#dev 2023-09-12
2023-09-12 UTC
geoffo, Loqi_, Fisher244599, sp1ff, laker, [catgirlinspace], gRegor, [KevinMarks], [aciccarello], [pfefferle], jan6, jonnybarnes, [Murray], omz13, streety, [snarfed], [tantek], bterry, IWSlackGateway, jjuran, nsh, gnoo, benji, sknebel, oenone, sebsel1, angelo, chenghiz_, sebbu, tiim_, sivoais, trwnh, saptaks, gxt, Guest1350, Zegnat, Soni, t0nic, petermolnar, wagle, BinarySavior, IWDiscord, oodani, rhiaro, dustinm`, klez_, Saphire1, jeremycherfas, voxpelli, oxtyped, rrix, AramZS, [jamietanna] and AramZS_ joined the channel
# 
Soni we did write the thing btw https://fedilinks.org/2
# Soni the fallback protocol handlers thing
# 
[pfefferle] hey Soni, I stumbled upon the proposal and find it very confusting, that you are using the same domain for the well-known endpoint and the target
# Soni [pfefferle]: websites that provide webapp functionality (mastodon) would gain a protocol handler with 0 extra effort
# Soni the alternative would be to strip the hostname/port
# Soni but honestly making it a proper protocol handler is win-win
# [pfefferle] ok, then maybe I do not understand the proposal properly
# Soni [pfefferle]: ah okay
# Soni we mean it's a fallback thing
# Soni the idea is that you don't have anything but a browser installed
# Soni and yet you're still able to freely open these links
# Soni (without having protocol handlers installed either)
# [pfefferle] and they will open the protocol handler well-known uri then?
# Soni yeah
# [pfefferle] with the target as param?
# Soni yep
# Soni mastodon, forgefed, heck even feeds could benefit from this tbh
# [pfefferle] and what will this page do then?
# Soni [pfefferle]: whatever it wants to do
# [pfefferle] redirect to the profile page?
# Soni it used to be the case that some folks would add rendering code to their rss/atom feeds
# Soni we don't know if folks still do that
# Soni but it doesn't change the https URI
# [pfefferle] I think we had a long discussion in the repo about feeds and stuff... I do not like the web+ap wording... to AP specific
# [pfefferle] 🙂
# Soni so when you click it, it opens as a page
# Soni it doesn't open in a feed reader, and that genuinely sucks
# [pfefferle] but even then you need browser support
# Soni [pfefferle]: the mechanism is generic
# Soni [pfefferle]: nah, browsers would be top-down
# Soni we're taking a bottom-up approach
# Soni we want IRC clients to add support
# [pfefferle] sure, but when I do implement the web+ap link now, and click on that link browsers will not know what to do
# Soni we should be able to post web+feed://soniex2.autistic.space/microblog.atom and you can pick whether that opens in a browser or a feed reader
# [pfefferle] so the protocol handler is web+* agnostic
# Soni yeah
# [pfefferle] so if the browser do not know what to do with web+* it should redirect to the well-known protocol endpoint?
# Soni we'd rather have this work in sone things than have it not work at all
# Soni [pfefferle]: ideally, but we're not going for browser support at this point
# Soni bottom-up approach
# Soni start small
# Soni browsers are big gatekeepers
# Soni IRC clients are small
# Soni it can be done
# Soni check fedicraft (Minecraft mod) for an implementation
# [pfefferle] sure, but more important are the platforms, that have to enable support
# [pfefferle] even if IRCs support the handler, it does not help if Mastodon has no well-known endpoint
# Soni [pfefferle]: if IRCs support the handler, and other platforms start enabling folks to copy web+ap links, this actually puts pressure on mastodon to enable support
# [pfefferle] I am not sure if you overestimate the usage of IRC
# Soni [pfefferle]: okay maybe mastodon is too big for this
# Soni but we do think it's doable
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# [pfefferle] Oh, are you SoniEx2 from that discussion?
# Soni [pfefferle]: yeah
# Soni do mind the security considerations in https://fedilinks.org/2
# AramZS_ Oh, I was unaware of `registerProtocolHandler`. Interesting!
# Soni (do not use registerProtocolHandler)
# Soni (use PWAs, they're better)
# Soni (also check out the talk linked from https://fedilinks.org/ but it doesn't go in depth into why registerProtocolHandler is bad)
# Soni (the main thing is which side is triggering the action tbh: with rPH the website wants to do it, with a PWA the user wants to do it)
# AramZS_ I'm just skimming your proposal Soni but I'm curious, is the intent here to establish an approach for Go link-style setups?
# Soni (browsers don't want to change rPH to be user-initiated tho :/)
# Soni AramZS_: Go what?
# AramZS_ Soni: links set up for similar purposes or in a similar style of https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Go_links
# AramZS_ or like https://github.com/kellegous/go
# Soni ah, not really no
# Soni more like inheritance
# Soni (in the java sense)
# Soni but only partially
# Soni ultimately it's designed to be compatible with existing OS and browser APIs to help ease adoption
# AramZS_ Ah, I guess my assumptions about being opened in te web and "something else" are prob incorrect about which something elses. It might be useful to have a clearer example here b/c I'm not entirely sure what would classify as the something else. Like, something else as in a device-level app?
# Soni yeah
# Soni like tokodon or feditext
# AramZS_ Ah, got it. I understand now.
# Soni we haven't defined web+feed yet because we're not entirely sure about usage
# Soni web+ap was a lot easier
# Soni (even then we explicitly reserved the userinfo for future use)
# Soni (current plan is to use userinfo for tags, as tag:Foo@, e.g. web+ap://tag:FediLinks@chaos.social/tags/FediLinks or so)
# Soni (but we don't know)
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# [snarfed] [pfefferle] by "domain" we're including any level of domain, not just pay-level, right? eg http://foo.wordpress.com as well as http://foo.com
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# [pfefferle] That’s true, but hard to include the requirement of a domain or subdomain instead of pathes as a requirement of the spec!?!
# [pfefferle] And even harder when thinking about backwards compatibility
# [pfefferle] And therefore it’s nice to have WebFinger for @-mentions
# 
[KevinMarks] no, that's a UX issue
# [KevinMarks] the @ autocomplete puts a URL in the actual AP message or web page
# [KevinMarks] the webfinger bit is a way of not caching the autocomplete sensibly
# [pfefferle] But there might not be an autocomplete… when I want to follow someone that is not known on my instance for example
# [KevinMarks] at that point you're expected to remember @'s instead of a /, which is right there in the browser bar or link to copy
# [pfefferle] but this does only work if you are able to simplify pathes/domains/subdomains, but that is not how things normally work.
# [pfefferle] I can not simply introduce subdomains for every WordPress user in a self hosted blog for example
# [KevinMarks] subdomains are how things normally worked for a long time - tumblr, wordpress, blogger etc, and doing subdomains isn't that hard
# [pfefferle] But these are platforms! I prefer Indie ☺
# [KevinMarks] I made https://tumblelog.xyz/ to redirect subdomains and it wasn't that hard
# [pfefferle] And even http://WordPress.com and tumblr support multi users per blog
# [pfefferle] I am not against domains, but I like WebFinger as simple and generic identifier
# [KevinMarks] it isn't though. A simple and generic discovery would be to use this idea, not the 3 layers of cruft that webfinger requires https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDiscovery#use_rel_with_template
# [pfefferle] Sure, the efficiency of the discovery process could be improved
# [KevinMarks] > One extremely simple solution is with a rel header for the template to map back and forth between user@host and url. rel="accountmap" template="https://Example.social/@
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# [KevinMarks] I can't work out how to log into my personal AWS account now I have been logged into 2 differwnt ones for work as the password manager in the browser has got lost
# [KevinMarks] the new chrome password manager seems to have filed all amazon passwords under http://amazon.ca, so now I have to guess which one I should be using
# [KevinMarks] and I have 2 different 2fa setups so the number of combinations is super annoying
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# [KevinMarks] I have multiple browser profiles already
# [KevinMarks] I reset the PW, and now know which 2fa it is, but now I wonder if the other account wants the same one
# [KevinMarks] well, that's still very annoying
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# 
Loqi A web action is the interface and user experience of taking a specific discrete action, across the web, from one site to another site or application, like a cross-site follow button, or a reply button on a post, which when activated, allows you to reply using your own site instead of the site you are viewing https://indieweb.org/Webactions
# Soni no, fuck that, that's unsafe, that's horrifying, that is exactly why the Security Considerations part of our spec exists
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# capjamesg What spec is this
# capjamesg And what part is unsafe?
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# Soni our spec: https://fedilinks.org/2
# Soni (also works from IRC! and other things that aren't HTML!)
# capjamesg Why is this better than webactions?
# Soni <Soni> (also works from IRC! and other things that aren't HTML!)
# Soni (and, y'know, actually takes security considerations into account)
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