#dev 2023-04-23

2023-04-23 UTC
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[tantek] I didn't think I was doing anything super-odd. it was kinda long? it had hashtags? though the most recent reply also had hashtags, was medium long so 🤷‍♂️
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[snarfed] oh no I'm not claiming you are. still no clue what happened
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[tantek] [manton], posted: https://tantek.com/2023/112/t2/account-migration-post-blog-archive-format
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] One of the pretty neat innovations from #Mastodon has been actual, functional, and fairly reliable (from all accounts I’ve seen) distributed system account migration, with the notable exception of post migration, which has additional challenges wor...
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[snarfed] great to hear migrating into BF works! adding that to https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/330
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Loqi [preview] [snarfed] #330 Add account migration (Move) support
bret, geoffo, [TMichelleMoore] and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
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[jacky] being able to do a proper 'move' is prob the last checkbox for me to drop my mastodon account and use my account solely with no syndication
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[tantek] Jacky, good follow up thread on my post about how BlueSky is putting migration first and what impact that might have: https://hachyderm.io/@torb@octodon.social/110246507166708557
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Loqi [preview] [Torb 🦋] @tantek.com @maegul The fact that moving Mastodon instance and not retaining posts is not seamless and highly technical (even moving in itself is kinda technical) is one of the reasons I’m keeping an eye one Bluesky.They directly mention this issue...
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[tantek] robots << Warning, be careful of creating an auto-replying bot on any kind of social / web media, as it may be tricked into auto-replying with another such bot, forever: https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1004714335686549504
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Loqi ok, I added "Warning, be careful of creating an auto-replying bot on any kind of social / web media, as it may be tricked into auto-replying with another such bot, forever: https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1004714335686549504" to the "See Also" section of /robots https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87579&oldid=86985
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[tantek] websites that require JS to show images are poorly built, full stop. ([chrisbergr] per that first restaurant example you shared in #indieweb)
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[tantek] also I can't tell how much of the script src tags are due to codepen vs the example
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[tantek] and the iframe too
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[chrisbergr] [tantek] yes sorry, I completely missed the point with my links anyway. There is no semantic code behind it at all.
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[tantek] 😢
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[tantek] to be fair, the physical menu I redid in HTML+CSS 22+ years ago is not really semantic nor mobile friendly (and uses tables to get a liquid dot-leader effect that was otherwise impossible with CSS at the time) https://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/dotleaders.html
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[tantek] searching around I'm finding templates for sale, templates based on bootstrap and jQuery (but why tho?), and questions asked without answers
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[tantek] I did find this blog post doing some semantic thinking though: https://jonchristopher.us/blog/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/
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[tantek] capjamesg, do you have any thoughts on semantic markup for restaurant sites or pages?
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[tantek] I figure I'd ask people who may have already looked in to this / have an opinion before I start making things up 🐶 :test_tube:
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[tantek] the set of information to convey (on one page to start with) is described here: https://chat.indieweb.org/2023-04-23/1682261229237800
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Loqi [preview] [[tantek]] aaropnk, hours, location (address that links to a map UI or map embed w/o cookies), nearest bus/tram/rail stop, contact info (including a note about catering if that's an option), links to social media, links to restaurant review sites/aggregators (e...
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Zegnat sknebel: did you look into restaurant sites when you were looking for information for OSM? ^
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[tantek] Zegnat, nothing from OSM came up in any of my searches. Do you have a link handy to how OSM represents restaurants?
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[tantek] (and no I don't have any faith in the made-up stuff at schema-org so don't bother pointing me there. I trust my ability to make things up more than the handwaving at schema-org)
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[KevinMarks] A lot of restaurants built on "order by phone" tools during the pandemic here (where you start by scanning a QR code on the table)
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[tantek] only prior art I found was for a subset of a restaurant site: https://microformats.org/wiki/menu
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[KevinMarks] Eg the pub in in now links to this https://dishcult.com/restaurant/hopeandunion?sortOrder=0&page=1&bookingDate=2023-04-23&covers=2&promotionId=0
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Zegnat [tantek]: OSM has a pretty good wiki. But I personally haven’t paid much attention to restaurants. I focussed more on shops in the area and updating their opening hours. For which they have a pretty strict (but flexible) syntax: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours
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[tantek] yup, opening hours is also a small subset, and we have that covered (along with a link to OSM) in https://microformats.org/wiki/opening-hours
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Zegnat (Aside: IMHO the best part of the OSM time syntax are extended hours. Because saying a bar is open from 19:00 to 27:00 just makes a lot of sense to me.)
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[tantek] big fan of 24:00+ hours
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[davidmead] [tantek] I did a couple of local restaurant sites while freelancing in the early 00's. Used class names of `menu`, `menu-item`, `menu-item-desc`, and `menu-item-price` for the tables (cough) and then definition lists I used. Also marked up the business as a `vcard` with 24hr time for operation hours.
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[davidmead] Hope that helps 🙂
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[manton] Thanks [tantek] for the migration / blog archive post. I’m going to spend some time on that this week.
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[tantek] [davidmead]++ for the old school hCard and semantic class names :face_holding_back_tears:
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Loqi [davidmead] has 1 karma over the last year
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I should try and make my ideal restaurant site.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Plain text is so much easier for me to manage.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> (Markup is fine.)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I hesitate to support menus on Breakfast and Coffee without restaurants publishing them, marked up.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> It would be intriguing to see how GPT could be used to extract restaurant information from a page
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Instagram bios and websites would be a good place to start.
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[davidmead] [tantek] I am nothing if not “old” school 😉
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[davidmead] Says something about the glossed over areas of the web, that over 20 years later we still don’t have “standard” way of marking restaurant menus up. Everyone just took a `.pdf` as the de-facto method and moved on
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[davidmead] back to lurking now 🙂
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@NikolovLazar Testing webmentions ignore this tweet: https://nikolovlazar.com (twitter.com/_/status/1650249902373453829)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Have there been discussions on a universal avatar standard for personal websites?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> /now for avatars.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I thought about /avatar that redirects to my most recent avatar.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The redirect is temporary.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> And necessary because I don’t want to dictate file formats.
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[snarfed] gravatar, favicon/rel-icon, etc?
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@NikolovLazar Testing webmentions please ignore thiss https://nikolovlazar.com/blog/distributed-tracing-in-nextjs (twitter.com/_/status/1650254496004538368)
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Zegnat I think just website favicons/rel-icons are the easiest. I use the same photo as rel-icon and u-photo.
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Zegnat Gravatar is big, but I feel like Libravatar (the self-hosted version) never caught on? (https://wiki.libravatar.org/api/)
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[tantek] capjamesg, you know what people used to call avatars before the silly movie and snowcrash? Photos. Like /photo(.jpg) :P
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[tantek] And want something "small"? Why put one use-case (favoriting?) into the name? /icon(.jpg) is good enough
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[tantek] Zegnat, you mean futzing with one-off DNS records never caught on? I’m shocked
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[tantek] Btw at least in snowcrash "avatar" was used to mean a whole lot more than a (3D) image. All kinds of stuff like the "physical" (layout) boundaries vs stuff that overflowed like beans of light that other things could harmlessly intersect in virtual space.
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[tantek] The fact that all the "metaverse" folks were happy to redefine "avatar" as a synonym of "3d icon" goes to show how little they paid attaention to the details of the metaverse as described in original text as it were
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[tantek] [davidmead] I feel that. Also my perspective on the "why" for punishing and markup has evolved a bunch in Wo years. Now the use case for me for restaurant sites / pages is to connect local residents with their local restaurants, and help build/grow those local economy relationships. Neighbors supporting local small businesses.
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[tantek] Argh /punishing/publishing
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[tantek] argh again s/punishing/publishing/g
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[tantek] puts down this silly touch keyboard that still doesn't hold a candle to the worst of Blackberry tactile keyboards
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GWG I discovered my location API system is broken again. I need to test more often
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[tantek] capjamesg, your instinct to avoid actual menus on B&C is correct
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[tantek] I believe there is a way to enable something close, which is an emergent "menu" that is populated by the items that are reviewed by people at a restaurant/cafe
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[tantek] so if everyone reviews the black drip coffee and the veggie hummus bagel, that's all that shows up on the "emergent menu" for a cafe, even if there is a decaf espresso on the actual physical / in-person menu
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[KevinMarks] That is what Google does - surface the menu items with most photos
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[tantek] that makes a lot of sense