#dev 2024-01-24
2024-01-24 UTC
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[tantek] [snarfed] more BF weirdness. mentioning fed.bridgy from my latest post via https://mention.tech/ seems to result in a red X (some form of rejection?) and not showing up on my BF dashboard
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] @snarfed.org posted a great overview of thoughtful (and sometimes heated) discussions across blogs and the #fediverse about how freely should “public” posts & comments on the web flow across sites:
“Moderate people, not code” (https://snarfe...
# [tantek] [KevinMarks] what does the red ❌ mean on https://mention.tech/ ?
# [tantek] [snarfed] BridgyFed is broken both for the new post federation case, and for updating a prior post, both of which I did in the past 30ish min, sent several webmentions for, verified that yes their permalinks have links to http://fed.brid.gy inside, and see zero evidence of anything happening on https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com
# [tantek] https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com now shows it posted "a minute ago". Is it normal to expect a 45min+ lag from Webmention to federation?
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jacky might be interesting for multiple authors to a blog (or syncing micropub servers between one another) https://www.loro.dev/blog/loro-richtext
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[KevinMarks] I think red X means couldn't find the target in the page source
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[snarfed] the relative times on BF dashboards, eg "a minute ago" like you saw at 6:21p, are last updated times. they get updated as the post is delivered to new inboxes. BF only lightly parallelizes those deliveries, and for >300 like yours, and receiving servers often taking a while to respond, it can easily take 20+m total
# [tantek] make that ~25min lag per 5:55:50pm PT to https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2024-01-24#t1706062863676700
# [snarfed] I get that this was frustrating. I can definitely improve BF's dashboard UX. this is the third or fourth time that the root cause of your site not federating was webmentions not getting sent though, so in the future, maybe tone down the "Bridgy Fed is broken this way and that way" language?
# [snarfed] https://telegraph.p3k.io/ is out there too
# [snarfed] and https://webmention.app/ etc
# [tantek] wow telegraph has broken link discovery. it's finding non-links (in title element maybe?) as links, and didn't see the http://fed.brid.gy link either. https://telegraph.p3k.io/dashboard/send?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2024%2F023%2Ft1%2Fshould-public-posts-flow-across-sites&account=993
# [tantek] wow http://webmention.app fails to find the http://fed.brid.gy link, and also stops at 10 links so fails to find the links after "moderation" in the post glossary
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# [tantek] ok the https://webmention.app/check link explicitly says "Keep in mind that this test page only scans the 10 most recent `h-entry` elements on the target." however there is only ONE h-entry there, so that caveat should be meaningless
# [tantek] same problem with that page, only " 10 webmention supported links found. " and again, did not find http://fed.brid.gy which was *before* any of the links it found in the source
# [tantek] [KevinMarks] mention.tech specifically https://mention.tech/mentionall seems to only be looking for links inside the "content" property which is incorrect. it should be looking for links inside the h-entry in general, since there are plenty of use-cases for that e.g. in-reply-to URLs go outside the "content"
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# [tantek] and yes on the subject matter of our posts, I feel there are A LOT more questions than answers at this point, and it's more important to keep asking these questions rather than trying to force an answer by reasoning from too little information (which it feels many perspectives are attempting to assert, and then fighting over their conclusions)
# [snarfed] 0x3b0b yup, very much still on the drawing board, feedback is welcome, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/800
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[0x3b0b] I may chime in on that later - I'm definitely interested in what you come up with. I'm actually more interested on a _personal_ level in another topic that I think I remember coming up before, which is what would happen if someone pointed BF at a website they wanted to follow...but that website was actually an AP profile.
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# [snarfed] for the second, you can try its BF user page manually, eg https://fed.brid.gy/web/[domain]
# [snarfed] sounds similar to https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/348 . BF would have to detect that a web site is also an AP actor, either by fetching it with conneg, or by looking for a rel=alternate link with the AP content type
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# [0x3b0b] I may follow up on that sometime soon, too, for the microblogpub case. I've run into that before from the other side - I deliberately marked up a note as an Indieweb reply to one of Tantek's posts, in the spirit of elevating Indieweb domains above @-@ addresses, in addition to posting it as a reply to its BF-erated copy so that it would thread correctly in that context. So of course he got multiple webmentions.
# ralismark hi, i'm wondering how bridgy backfeed works for github? specifically, can it send webmentions for issues that link to my posts?
# ralismark none of my comments on https://github.com/ralismark/ralismark.github.io-comments/issues/1 seem to get detected
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# ralismark tantek, https://github.com/ralismark/ralismark.github.io-comments/issues/2 also gives me "No webmention targets"
# Loqi [preview] [ralismark] #2 https://www.ralismark.xyz/posts/initial-post
# ralismark ahh that's unfortunate, i thought it would work more like the mastodon backfeed where you only need to link to the post
# Loqi u-syndication is a way to discoverably link from your original posts to syndicated copies on other sites like social media silos https://indieweb.org/u-syndication
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# ralismark yeah, alas BACKFEED_REQUIRES_SYNDICATION_LINK is true for github.py in bridgy so no way around u-syndication
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[campegg] [snarfed] I don’t want to pile on the BF support train, but was wondering if you had a chance to take a look at what was going on with my follows, etc? (https://fed.brid.gy/web/campegg.com) I’m pretty sure it’s something I’ve done, but don’t know how to remediate. There really is no rush; I appreciate the time and effort you put into BF!
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# [snarfed] ralismark [tantek] yeah GitHub backfeed in Bridgy is unusual in that synd links are required, not optional. https://brid.gy/about#GitHub%20responses%20require
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# [snarfed] [campegg] thanks for the kind words! it looks like you tried to follow my web site http://snarfed.org? BF only handles cross-network follows. it figures you'd just use a normal reader to follow a web site, you wouldn't need BF at all
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# saveme I was wondering where people host their videos and photos for their webpage? I want a dead-easy solution, but always overengineer it. (Currently syncing a local folder with vids to an s3 bucket and then using the api to get the links and loop through them in a gallery)
# saveme oh, nice, was also thinking about that, but I have a few (25) videos i don't feel that github would be keen on having a 1gb+ folder
# saveme or am I overthinking and this is an acceptable size
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aaronpk i have the activitypub conference talk on my site tho, and all the HLS segments are saved in the git repo of my site storage https://aaronparecki.com/2020/09/22/25/activitypub-oauth-2-1
# aaronpk well now i have a completely separate domain for this content, and i'm trying out some new things there https://aaronpk.tv/videos/
# aaronpk some of those in the list link to a blog post version of the video with the youtube video embedded at the bottom, like https://aaronpk.tv/videos/2023/11/yolobox-mini-in-2023-FLJ_h6d7HIg
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for ".tv" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say ".tv is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# btrem Moving from #indieweb per request, I'm trying to find some up-to-date resources for SVG and accessibility. What I've found so far is hopelessly out of date.
# btrem Apparently, aria-label can only be used on interactive elements. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/Attributes/aria-label
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# btrem My specific problem: how do I label a bar in a bar chart with the percent it represents?
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# btrem Well, the text is there, but the amount, not the percent. So each bar has a number, 9, or 3, or whatever. And the bar shows what percent of the whole it is. Working (more or less) version: https://btrem.com/feed/wordle
# btrem And the question is, *where* do I put the percent? What element should it be in? Another text element? And then how do I accessibly label it? There's no alt attribute for <svg/>, much less for a <rect/> inside an <svg/>.
# btrem And aria-label is apparently out.
# btrem And also, my frustration is growing. :-D
# btrem Hence my mini rant on #indieweb re: aria.
# btrem I suppose I could see if my screen reader-only styles could hide a <text/> element. $deity! what a hack.
# btrem impedance mismatch?
# [tantek] "impedance mismatch" is a metaphor from electrical engineering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching
# btrem So you think <text/> was an unwise addition to svg?
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# btrem I do remember those wars. Oh, the discussions on comp.web.authoring.html we had. :)
# btrem Perhaps you're right, the problem is inherent to svg. But I think part of the problem is aria, which also feels like an attempt to replace what we have with something brand new and shiny. Something to fix all the problems of the old system. Cue xkcd standards.
# btrem Whoa, didn't know you could do that.
# btrem Oh. Still, cool.
# btrem Funny -- considering the conversation from a couple of days ago -- that the message to post the image is very markdown-ish.
# btrem oh, didn't mean to do that. Oops.
# btrem I guess there's no way to use a double hyphen in #indieweb*.
# btrem Funny++
# btrem Hmm. And I can't undo it. That's wrong, taking karma away from Funny.
# btrem Well, re: svg, my goal is to see if I can replicate the New York Times' wordle stats page visually, but improve the accessibility. I've gotten part way there, just using posh instead of the div soup the NYT uses. So maybe I'll just need to learn to live with how it is now.
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[Murray] @btrem I can see that MDN is being a bit strict around the way they're referencing aria-label, but it should largely work. I think the more "correct" way to do this is using aria-describedby and the `<desc>` SVG element. Adrian Roselli has some thoughts here: https://adrianroselli.com/2022/04/accessible-description-exposure.html
# [Murray] Sara Soueidan uses a similar technique here: https://www.sarasoueidan.com/blog/optimizing-svg-delivery-with-svg/
# [tantek] I did find this memory https://alistapart.com/article/a-brief-history-of-markup/#section5
# btrem I don't know what is different between your Funny karma text and mine, but at least it was fixed! :)
# btrem [Murray]++ thanks for the links. I'm reading them now.
# btrem aaronpk :-D
# btrem re: alistapart I read that years ago. I have mixed feelings about the whole sordid affair, but I'd rather not get bogged down in arguments. I'm not strongly one way or the other, just skeptical of some of the author's assumptions (which were quite common at the time, iirc).
# [Murray] @btrem: if you're aiming for accessibility, one thing to consider is that your current implementation breaks a "golden rule": the accessible content is different to what I can see. Unless I'm missing something, the data visualisation only shows me what number of games were won on each successive number of turns. But the accessible label gives me a percentage. That feels confusing. If the visual label is "8", then the accessible label should
# btrem but kudos for this clever remark re: xhtml 2: "It would be inaccurate to say that it was going nowhere fast. It was going nowhere very, very slowly." :-D
# btrem The visual label for the *bar* is the percentage. The adjacent text has the number. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but bar charts usually don't show the percentage. That's what the bars are for. But they often include the number.
# btrem Ideally, I'd like for the number and bar to represent the data. But to have the percent and number for those with sight disabilities of some kind.
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# btrem And it seems like labeling the bar with the percentage is both intuitive and the right thing to do.
# btrem Sorry, my message crossed with yours.
# btrem I did notice that the percentages were not entirely obvious. It's not clear that it all equals 100%.
# btrem So you'd just skip the percentage labeling altogether?
# [Murray] The problem with adding an invisible additional label is that the ADOM now results in this: "3, 44%, 8". That doesn't mean anything. The visual inference you're really making here is "8 games were won on the 3rd turn". So perhaps that would be a closer accessible label to the visual. But personally, I wouldn't even do that. Visual labels should match accessible labels 1:1, as many sighted users still use assistive technology, and a mismatch
# btrem Yeah, I wasn't sure how it would work to have both the number and the percentage on the bar. I thought it might look cluttered and be a bit confusing.
# btrem For everyone, that is.
# btrem That's good feedback. [Murray]++
# [Murray] Personally, I'd find knowing the percentage kind of interesting, and it wouldn't feel that cluttered, but that's a design choice. Right now, 44% is not something that I can infer from the design as a sighted person either, so if you want that information to be surfaced, I'd suggest a visible label of some kind
# btrem [Murray]++
# btrem Nope, my karma is not working today. ??
# btrem Well, thanks in any case.
# [Murray] One other way of handling this is a toggle or other interactive event. You could hover the bars to reveal an extra percentage label (possibly to the right of the bars, to avoid cluttering the interface on smaller ones). Or you could have a switch-like toggle somewhere to flip between "number of turns" and "percentage of turns". At least, that's the kind of suggestion I'd raise at work 😄
# btrem I have to decide on which is more important, replicating the NYT site, or adding the additional info.
# btrem I'd prefer the latter.
# btrem But I sort of like the idea of "here's a pretty close copy of this other site, but better."
# btrem The toggle is a neat idea.
# btrem Left filed analogy, but back in the day, there was a form to email script in Matt's script archive that was notoriously buggy, especially regarding security. And a group called London Perl Mongers (I think that was the name) created a drop-in replacement. There were a few additional features, but they mostly constrained the project to drop-in replacement. This does what Matt's does, but avoids the bugs.
# btrem So I sometimes like to take that philosophy. Here, with the NYT wordle page. I did a similar thing with Open Table's awful restaurant widget. I was working for a restaurant, and also did their website, and wound up designing a far more accessible widget. And my goal was to make it look exactly like theirs, but with real html elements.
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# btrem Shame I didn't know about github when I did that. Might have been a fun project to make public.
# [KevinMarks] The other answer for video and audio hosting is Internet Archive, as long as you give it a creative commons licence
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# btrem Also, if I'm going to make wordle more accessible, the biggest hurdle is the tiles, which are emojis and therefore explain nothing. That's something I definitely want to tackle. Probably turn them into svg icons with a <title> something like, "letter not in word|letter in word but in wrong place|letter in right place".
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# [Murray] Sort of, though `<abbr>` support is patchy at best, so I'd say there are possibly better options 😅 https://adrianroselli.com/2024/01/using-abbr-element-with-title-attribute.html
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# btrem Wow, I just had a serious brain malfunction. I was about to ask where I could find the emojis used for wordle results because I want to know the hex colors. And it would have to be on the web so I could use Firefox eyedropper. And I searched the web and came up empty. And, just as I was tying the question here, I realized: oh, right. On *my* site. Where I'm now posting wordle results, including the tile grids. :-/
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# btrem But I still have a question: in some windows, e.g., VS Code editor, the wordle tiles have a white swish in the upper left corner, almost like a shadow. On others, e.g, Firefox, they don't. Any idea why? Or how I could see a version with the swish in a context where I could try to replicate it in svg?
# [KevinMarks] What you see for an emoji will depend on your OS. Emojipedia have references https://emojipedia.org/large-green-square#designs
# [KevinMarks] You can also get SVG versions from Twitter and Google
# [KevinMarks] They're linked from those pages
# btrem Thanks!
# btrem [KevinMarks]++
# btrem Ah, so probably doesn't make sense to worry about the swish, since different users will see different things no matter what I do. Like I see it differently in Firefox vs. VS Code on the same OS (Ubuntu).
# [KevinMarks] Likely they're using different emoji fonts. You can pick one you like the look of for consistency, though with squares it's a bit moot. I had this problem with stuff for BBC as I was using emoji in ui, but some of them were running very old windows versions where the emoji were black and white.
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# btrem Well, I'm not entirely sold on emojis. Using them in my own-my-wordle project has made me a bit skeptical. (Though, to be fair, some of the problems appears to be the result of javascript text-encoding ignorance. Maybe.)
# [tantek] that being said, I stand by my original assertion that for common symbolic (rather than in-prose) use of emojis in particular, it is quite possible to use the <abbr> element ... with an explicit 'aria-label' attribute of what you want a screen reader to say, semantically, instead of the often very verbose description of the emoji.
# [tantek] there is no harm AFAIK in *also* putting that text on the title attribute, and that way someone using a device with a pointer could also hover over the element in case they were confused, or if they had trouble seeing the difference between say the yellow and green squares in a low lighting context. e.g. <abbr aria-label="letter in right place" title="letter in right place">:large_green_square:</abbr>
# [tantek] in my recent post using emojis for list item markers, I realize I actually mixed those two. two of the list items use emojis purely decoratively (no semantic would be lost if replaced with •), and two of the emojis represent a label of a sort for the list item: https://tantek.com/2024/022/t1/indiewebcamp-brighton-planned
# sknebel (ah right, was Apple where they have numbers: https://emojipedia.org/blue-book#designs )
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# btrem It's not the definition of abbreviation that a layperson would use. A green tile is not the same as dept. or vs.
# btrem So I wouldn't have thought to use <abbr> for the green tile.
# btrem I'm strongly leaning towards svgs, because of the problems I've encountered with multibyte emojis.
# btrem Even though it will increase the page weight a bit.
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