts. And what if it was trained on your Universal Outbox²? #In...
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[tantek] I wonder if there are some long-running low priority processes on Mastodon server that slowly propagate updates throughout their caches like lists of tagged posts 🤔
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[snarfed] Mastodon does process incoming activities in the background, but I think it's just FIFO, not prioritized differently by type
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[snarfed] and I don't think they have cache levels or propagation that sophisticated
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[tantek] no explanation I've heard about why different servers are showing different subsets of my past hashtagged posts
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[snarfed] I wonder if there is some create vs update interaction after all, and the difference is instances where you had followers, so they received the original create, vs instances that only received the update
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[snarfed] I guess arguably this is a BF bug/missing feature, it doesn't track that and correctly send creates vs updates per instance?
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[tantek] that was my first thought, but then why did mozilla.social *only* show my very oldest post from 100daysofindieweb, and say, not my second oldest? (both of which predate the server having folks following anything)
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[snarfed] show? or handle hashtags correctly?
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[tantek] both
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[snarfed] yeah 🤷
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[tantek] maybe I will complain about this in my post about implementing hashtags
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[snarfed] I will also admit, relative to all the other BF priorities, this is not top of the list
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[snarfed] I've been working on a huge rearchitecting to support multiple protocols, ie other than AP, and after that is another huge one to support multiple protocol *users*, so it can bridge any supported protocol to any other, eg AP <=> Bluesky
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[tantek] whoa
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[snarfed] should have seen all this coming and designed it this way from the beginning. I did with Bridgy non-Fed, worked out really well. BF, not so much 🤦‍♂️ ah well
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[tantek] fair. though I will say it seems to make sense to prioritize AP a bit due to usage uptake
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[tantek] and same for Mastodon specific quirks
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[tantek] do you file Mastodon bugs when you run into issues like this?
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[snarfed] definitely. and I had no idea whether it would last or matter back in 2017 or 2018 or whenever when I launched it. so yeah, YAGNI etc, it was reasonable to not over-architect back then
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[snarfed] yup. I would have if Update didn't handle hashtags. haven't filed many Mastodon bugs, but a few
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[snarfed] https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues?q=is%3Aissue+author%3Asnarfed+
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[tantek] it does seem like Update doesn't *reliably* handle hashtags (either indexing or linking)
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[tantek] heh
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[snarfed] yup, maybe so
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[tantek] should we discuss better link-preview editability practices in our own tools & services to help avoid the problem I pointed out in #indieweb?
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[tantek] [snarfed] update the mozilla.social view of the 100daysofindieweb is now showing *three* (up from two earlier) of my posts, though not in any order as far as I can tell 🤷‍♂️ https://mozilla.social/tags/100DaysofIndieWeb
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[tantek] distributed systems are hard
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[snarfed] ah yeah and the search index may be served by elasticsearch on some instances, but not all, so that may reflect updates slower? not sure
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[snarfed] I'd be curious to watch if/when the hashtags in the posts themselves get linkified, viewed from your profile
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[tantek] [snarfed] from my quick check, it looks like the two are the same, per server. i.e. the posts on https://xoxo.zone/@tantek.com@tantek.com that have hyperlinked hashtags are precisely the posts of mine that show up on https://xoxo.zone/tags/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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[snarfed] sure. I was more curious about timing, but still, who knows
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[0x3b0b] Watching all this discussion lately of BF and hashtags and whatnot has been really interesting to me as a microblogpub user.
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[tantek] 0x3b0b what is your experience with hashtags you post showing up or not on Mastodon servers?