#dev 2023-04-24

2023-04-24 UTC
bret, geoffo, gRegor and [Jo] joined the channel
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[tantek] capjamesg, in thinking more about how to proceed on better restaurant pages/sites, I'm thinking some incremental IndieWeb steps could be helpful
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[tantek] e.g. we have a notion of IndieWeb /venue pages, perhaps creating restaurant pages makes sense as a special case of /venue pages on our own domains, and we can syndicate out from there (and link to them in reviews)
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Loqi capjamesg has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (93 in all channels)
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[tantek] is realizing the genius of how https://breakfastand.coffee/about_this_wiki was created capjamesg++
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[tantek] and the meta-ness of https://breakfastand.coffee/Submit breakfastandcoffee++
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Loqi breakfastandcoffee has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[tantek] I am discovering GitHub discussions and am wondering if anyone has found them useful for their development projects (IndieWeb or otherwise) https://resources.github.com/devops/process/planning/discussions/
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[tantek] I see that there is already some in-progress Bridgy support https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1078 and https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1077 (apparently I am rediscovering GitHub discussions since I commented 18mo ago on that second issue)
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Loqi [preview] [snarfed] #1078 Add publish support for GitHub Discussions
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Zegnat I like GitHub Discussions on open source projects mostly to have a place to offload questions too. General questions tend to slowly clog up the actual issues list otherwise, as they can often be much longer lived than actual issues that are being worked on
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[tantek] ah that make sense, a place where you can leave topics "open" instead of feeling like you have to push everything to a resolution and close
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[tantek] it appears GH Discussions are mostly like a mailing list associated with a project, with a few extra features like "pinning conversations and announcements", and "In Q&A discussions, mark which reply answers the question" — is there an IndieWeb equivalent to these?
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[tantek] E.g. this pinning any different than "normal" pinning?
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[tantek] what is pinned
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Loqi 📌 pin or pinning is a feature that allows the author to choose a post to put at the top of their profile (or homepage) which is then called a pinned or sticky post https://indieweb.org/pinned
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Zegnat Feels a lot better too, to tell someone you are “moving it to discussions” rather than “marking as closed” because it lacks actionable.
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Zegnat https://github.com/starship/starship/discussions was one of the first projects I engaged with a little that was actively using discussions
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[tantek] "Mark which reply answers the question" seems like it could be a useful feature, e.g. as a way for an h-entry /question to markup which of the comments being displayed is the best "answer"
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[tantek] That makes sense Zegnat, also as a way of moving vague / multi-topic issues to a discussion where it can continue in vague form while perhaps being the source of multiple specific new issues
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> What is a River?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Hm.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> https://www.techmeme.com/river
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> http://scripting.com/2014/06/02/whatIsARiverOfNewsAggregator.html
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I think the IndieWeb equivalent is an aggregate feed of all posts.
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[tantek] River is a term that never caught on
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aaronpk TIL https://dev.to/codepo8/upgrading-our-css-habits-aspect-ratio-flb this is so cool
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aaronpk css aspect ratio!
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bkil as prices on a menu (or even specific names of courses). The length of the value of a property is also limited to up to 255 characters.
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bkil smoking, language, theme, background_music (*music*), *wheelchair*, air_conditioning, outdoor_seating:*, *covid19*, image, wikipedia, wikidata, start_date, drinking_water:refill, internet_access:*, reusable_packaging:*, breakfast:*, lunch:*, dinner:*, diet:*, organic, fair_trade, alcohol, sells:*, drink:*, addr:*, contact:*, website:menu, toilets:*, payment:*. Notably, you can not tag properties that are generally subjective (ratings) or rapidly changing such
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bkil Zegnat: A determined OSM mapper here. You can tag the following on a restaurant: name, strapline, description, brand, branch, level, stars, opening_hours(:kitchen), happy_hours, operator, ref:vatin, sport, television, cuisine, ice_cream, brewery, microbrewery, bar, reservation, takeaway, delivery, drive_in, drive_through, power_supply, self_service (deprecated), capacity, capacity:tables, changing_table, highchar, kids_area, infant_bed, floor_area, dog, pets,
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bkil https://schema.org/Restaurant
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bkil https://developers.google.com/search/docs/appearance/structured-data/local-business
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bkil [tantek]: Note that cookie banners are not required iff what you store in the given cookie is "technically necessary" (e.g., session state). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#EU_cookie_directive ("also zero JS/cookies so you don't need a cookie banner anywhere")
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bkil > The Directive does not require users to authorise or be provided notice of cookie usage that are functionally required for delivering a service they have requested, for example to retain settings, store log-in sessions, or remember what is in a user's shopping basket.
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bkil Neither do you need a banner to use JavaScript. But also, complaining about images not showing after having installed a special extension and then asking for plain text restaurant sites (I guess this means without containing images?) sounds a bit odd.
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[manton] Morning folks. Thanks [tantek] for the nudge about export formats… Just blogged about a first pass at a script to get this ball rolling. https://www.manton.org/2023/04/24/mastodon-to-blog.html
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Loqi [preview] [Manton Reece] Mastodon to Blog Archive script
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[tantek] [manton]++ awesome!
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Loqi [manton] has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (45 in all channels)
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[tantek] I like OSM as a source for schema information because it has been community developed, based on real world experience (in contrast to the largely a priori designed schema-org ontology).
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[tantek] It's too bad OSM pages/permalinks for restaurants lack good semantic markup (because they have shown up precisely zero times in any/all searches for restaurant web sites)
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[tantek] what is a cookie banner
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Loqi A cookie banner is an overlay on a website that usually covers content to inform users about the cookies which are used on a site https://indieweb.org/cookie_banner
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[tantek] sounds like that page could be improved with some citaitons
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[manton] Got a little pushback from Dave Winer that a format with a generic name like “blog archive format” should have consensus from more people. http://micro.blog/dave/18615412
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sknebel lol
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Loqi [preview] [dave] @manton -- maybe we should have a conversation about that, because anything with that kind of name should be some kind of a consensus, imho.
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[manton] I’m happy to hear suggestions. I still haven’t seen any proposals for something that tries to solve the same problems. First posted about this almost 6 years ago at IndieWebCamp!
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aaronpk sounds like he's offended you didn't ask for his approval
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[KevinMarks] What does blogger export in takeout?
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[KevinMarks] ah, Atom format
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[KevinMarks] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2023/04/dev-20230424-164903-screenshot_2023-04-24_at_17.48.26_0100.png
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aaronpk oh hey slack image uploads are working
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aaronpk i forgot i fixed that
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sknebel lol
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aaronpk [manton]: IMO by talking about this at indiewebcamp, including it in your microblogging book, putting it on the wiki, etc, you've already done enough getting it out there. it's not like you stealth launched this yesterday
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aaronpk 🙃 https://micro.blog/dave/18616061
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Loqi [preview] [dave] @manton -- i came up with something like this in 2002 called RSS 2.0, and this is specifically provided for in the source namespace. i think it's important if you want lots of support in something like this to not "welcome input" rather "steal from t...
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[KevinMarks] Talking about consensus and RSS 2.0 in consecutive posts is quite a thing.
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aaronpk indeed
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[tantek] wow
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[manton] [aaronpk] Thanks. Definitely wasn’t a secret!
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[tantek] [manton] now that you've prototyped an AS2 to BAF converter, clearly the next step is to prototype an RSS2 to BAF converter
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[KevinMarks] Unmung is fairly close. I need to go back to get that again
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[tantek] or could you get UnSung for the S as in syndication formats?
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aaronpk TIL nostr supports plain domains as identifiers https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/05.md#showing-just-the-domain-as-an-identifier
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aaronpk "f Bob owns bob.com, he may not want an identifier like bob@bob.com as that is redundant. Instead, Bob can use the identifier _@bob.com and expect Nostr clients to show and treat that as just bob.com for all purposes"
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[manton] That’s news to me too.
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[schmarty] looking to expand my minimal-but-not-haphazard PHP project chops. aaronpk i notice you use idiorm on Watchtower and learned of its "feature-completeness", and then this adventure 😬 https://github.com/j4mie/idiorm/pull/372
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Loqi [preview] [aaronpk] #372 PHP 8.1 compatibility
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aaronpk heh
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[manton] [aaronpk] Wonder why they invented `.well-known/nostr.json` instead of using WebFinger… Seems mostly the same.
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aaronpk yeah, no idea. i haven't dug into this at all yet really
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[manton] Nostr feels very jarring to me in the way it handles usernames… The timeline (at least in the app Damus) will load with posts referencing the public key usernames, then update with the human-readable usernames as it figures things out or more info syncs from relays.
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[KevinMarks] love this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krMw1QTP2no
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[KevinMarks] webfinger requires an active server most of the time, presumably nostr.json can be static?
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[snarfed] true for multi-user servers, but for single-user sites people can and do make it work with just static files. odd, but possible
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gRegor what is nostr?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "nostr" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "nostr is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[snarfed] nostr is kind of incomprehensible
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Loqi ok
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[snarfed] ✅
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gRegor XD
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[schmarty] lol
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gRegor Sure sure, give us future wiki gardening work :)
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[snarfed] hah true
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[snarfed] will delete, kthxbye
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gRegor It's a social media for only ints, right?
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gRegor sees myself out
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epoch nostr.json can be static
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[tantek] gRegor only scalars yeah
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epoch reads more of the backlog
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epoch yeah, they probably could have push it into webfinger
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[KevinMarks] webfinger--
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Loqi webfinger has -5 karma in this channel over the last year (-6 in all channels)
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epoch I figure the relays would get listed as properties of the username to pubkey mapping
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epoch with webfinger, would probably map it to a nostr: URI instead of a pubkey hex directly though
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epoch or, we can start digging in with DIDs and use some hash: URI that is the same as the nostr key
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epoch :]
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[tantek] I’m glad other folks can go play with plumbing that they wish to and it has no impact on folks with other priorities
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[snarfed] much nuance, so mature, wow
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epoch I'm glad me playing with plumbing doesn't affect others too
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epoch well, usually
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[KevinMarks] until your downstairs neighbour is wondering where the water is coming from
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[snarfed] 🥁