#dev 2023-03-23

2023-03-23 UTC
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[0x3b0b] I have only spot-checked from the fe.disroot.org Akkoma instance, where I am logged in, so far. There, I am seeing links that when moused over look like they are going to go to the tag page on my site, but when clicked they go to that tag on Fedisroot (and so far I am not a fan of what the status bar shows on mouseover being an external link and the actual effect of clicking being an internal link, that's just weird - maybe it'll grow
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[0x3b0b] on me).
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[tantek] that is strange behavior indeed!
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[tantek] seems like the federating of hashtags needs its own spec because we are running into so many interop / weirdness problems
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gRegor Proposed as an AS2 extension in 2017 but no action since, unfortunately https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/6
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Loqi [preview] [Gargron] #6 Hashtag representation
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gRegor https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams_extensions#as:Hashtag_type
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[tantek] hashtag << Brainstorming: Needs a spec for how to federate, across any kind of system, regardless of transport (e.g. ActivityPub, Webmention). How should hashtags be detected/discovered by a hosting site (e.g. in a [[reply-context]], [[comments]] display, [[repost]], [[quote]] post, online [[social reader]]), including both in plain text, and hashtag links? When should a receiving site replace the hashtag link in content displayed
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[tantek] from elsewhere with a local-to-the-site hashtag link? See also: https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/6
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Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorming: Needs a spec for how to federate, across any kind of system, regardless of transport (e.g. ActivityPub, Webmention). How should hashtags be detected/discovered by a hosting site (e.g. in a [[reply-context]], [[comments]] display, [[repost]], [[quote]] post, online [[social reader]]), including both in plain text, and hashtag links? When should a receiving site replace the hashtag link in content displayed" to the "See Also" section of /hashtags https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87111&oldid=87098
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Loqi [preview] [Gargron] #6 Hashtag representation
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[tantek] gRegor, sadly, the link to the toot in that issue is since 404 😕
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gRegor I looked it up on IA a while back, didn't have a lot of additional info
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gRegor https://web.archive.org/web/20170716044005/https://mastodon.social/users/Gargron/updates/3288643
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Loqi [preview] [Eugen] @cwebber i had another concern: OStatus URIs of the type tag:example.com;12345;foobar are not represented in ActivityPub, but present in Mastodon. How to avoid duplicates between things Mastodon sees via AP vs what it sees via OStatus?
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gRegor That swicwg github org appears to only have two (public?) members, so maybe that's why there hasn't been much activity.
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[tantek] hashtag << ^ Possibly of some historical interest / background for Mastodon’s hashtag federation implementation: https://web.archive.org/web/20170716044005/https://mastodon.social/users/Gargron/updates/3288643
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Loqi ok, I added "^ Possibly of some historical interest / background for Mastodon’s hashtag federation implementation: https://web.archive.org/web/20170716044005/https://mastodon.social/users/Gargron/updates/3288643" to the "See Also" section of /hashtags https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87113&oldid=87112
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[tantek] hashtag << ^ prior art: INFORMATIONAL (not standard) RFC: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4151 for a "tag:" scheme. Possibly useful for extracting/re-using concept/structure (though likely not overall syntax).
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Loqi ok, I added "^ prior art: INFORMATIONAL (not standard) RFC: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4151 for a "tag:" scheme. Possibly useful for extracting/re-using concept/structure (though likely not overall syntax)." to the "See Also" section of /hashtags https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87114&oldid=87113
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[tantek] [j12t] started a thread to organize a SWICG meeting to discuss iterating on specs, possible WG: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/0124.html - sharing here because for something like this to "succeed" it would need direct participation of more implementers than "architects", especially to get a good read in the room of how many folks are working on implementing which past SocialWG specs
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[tantek] IMO this includes anyone who has implemented any aspect of Webmention, Micropub, ActivityPub, ActivityStreams, and possibly also IndieAuth etc.
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[tantek] further up in the thread (that email was a fork), our own [jacky] chimed in: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/0105.html
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[snarfed] thanks! I'm happy to participate
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[snarfed] sounds like we'd still need someone to drive, ideally someone with standards body experience?
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[snarfed] and ideally it'd still be in the W3C?
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[tantek] raising this to get attention of additional folks here like especially aaronpk [snarfed] [pfefferle] GWG gRegor [schmarty] [manton]
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[tantek] yeah I think the meeting will very quickly identify that there needs to be at least two classes of "drivers": people who raise issues and curate/triage/prioritize them for discussion, and at least a couple of co-chairs to help facilitate those discussions
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[tantek] [snarfed] not sure if W3C would be ideal or not. Last time it (felt like it) took a lot of work to do at W3C, and there were very few actual W3C members participating (it was mostly invited experts) which is unusual for a W3C Working Group
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[snarfed] hmm ok!
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[snarfed] is there an existing way for the W3C to formally "migrate" a standard, so it's clear they're no longer the authoritative body?
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[tantek] if we were to help propose a WG, what do folks here think of using that to get formal updates to both existing Recs at W3C (Webmention, Micropub, Websub) but also get new recommendations for at least IndieAuth and Microsub? (asking to get aaronpk's opinion/pref in particular)
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[snarfed] "export" I guess
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[tantek] [snarfed] thanks to the liberal copyright license, technically "anyone" can pick up and maintain a W3C spec if they want to as long as they cite the origin (W3C, links)
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[tantek] the more important aspect is where does the active implementer community want to do the work
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[snarfed] sure, but that's arguably forking unless the W3C "approves" the new maintainers, right?
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[snarfed] sure
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[tantek] it's only "forking" if W3C decides to *also* iterate on the specs IMO
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[tantek] as long as there is one "line" of work continuing, there's no "fork" conceptually, it's still a single path
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[snarfed] I think that's an overly generous definition, ownership changes matter, but not a big deal
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[tantek] e.g. there have been updates/errata to Webmention, Micropub since the W3C Recommendations
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[snarfed] anyway! I'm out of my depth here, happy to participate as an implementer if someone(s) standards-experienced drives
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[tantek] we've tried to make "ownership" changes of standards matter a lot less yes
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GWG I wouldn't mind talking more about Micropub and Webmention
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[tantek] great GWG, [snarfed]
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[tantek] I think there will be two classes of discussions, just to prepare yourselves
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[tantek] 1 what is the scope, i.e. what specs / use-cases should we discuss or not in whatever "group" that is
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[tantek] 2 what specific issues on those specs do you need discussion with implementers to reach consensus to resolve (and thus propose spec changes, new tests)
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[tantek] GWG, since you already know you want to talk about Micropub and Webmention, one thing you can do in preparation is pick a few of your "most important" issues on each to discuss, and if they don't have GitHub issues, make sure to file them and get some discussion first
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[tantek] that's totally ok and understandable too [schmarty]
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[schmarty] thanks for thinking of me, tantek! I'm intimidated by the idea of specification work outside of this very chill community here. 😅
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[snarfed] for AP/AS2, probably the biggest task would be to get the Mastodon people to participate, since they're the de facto interop standard
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[tantek] I believe such meetings/calls would be more than welcome to "lurker" implementers
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[tantek] [snarfed] agreed
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[tantek] although from what I have seen, when there is developer consensus on fixes / updates or other improvements to ActivityPub, that Mastodon developers seem very amenable to "just" adopting those
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[schmarty] lurking and thinking seem doable. we'll see if i can keep my mouth shut lol 🙊
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[tantek] which is great to see as a "big" implementation
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[snarfed] definitely!
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[tantek] [schmarty] it's ok, usually these kinds of meetings when they get to any kind of size (more than four?) use an explicit queuing system (e.g. "q+" in an IRC channel, likely #social on irc.w3.org which we already log)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [tantek] I could join.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I have implemented almost all of the IndieWeb specs.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> But from the implementor perspective, not standards driving.
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[schmarty] haha, oop, i actually have a work meeting conflict at the time j12t proposed. (2023-03-29 10am US/Pacific).
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GWG [tantek]: I have a pop-up proposal for Micropub with some things.. but will reread in this vein
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GWG Also, bush during those days...new boss coming
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> A Micropub pop up? Exciting.
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[tantek] capjamesg, great!
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[tantek] I'd say step one is for folks to join the Social Web Incubator Group
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[tantek] capjamesg re: "from the implementor perspective, not standards driving", good standards are driven by implementer feedback, what things were awkward, didn't quite work, needed clarification, needed tests etc.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I meant "implementer", not "implementor".
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I didn't realise the word is spelled with an "e".
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[tantek] capjamesg, both are accepted, though with the 'e' appears more canonical per: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/implementor
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Is there a registration system beyond signing in to the meeting in Jitsi?
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[tantek] https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/ <- let's see if you can figure out how to join capjamesg [snarfed] [schmarty]
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[schmarty] warning: mailing list 😭
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[KevinMarks] on the ActivityPub side of things, implementers to counterbalance the 'I want to mash this up with LD vaporware, but won't until it's in the spec' stuff on the ML would be good.
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[KevinMarks] (not arguing on the ML, I mean focussing on interop)
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[tantek] [schmarty] yes I should have put a "CW" on that 😂
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] indeed, we need more practical implementers in the room that are for *subsetting* ActivityPub (e.g. to the S2S bits that are actually interoperably implemented), not bloating it
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[schmarty] i forgot i don't have a W3C account. lol'd at "To reduce processing delays please enter your corporate email address, you may modify it later" - yeah no i am not ready to represent my company in this i don't think.
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[KevinMarks] so propose deprecating C2S?
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[tantek] you can use a personal email. where did you see that copy?
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[schmarty] https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
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[schmarty] using my personal address the following page says "We could not detect your affiliation based on your email address. Please select your affiliation below or go back to use your corporate email address."
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] I would propose that an iteration of AP spec drops C2S and refers to the previous spec for it, or splitting it up in to two specs which can advance/iterate independently if there is someone (an implementer) interested in being a C2S editor
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[schmarty] followed by "You must indicate any significant relationship (e.g., employment, consulting):". i guess for folks to disclose that they have an employer in case that is relevant.
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[tantek] yeah disclosure
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[schmarty] lol my company is in here what
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[tantek] [schmarty] FWIW I use my cs.stanford.edu address with W3C, and always have, across companies
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[tantek] [schmarty] whoa your company is a W3C Member?!?
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[tantek] [schmarty] that means by creating an account with your corporate email domain you should be automatically given W3C Membership privileges including access to all Member-only materials (a lot of things I could share)
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[snarfed] Should I still add my employer if it's unrelated?
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[tantek] e.g. once you create said account with your corp email, you will have access to https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList which will show you who at your company is responsible for your company's overall W3C participation (AC rep)
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[schmarty] i guess i've disclosed this in logged chat before so it's not a secret. i work at Adafruit. we're not listed on the https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List page, but somehow we were in the dropdown.
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[tantek] [snarfed] up to you! if it's web-related, it's a good practice of up front disclosure
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[schmarty] i think the affiliation box just lets you put in whatever you want and my browser autocompleted 😂
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[tantek] [schmarty] odd. Adafruit is not a current member per that list. Maybe a past member?
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[tantek] so in that case, I suggest using your personal email
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[schmarty] haha, cool, well i guess i just broke the affiliation page of the signup form. changed myself to "None" affiliation once I realized the change affiliation page doesn't have an actual adafruit entriy.
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[tantek] btw you can see a list of current participants in the SocialCG here: https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/participants
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[tantek] what is SocialCG
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Loqi The Social Web Working Group (AKA Social Web WG or Social WG) was a W3C Working Group from 2014-2018 that was chartered with developing specifications (including IndieWeb specifications) for the social web, based on the outcome of the 2013 osfw3c workshop https://indieweb.org/socialcg
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[schmarty] I'm in there now. :}
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[tantek] 🎉
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[tantek] maybe it's time for that new page then
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gRegor Ooh, I'm interested (and also a bit intimidated), but willing to dip my toes in.
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[tantek] Don't be intimidated. As an implementer, and especially someone who eats what they cook, you're very much "qualified" to be there and have & express opinions
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[tantek] [j12t] is your proposed SocialCG meeting time set/fixed enough to put on the IndieWeb calendar?
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gRegor *hacker voice* "I'm in" https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/participants
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[tantek] 🎉
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gRegor Apparently I applied to be part of the SocialWG but never followed up, haha
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[tantek] oh no
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[snarfed] SocialHub and the FEP process are possible new stewards if we want to move this out of W3C, eg https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/c/standards/fep/54
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sknebel are the implementers of other large-ish projects active in either of them?
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[snarfed] some, yes
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[tantek] a few. heh
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[tantek] I think the key is to have a meeting where it is >50% implementers, and >50% of the discussion is from implementers
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[snarfed] [tantek]++
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Loqi [tantek] has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (81 in all channels)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Who runs the meetings?
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[tantek] capjamesg, usually deciding on a chair and scribe is among the first things decided 🙂
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[tantek] and then the chair runs the meeting
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[tantek] if any of the current SocialCG chairs show up, presumably everyone will defer to them unless they want to delegate chairing
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[tantek] hoping aaronpk shows up to chair or at least speak up!
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[manton] I haven’t caught up completely on this but definitely interested in participating (or lurking) on the SWICG meetings.
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[snarfed] new Bridgy Fed unlock: figured out how to make original post URLs searchable. eg searching for https://snarfed.org/2023-03-15_49548 now shows the federated post on any instance that's received it
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Loqi [preview] [Ryan Barrett] Europe is the weirdest continent. I mean, Australia? Sure. Africa, North America, South America, definitely. But why does this awkward little spiky corner of Asia get to be its own whole thing, geographically? Weird. World Map Blank https://i0.wp.com/snarfed.org/w/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/World-Map-with-Continents.jpg.webp?resize=696%2C487&ssl=1
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[snarfed] just needs a link rel=alternate in the post pointing to BF's AS2. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/352#issuecomment-1481755155
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Loqi [preview] [snarfed] @kwaa reminded me in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1441 of an alternative approach for original post URLs, instead of serving or redirecting to AS2 based on conneg: add `<link rel="alternate" type="application/activity+json" href="https://...
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[snarfed] seems like it should work on any instance, but some don't seem to do that lookup, even for native Mastodon posts. eg searching for https://noc.social/@moznews/110073809171434559 on https://inuh.net/ or https://fidelis.social/ doesn't work, even though that's what Mastodon's own "remote interact" UI says to do
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[tantek] more federation details that could use specification for better interop!
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[0x3b0b] <[schmarty]> "warning: mailing list 😭" <- I'm pretty sure that has been the reason I Didn't Join A Thing before, but I don't remember when or for what.
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[0x3b0b] In this case there's definitely also the fact that I'm using Someone Else's Implemenation, not working on my own
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[tantek] 0x3b0b have you filed issues or otherwise help improve microblog.pub?
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[0x3b0b] A smidgen. I'm still considering whether I'm interested; if I were contributing more back upstream I'd probably be a little more interested than...however interested I decide I am.
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[tantek] also ok to lurk in IRC. there are many levels of lurking 🙂
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[tantek] in the W3C #social IRC
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