#dev 2024-01-08

2024-01-08 UTC
gRegor, to2ds, bterry, Renfield and [tantek] joined the channel
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d​rn4007 Is there an explanation of the existence of both IndieAuth and RelMeAuth? It seems like there's a lot of overlap. I'm trying to wrap my head around the auth side of IndieWeb
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sknebel RelMeAuth can only do authentication (who are you), not authorization. RelMeAuth relies on third parties, IndieAuth doesn't
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sknebel hence the indieweb protocols generally using IndieAuth, because they involve authorization of clients of some kind
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d​rn4007 From reading the spec, the IndieAuth authorization endpoint generally either uses RelMeAuth, or a 3rd party. Or have accounts itself I guess.
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GWG My explanation would be that Rel-Me Auth is not really Auth per se. It is a discovery method.
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GWG I built an endpoint and I don't use relmeauth.
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sknebel " IndieAuth authorization endpoint generally either uses RelMeAuth, or a 3rd party" - I'm curious where you got that from the spec. the spec says nothing about how the endpoint interacts with/authenticates the user
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d​rn4007 From this section - "It is up to the authorization endpoint how to authenticate the user. This step is out of scope of OAuth 2.0, and is highly dependent on the particular implementation. Some authorization servers use typical username/password authentication, and others use alternative forms of authentication such as [RelMeAuth], or delegate to other identity providers"
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IWDiscord <d​rn4007#0>
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d​rn4007 I'm finding it difficult to mentally organise all the different formats, specs and availabile services. So I've likely gone astray somewhat!
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sknebel and indeed in a CMS/blogging engine/... using internal user accounts would be the common choice. really only one implementation afaik does RelMeAuth, and thats a special case because it doesnt want to store anything about users
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GWG I wrote my IndieAuth endpoint into WordPress, so it requires login to your WordPress account
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d​rn4007 Thanks, I guess I need to look at some actual use cases. And the compare against my own.
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[tantek] GWG, disagreed, RelMeAuth was literally created to solve an Auth use-case, and it does that for folks that want to use a silo-account as a form of authentication (e.g. they may have a nice 2-factor setup on their GitHub account) but not as their identity on whatever site they are signing into
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GWG I meant it doesn't specify how to be authorized, more how to find someone to authorize on your behalf
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[tantek] It does, it says to use the OAuth of the rel-me confirmed external site
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GWG As often the case, I should choose my words more effectively
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d​rn4007 Thanks for the input everyone.
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IWDiscord <d​rn4007#0>
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d​rn4007 I've a bit more reading to do, I'll organise my thoughts and share them (is a blog post preferable?)
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d​rn4007 I'm delighted I stumbled upon IndieWeb, and am building out some services to handle my own login.
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IWDiscord <d​rn4007#0>
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IWDiscord <d​rn4007#0>
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d​rn4007 I'm a software engineer on a career break so it's nice to have something to keep my curiosity going.
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[tantek] welcome d​rn4007++
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[tantek] GWG, I used RelMeAuth for auth successfully for my personal website for years so the claim "Rel-Me Auth is not really Auth per se" is demonstrably false. Just because you're not using something according to how it is fully specified doesn't mean others are not.
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[tantek] drn4007, as a developer, you may want to start with the various building blocks, depending on what you want to do with your site
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[tantek] what are building blocks
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Loqi 🧱🔩 Building blocks are key design-patterns, technologies, and methods for building and improving your independent website https://indieweb.org/building-blocks
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d​rn4007 At the moment my plan is to build out the required capabilities to authenticate into my own site. I won't need authorization just yet, but may add it in as a feature. Just for fun really..
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d​rn4007 I'm trying to tie into IndieWeb which is where I'm getting confused!
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d​rn4007 I'll read the specs again once I get to a point where I need to.
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[tantek] drn4007 "authenticate into my own site" is exactly what I used RelMeAuth for. Happy to help with any questions
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[manton] [sknebel] Catching up… Yes, http://Micro.blog downloads and caches custom Mastodon emoji from an instance when it first encounters them.
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[manton] Personally, I don’t like custom emoji because they don’t work anywhere without special support. So they sort of break the web. But I support them so things don’t look bad.
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[manton] If you have content that needs to work everywhere, it should use the img tag, not some special `:myemoji:` markup.
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c​apjamesg Would love feedback on https://capjamesg.github.io/drag-and-drop-list/
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c​apjamesg (it's a web component)
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[tantek] Jacky, I saw you posted this in #indieweb but it seems like a challenge directed at developers: https://gilest.org/indie-easy.html
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[tantek] I love the rant about terminals and CLI--
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Loqi CLI has -1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] Too many times I've seen "it's easy just npm blah blah blah"
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lazcorp [tantek] very similar to a Mastodon post I just saw: https://dice.camp/@Taskerland/111663255436259379
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Loqi [preview] [Moreau Vazh] It's always funny seeing techy people bang a drum for #blogging as it is always from a blogging platform that you have never heard of *and will never hear of again*Are there literally dozens of tiny blogging platforms out there or is migrating all of...
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[snarfed] [obligatory http://micro.blog plug]
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to2ds I rarely have easy NPM experiences 😄
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[tantek] [snarfed] I think the point of the post was something you could install & run on a web host without CLI
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to2ds Are CLIs generally frowned upon these days?
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[tantek] For users they've always been frowned upon. CLIs are a dev-only thing, unusable & inaccessible to like 99.9999% of people
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to2ds That makes sense.
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[tantek] What is a CLI
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CLI" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "CLI is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] 🤔
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[tantek] Plenty of content mentioning but no page. I'll add to to-do
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to2ds Still a die hard CLI fan though. Feels good to be a one-percenter in at least something.
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to2ds Was surprised to find an updated console on Win 11. Can just SSH easily from it now rather than having to launch PuTTY or the she
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to2ds Was surprised to find an updated console on Win 11. Can just SSH easily from it now rather than having to launch PuTTY or the she
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to2ds Oops. the shell from my Git install.
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c​apjamesg [tantek] Thoughts on the web component?
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[tantek] whoa that's amazing
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c​apjamesg Yeah. So you'd surround your lists in the tag and it would just work.
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c​apjamesg I thought it would be nice to use for a song lyrics ordering web app where you can order lyrics by album.
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[tantek] It would be amazing for re-ordering your top N movies, songs, albums etc!
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c​apjamesg I'm adding a validation so it could be used for a quiz, too.
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c​apjamesg (i.e. order these events by date)
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[tantek] or voting
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[tantek] ranked choice voting
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c​apjamesg Yeah.
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c​apjamesg You could define the callback yourself.
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c​apjamesg I wonder what other web components I could build...
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aaronpk ooh do one for the little calendar badge like i have on my events
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/2024/01/08101020-7649.png
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aaronpk speaking of which, i really wish my website events worked more like meetable's events
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c​apjamesg aaronpk Your wish is my command ✨
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IWDiscord <c​apjamesg#0>
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c​apjamesg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1193992024840482907/Screenshot_2024-01-08_at_18.57.41.png?ex=65aebaba&is=659c45ba&hm=92cb187f3437f7093f06d398675f12a342d70b103400f6f7956b10d8ba7cf198&
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c​apjamesg Now I'll wait to see if anyone gets the Parks and Rec reference.
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aaronpk that was fast
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aaronpk capjamesg++
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Loqi capjamesg has 42 karma in this channel over the last year (133 in all channels)
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c​apjamesg https://github.com/capjamesg/calendar-date
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aaronpk neat
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[tantek] what is a web component
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Loqi web component is a reusable HTML element defined using the Web Components API, and created & used by IndieWeb community members on their own sites https://indieweb.org/web_component
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[tantek] ^ capjamesg please add your recent ones there! they are brilliant!
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c​apjamesg https://github.com/capjamesg/drag-and-drop-list
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Loqi [preview] [capjamesg] drag-and-drop-list: A web component that lets you drag and drop items in a list to reorder items.
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c​apjamesg I am a _huge_ fan of web components!
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c​apjamesg Isn't the web delightful?
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gRegor Have you written anything about why use them? I still don't really get them.
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c​apjamesg I was thinking about it.
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[Joe_Crawford] https://codepen.io/artlung/pen/JjzKGvq played with it a bit James
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c​apjamesg I like web components because I can write complicated JavaScript logic that is then abstracted away into a HTML element.
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c​apjamesg In the case of the draggable list component, all one needs to do is surround an existing list in <draggable-list> and it will work.
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c​apjamesg (as long as your list is semantic HTML, not a div :P)
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c​apjamesg I like how you can keep each component isolated so one doesn't affect the other.
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c​apjamesg I apologize for the styling on this page but... https://jamesg.blog/taylor-swift-quiz/
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c​apjamesg That page has five different instances of one web component running.
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aaronpk so are web components like jquery plugins
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c​apjamesg To embed each question, I used the web component. Rather than having to write more JS to populate a list from some values, or copy-paste the same HTML and make tiny revisions to each piece, etc.
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c​apjamesg aaronpk I never used jQuery. _trigger Homer retreating into bush GIF_
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aaronpk https://jqueryui.com/sortable/
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[Joe_Crawford] If the question is about making hard things easier, broadly, web components can sort of "hide" complex stuff?
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c​apjamesg Ooh, pretty neat!
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c​apjamesg [Joe_Crawford] For a HTML author, yes.
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[tantek] yes, web components are a good example of abstraction, in contrast to OOP
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c​apjamesg aaronpk Interesting! To answer your question, I guess, sort of.
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[Joe_Crawford] Similar aaron. The steps for a jQueryUI element would be to create markup that would match the needs of the component, then add JS to "bless" it so that it then "just works."
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c​apjamesg [Joe_Crawford]++
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Loqi [Joe_Crawford] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (14 in all channels)
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[Joe_Crawford] in James' example, it looks like `customElements.define("calendar-date", CalendarDate);` - which can then be used as `<calendar-date month="March" day="31"></calendar-date>`
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c​apjamesg [Joe_Crawford] Oooh! You should PR your code if you want to!
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c​apjamesg Having today's date show up is pretty neat!
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[Joe_Crawford] I'll make a PR. Should be quickish
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[Joe_Crawford] oh, james I can't push to a branch in that repo. I guess I need to fork. derp.
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[Joe_Crawford] https://github.com/capjamesg/calendar-date/pull/1 sure. why not.
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[Joe_Crawford] feel free to accept or what have you
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Loqi [preview] [artlung] #1 styling and default date changes
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c​apjamesg Will review soon!
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[schmarty] enjoyed this piece, shared in my work chat today: https://alexcabal.com/posts/standard-ebooks-and-classic-web-tech
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aaronpk this is great
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aaronpk "...how many times will you have to update the framework... Once is too much for what’s essentially scaffolding that I never want to see again"
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[schmarty] ^^^ yesssssssss
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[schmarty] they also like to their code and i am enjoying reading it!
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[schmarty] *link
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[schmarty] i didn't know about `pipx` as a python tool that lets you put packages in "edit" mode! (from their ebook building tools repo https://github.com/standardebooks/tools)
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Loqi [preview] [standardebooks] tools: The Standard Ebooks toolset for producing our ebook files.
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c​apjamesg This is delightful.
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aaronpk i am sharing that in my work slack where i was just having a conversation about whether to build a demo app in php or typescript+react :P
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[schmarty] aaronpk: wowowow
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c​apjamesg 😄
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c​apjamesg Please use PHP.
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[tantek] PHP++
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Loqi PHP has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[schmarty] that post also taught me about `ts` (aka `tsp`) - a shell-based task spooler that's like 15+ years old! i am very excited about this. https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/man1/tsp.1.html
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aaronpk what whoa
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[schmarty] not sure why they linked to the ubuntu package page. this seems to be more its home http://viric.name/soft/ts/
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[snarfed] [schmarty] does `pipx install --editable` differ from `pip install --editable`? haven't found an answer on https://github.com/pypa/pipx or https://pipx.pypa.io/stable/comparisons/ yet, seems like they're equivalent?
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[schmarty] snarfed: great question! until i read about it just now i didn't know the concept existed. today i learned that regular ol' `pip` can do `--editable`, i guess!
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[snarfed] yup! editable local installs are hugely useful when you maintain multiple packages that use each other and you make interdependent changes
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c​apjamesg I _love_ the `-e` flag.
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c​apjamesg I use it liberally at work.
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c​apjamesg Which reminds me, I can't remember if I did this but...
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c​apjamesg [snarfed]++
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Loqi [snarfed] has 70 karma in this channel over the last year (114 in all channels)
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c​apjamesg for giving me some good career advice ~14 months ago.
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[snarfed] oh! welcome! glad it helped
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GWG capjamesg: You mean I could have been asking [snarfed] for career advice this whole time?
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[snarfed] um
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[snarfed] I know significantly less about education, training, library sciences, or airlines than software
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[snarfed] 🦆
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GWG [snarfed]: Good, because I've been entirely unsuccessful in all those areas.
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[snarfed] I kinda doubt that 😁
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[snarfed] (but we're probably into #indieweb-chat now)
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GWG I'm kidding around anyway.
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GWG So yes
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gRegor I shouldn't be surprised, but now that my old posts no longer have a comment form, the webmention form that's on there is getting hit. Interesting that when I had both forms, the webmention one was largely ignored.
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GWG gRegor: I'm wondering if I can reproduce your feature.
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gRegor the locked comments?
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GWG Well, WordPress has user accounts. I'm not sure if there is a...after X days, lock comments to registered users
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GWG And then start registering subscribers.
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GWG It would dovetail with my ideas on email subscriptions
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gRegor I thought core had lock all comments after x days, don't know about registered users only tho
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GWG And audience-restricted posts
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gRegor Yeah, makes sense
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GWG gRegor: It has that feature. I'm not sure if anyone tried the other option...
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GWG But, it would be a nice little set of features
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GWG Especially paired with IndieAuth. What if I allowed subscriber level account creation with IndieAuth?
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gRegor Yeah, sounds like a good idea.
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GWG Have a few other things I need to do... I should document the idea though
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gRegor document all the things!
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gRegor !meme document all the things!
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gRegor ah well
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GWG gRegor: Have to decide where?
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gRegor Hm?