#dev 2024-02-15

2024-02-15 UTC
[tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] update: no further visibility / fix from updating my post and federating the update via Bridgy Fed, so next experiment is to change the permalink/slug and retry it as a "new post"
#
[tantek] (on my site it won't be a new post because slugs just redirect to the current permalink)
petermolnar, tPoltergeist, chimo_, gRegorLove_ and [manton] joined the channel
#
[manton] [snarfed] I’m catching up on the extent of the reaction to Bluesky bridging… Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. 😞
geoffo joined the channel
#
[0x3b0b] I kinda wish I'd gotten my article hashing out my thoughts on the subject written sooner. But this idea only occurred to me after reading one of the reactions: What if the _first_ time (and only the first time) _anyone_ tried to bridge an actor on a protocol that supports direct messages, it triggered a direct message asking them to check out the service and opt in or out?
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] thanks [manton]! I appreciate it
#
[snarfed] 0x3b0b yes! that's the current idea
#
[0x3b0b] Neat. The fact that I wasn't the only one to have that thought makes me feel even better about it.
epoch and [pfefferle] joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] Just also stumbled upon the discussions around bridging, now I am sorry that you have to have these discussions [snarfed] 😞
#
[pfefferle] The fediverse is not always a friendly place…
#
[snarfed] [pfefferle] agreed. thank you, I appreciate it
#
[tantek] [timothy_chambe] does indieweb.social use any shared blocklists including shared instance blocklists from other instances?
#
[KevinMarks] Hrefna talking sense again https://hachyderm.io/@hrefna/111931620167055570
#
Loqi [preview] [Hrefna (DHC)] Okay, now that I'm less tired, a more salient point: Opt-out is not "you haven't consented," opt-out is "we have a situation where there is generally consent and we are giving you the ability to _revoke_ that consent." For instance, if I'm setting ...
[jeremycherfas] joined the channel
#
[jeremycherfas] !tell [gRegorLove] I fetch my podcast OPML from Overcast and process that to extract cover art and summary with a script. Running the script and updating are manual.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
[aciccarello] From that thread https://hachyderm.io/@hrefna/111931763225916573
dustinm` joined the channel
#
Loqi Hrefna has 2 karma over the last year
#
[tantek] Hrefna++
jjuran joined the channel
#
[jamietanna] Looks like http://mas.to is definitely one server that's blocked BF, so that's at least some folks I can't interact with 😥
#
[tantek] It's worse than that, following the http://mas.to/about links, I found http://brid.gy listed in this shared blocklist: https://codeberg.org/oliphant/blocklists/src/branch/main/blocklists/_unified_tier0_blocklist.csv
#
[tantek] And what Tier 0 means is described here: https://writer.oliphant.social/oliphant/the-blocklist-algorithm#tier-rankings
#
[tantek] Described as: "Tier 0 is a combined blocklist of only the worst actors, and it exists to provide one blocklist to which surely no one can object as a baseline for others. It's the perfect starting list for any new mastodon admin."
#
[tantek] ^ [snarfed] in case it helps with your debugging of Bridgy Fed
#
[tantek] !tell [timothy_chambe] does indieweb.social use the Codeberg shared blocklist, at least Tier 0?
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
[jamietanna] Ruh roh
#
[jamietanna] I wonder if we can at least get it moved to be the Bsky only domain, not everyone? 😥
#
epoch seems like the lists on codeberg are made by collecting lists from a handful of other instances
#
epoch so to get the codeberg list changed, you'd have to pester admins of those instances first
#
epoch or get the secondary list maintainer to change its inclusion criteria
#
epoch I'm guessing that the lists used are included in the repo and named after the domain they're from..
#
epoch rage.love is the longest with 1.3k lines
#
epoch sunny.garden also has brid.gy
#
epoch and mastodon.art, and union.place
#
epoch so, 4 instances have brid.gy marked as "suspend" whatever that means exactly I dunno
iamzim joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] [snarfed] is http://fed.brid.gy backlogged? I don't see your 12 replies to Tim Bray on xoxo.zone or even http://cosocial.ca, though Tim says he saw them.
#
[KevinMarks] I checked with the xoxo.zone admin and they aren't blocking http://brid.gy
#
[jamietanna] Ah gotcha. Welp 🙃
iamzim left the channel
#
[jamietanna] Snarfed would it be possible to surface the failed deliveries in the UI/logs?
#
[jamietanna] I see https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/blob/8cb36282700a70bd38c9f9788a1ca51c0daf8b85/templates/activities.html#L42-L53 so I assume we can surface it 😄
#
[jamietanna] / we have some info we can surface
tPoltergeist joined the channel
#
capjamesg [tantek] here is what I was talking about at HWC:
#
IWDiscord <c​apjamesg>
#
capjamesg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1207644430786633758/IMG_1904.png?ex=65e06585&is=65cdf085&hm=36ed3d13034470ecd8794299616f75d19047a6034a7f1556d881fb76c9d405b2&
#
Soni hmm
#
Soni if ipv6 is a class issue then burning down ipv4 is praxis
#
capjamesg Soni quick nudge that #indieweb-dev is more about building either your personal website or the tools behind websites (like Bridgy, Webmention, etc.). IPv4/6 is a bit off topic and it's not something that the community is likely to know as much about as websites themselves.
#
capjamesg If you ask a question about your website, there will probably be more discussion because that's our bread and butter here. We have a lot of technical folks, but the commonality between all of us -- and where we're at our best, collaboratively -- is in making website and the tools behind them.
#
Soni okay, should you pay for ipv4 when building a personal website?
#
Soni is that a necessary expense and if so why
#
Soni ipv4 is in fact relevant to personal websites, it is a class issue
tPoltergeist joined the channel
#
capjamesg I'm not qualified to answer that. My gut says no, but someone else may be able to help.
sebbu joined the channel
#
[jamietanna] Looks like social.lol have blocked us too 😥 got some friends there that makes this rather annoying
tPoltergeist and jacky joined the channel
#
[tantek] jamietanna this feels like there may have been some coordination among admins like on an admins list or something like that
Virtual joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] have a look at the #fediblock tag https://phanpy.social/#/xoxo.zone/t/fediblock
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] that URL shows "Unable to load posts with this tag"
#
[KevinMarks] hm, OK, that isn't the best way to link, gimme a sec
#
[KevinMarks] https://indieweb.social/tags/fediblock
#
[KevinMarks] that seems to be externally viewable
#
[KevinMarks] multiple people calling for a block on bridgy and snarfed
jacky joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Including Aral shit stirring
tPoltergeist joined the channel
#
[tantek] no surprise on that latter
#
[tantek] This was on point: https://makai.chaotic.ninja/notes/9pp4ngznnl
#
[KevinMarks] so Tim Bray asked a lot of good Q's about bridgy, and Ryan replied to them, but I cna only see them on Tim's instance, not on Ryans or via another one https://cosocial.ca/@timbray/111925993377458027
#
[KevinMarks] also, wow - vanilla mastodon is really crap at threads with replies compared to phanpy.social
[Murray] joined the channel
#
[jamietanna] https://social.growyourown.services/@homegrown/111921597925529205
#
[tantek] or setup another domain? sheesh
#
[jamietanna] Plus some nice comments from theAdhocracy trying to explain it locks many of us out
#
[jamietanna] Tbh I do agree https://indieweb.social/@aral@mastodon.ar.al/111923838463352874 - although yes that's likely not the intent that's gonna happen, there may be people doing it in the future to get around it / play whack-a-mole. But a real shame
#
[jamietanna] (plus further up the thread)
#
[jamietanna] I've been really enjoying seeing Aral's work (and personal views) recently and hoping I can still at least follow along, even if not interact
#
[jamietanna] (I don't want to get in to any (perceived) drama with Aral in the past)
#
[tantek] yup, there's a lot of ill intention being assumed on behalf of Ryan and that's horrible to see. Really sorry to see that happening for no good/sane reason, and maybe some folks just have an axe to grind and this week they're choosing to grind it here. [snarfed]++
#
Loqi [snarfed] has 69 karma in this channel over the last year (123 in all channels)
#
[snarfed] thanks for all the info and support, everyone
#
[snarfed] on Aral specifically, from https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/835#issuecomment-1942129083 :
#
[snarfed] > So as long as this made it clear that the account would be available to the Bluesky network (not just visible to the person requesting access) and included an option to ‘never ask me again’ so I wouldn’t be contacted via http://brid.gy again, I’d be fine with this as a solution. Unless I’m missing something, that implementation would fulfill the requirements of opt-in.
#
[snarfed] I don't know if/when he'll unblock the domains on his instance(s), of course
#
[snarfed] back in a bit
#
[tantek] thanks [snarfed], that's useful
#
[tantek] curious if evanpro has said anything or maybe worth a direct chat to get his opinion on this
#
bacardi55[m] [tantek]: Saw a comment from them on a github issue IIRC
#
bacardi55[m] [tantek]: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/835
#
Loqi [preview] [Mitsunee] #835 Opt-out is a terrible default and should be reconsidered
#
bacardi55[m] Not sure why the anchor got removed from the URL, but the comment in question is #issuecomment-1942129083
#
[tantek] bacardi55[m], yes [snarfed] shared that specific comment just a few lines above
tPoltergeist joined the channel
#
aaronpk wow there is a lot of really toxic behavior on that github thread
#
aaronpk why are people throwing out so many personal insults?
[campegg] joined the channel
#
[tantek] aaronpk, because someone posted an angry note with a link to the issue on Mastodon/fedi and brought the brigade
#
[snarfed] aaronpk I deleted and hid a few, but tried to limit it to the absolute worst. lmk if you see any more that you think should be hidden
#
[tantek] so of course it attracted the fedihate mob
#
[tantek] [snarfed] last I saw there was a whole subthread in that issue about arguing back/forth about whether "threats" on the Internet are a "normal" thing to be accepted or not that has nothing to do with the issue
#
[snarfed] heh yeah. I locked that issue yesterday. there are still debates in other issues, but much smaller
#
aaronpk there's still a few back and forth name calling between imdatsolak and nukeop in that thread
#
[tantek] search for all comments (and replies to) by "nukeop"
#
[tantek] those are nearly all worth hiding IMO as offtopic
#
[snarfed] thanks, will look
#
[snarfed] it's definitely disappointing that the blowback has affected the non-bluesky parts of Bridgy Fed, and maybe Bridgy classic too, not sure. I'm really sorry to everyone here who that impacts
#
[snarfed] it's very much made me question my own motivation for building the non-web side of this bridge, since it's not my own use case, or this community's. 🤷
#
[snarfed] (er, the parts where neither side is a web site)
#
[pfefferle] [snarfed] I had no idea https://wedistribute.org/2024/02/tear-down-walls-not-bridges/
#
[pfefferle] 😳
#
[pfefferle] This is way worse than what I read so far! I am so sorry that you got such replies and I am so glad that Sean took the time to write about it!!!
#
[pfefferle] deadsuperhero++ [snarfed]++
#
Loqi deadsuperhero has 1 karma over the last year
#
Loqi [snarfed] has 70 karma in this channel over the last year (124 in all channels)
#
[snarfed] thanks [pfefferle]! Sean and Damon at We Distribute and Laurens at Fediverse Report have been really supportive
#
[snarfed] in general, thanks for the support everyone, I'm doing ok, and this whole blowup is only tangentially related to indieweb, at best. I'm happy to talk about Bridgy Fed specific impact here or in #indieweb, and otherwise about the blowup itself maybe in #indieweb-chat
gRegor and tPoltergeist joined the channel
#
[tantek] lol this is summary is apt: "peak NIMBY Mastodon HOA bullshit"
#
[schmarty] snarfed++ wowowow. bravo on all your work here and your patience in weathering the responses. i appreciate teh summary from deadsuperhero++
#
Loqi deadsuperhero has 2 karma over the last year
#
Loqi snarfed has 71 karma in this channel over the last year (125 in all channels)
#
[tantek] [snarfed] re: "only tangentially related to indieweb, at best" tbh I'm concerned that the damage done to Bridgy Fed Web is going to be lasting, both in literal legacy blocks and somewhat reputationally. I don't think it's impossible to repair, it's just going to be A LOT of social / emotional / technical labor
#
[tantek] the collateral damage is real
#
[tantek] I think this is a wise thing to reconsider: "(er, the parts where neither side is a web site)" or at least re-prioritize.
#
[snarfed] very true re the long term BF impact. [timothy_chambe] does good work finding quantitative info on the extent of these blocks. he generally finds that it's noisy but ultimately relatively small, eg only 5% of active users are on instances that currently block Threads, and I don't know that this will get bigger than that
#
[snarfed] but yes the collateral damage is absolutely real 😢
#
[tantek] [snarfed] I'm not sure about the "5% of active users" analogy from Threads, given the entry on the "Tier 0" blocklist from codeberg, which is representational of instances, not something someone singularly decided
#
[snarfed] afaik the 5% number is a quantative measure from adding up numbers across the majority of instances
#
[snarfed] or maybe I misunderstand you
gRegor joined the channel
#
Soni [snarfed]: sorry
#
[tantek] [snarfed] two different things, one I think the analogy with Threads is incorrect because there seems to be many more (I forget what the threshold is) instances blocking Bridgy than Threads, per the Tier 0 inclusion, and second, perhaps related to the first, there is some motivation/fear of "block because we don't know what other crazy tool could come from that domain" whereas Threads being blocks is more well understood as "just another
#
[tantek] instance"
#
[tantek] being blocked*
#
[snarfed] understood! both are good points
#
[snarfed] I don't know much about Codeberg's lists or Tier 0, how widely they're used, etc
#
[snarfed] (the 5% number is active users, not instances)
#
[tantek] [snarfed] I discovered Codeberg's lists and Tier 0 via http://mas.to which feels fairly large/generic, which makes me think it's potentially very widely used
#
[tantek] [snarfed] on a more (hopefully) productive topic, shall I try federating a new post via Bridgy Fed to see if something has changed and it actually shows up on instances / tags results pages? Or would you expect the same result?
#
[tantek] I'm curious if any posts federated via Bridgy Fed are showing up on any instances / tags results pages
#
Soni btw, codeberg is a public git forge, like github
#
[KevinMarks] polotek's thread was interesting https://social.polotek.net/@polotek/111927390966163446
#
[Joe_Crawford] https://social.polotek.net/@polotek/111927466589248240 crystallizes my own thoughts perfectly.
bret joined the channel
#
Loqi [preview] [Marco Rogers] I keep feeling like I'm missing something. But it seems clear to me that fighting with every other individual in the whole world until you carve out the specific level of visibility that you are comfortable with is a solution that doesn't scale very ...
#
[KevinMarks] Also, there is a huge difference between reading fedi conversations with phanpy.social and with the default client. Absolutely night and day at working out what is going in.
#
[KevinMarks] eg this thread https://phanpy.social/#/xoxo.zone/s/111930718743712656
#
gRegor what is phanpy
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "phanpy" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "phanpy is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
gRegor what is phanpy.social
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "phanpy.social" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "phanpy.social is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[snarfed] [tantek] feel free to try again! iirc someone said yesterday that theirs were working, and my replies and likes are working, but I haven't tried a post in a couple days
#
[tantek] Thanks [snarfed]! will do
#
gRegor I federated an article yesterday successfully
#
gRegor And a reply
#
[KevinMarks] [snarfed] - some of your replies are a bit lost to me - eg when you replied to Tim's posts they show up on his instance but don't seem to be visible elsewhere
#
[tantek] gRegor++ thanks for the confirmation. did it have any hashtags?
#
Loqi gRegor has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (98 in all channels)
#
gRegor article went to 29 instances, 1 failure. That 1, whichever it is, has been failing since well before current events
#
gRegor No hashtags on the article, I did try to add #indieweb to the reply, set dt-updated, and send WM again, but I don't think I saw the post change in Masto
#
[KevinMarks] so if you look at that thread on the default view, you can see the thread path up and down https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/111930718743712656 in the same way you can in twitter, but in phanpy you can expand the other branches of the conversation
#
[KevinMarks] [snarfed] is it that you don't send out replies to everyone who follows you, just to the instance you're replying to?
#
[snarfed] [KevinMarks] maybe! but replies are still getting delivered and showing up, and the BF delivery mechanism is the same as for posts to followers
#
[KevinMarks] well if I do https://phanpy.social/#/cosocial.ca/s/111925993377458027 I can see your replies, but not if I'm Browsing via https://phanpy.social/#/xoxo.zone/s/111925995854605951 - I assume that means http://cosocial.ca has your replie but not xoxo.zone
#
[snarfed] probably yes, I assume that's the usual fediverse reply visibility thing
#
[tantek] lol "usual fediverse reply visibility thing" now that needs documentation
#
[KevinMarks] but I follow you from xoxo.zone, so I should see yours too
#
[snarfed] oh no, I meant above that BF doesn't deliver replies to your followers, only to the OP and anyone mentioned in the reply
#
gRegor Yeah my BF replies always go to one instance, the one I'm replying to
#
[KevinMarks] ah. So that means that even if I click +replies on your profile I don't see them?
#
[KevinMarks] That is a different behaviour from mastodon by default I think
#
[snarfed] huh. maybe! I'd be curious how Mastodon is fetching and showing those reples
#
[KevinMarks] only people on http://cosocial.ca see your responses https://hachyderm.io/@dorianlistens/111930892995549723
#
[snarfed] afaik it's standard ActivityPub to only deliver replies to the OP and mentions. those instances may then inbox forward https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#inbox-forwarding to others
#
[snarfed] it's very possible that I got some AP thing here wrong, happy to fix that if so!
#
[KevinMarks] That may be a mastodon vs AP thing again, not sure. I'll need to find some other conversation I'm not in to compare with.
#
[tantek] ^ this confusion is exactly what I'm talking about
[Joe_Crawford], jacky and [aciccarello] joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] most https://snarfed.org/category/reply posts don't show up under https://phanpy.social/#/xoxo.zone/a/109362740583426741?replies=1 (how it shows them via xoxo.zone)
#
[snarfed] sure, probably very few of my replies were delivered to xoxo.zone specifically. afaik this is just how AP replies work, right? and inbox forwarding is a nice band-aid, but not more
mahboubine and jacky joined the channel
#
[tantek] I will attempt one more renaming of the slug of my existing post (which triggers Bridgy Fed's "federate new post" flow) and then actually try making a new post to see if there is something about the content of that post that is failing to federate (I have no idea why or how that could happen but have no other explanation)
#
[tantek] hmm, getting multiple red Xes from mention.tech when attempting to send a webmention to Bridgy Fed
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] does that mean Bridgy Fed is refusing the connection / Webmention or something else?
#
[tantek] steps to reproduce: go to mention.tech. Enter https://tantek.com/2024/044/t1/twenty-years-microformats-top-updates in the top form field (source), and https://fed.brid.gy/ into the second (target) and press return. reload mention.tech. Note the red X in the top entry
#
Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] Twenty years and two days ago, @KevinMarks.com (@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone @KevinMarks) and I introduced #microformats in a conference presentation. I wrote a long retrospective last year: https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats Since...
#
[tantek] oh wait now on the third try eventually the red X turned into "12 seconds ago mention sent '202'"
#
[tantek] and now looking at https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com to see if/when it starts delivering my "new" post and seeing how that goes
#
[tantek] past experience is that BF takes about 3min to start delivering and showing delivery status
#
[tantek] (which I presume is within the bounds of "normal" latency for BF)
#
[tantek] like I'm guessing there may be an invisible process happening like "go regather all the instances to deliver to" which may involve checking to see if the instances are up or still receiving etc.
#
gRegor oh interesting, it usually starts <30s for me. I have a lot fewer instances to deliver to, though
#
[tantek] gRegor I literally wrote this up https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed#Activity_in_dashboard_without_delivery_status because I was confused enough I thought others might be too 🙂 (context: it's in a "Troubleshooting" section)
#
gRegor Like I don't think I've ever loaded my profile page there and had it not already started delivering. Just a scenario I hadn't considered.
#
[KevinMarks] It will show an X until it has verified the mention, which is probably not ideal; it should show something pending until it has actually failed.
#
[KevinMarks] it's async, so it first schedules a verify, which fetches the source and checks that it contains the target, then it schedules a send, which fetches the target and looks for the endpoint and sends the mention.
#
[KevinMarks] if you keep hitting send you'll have more than one callback racing
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] I suggest ↔ while pending
#
[tantek] because ❌ implies failure
#
[KevinMarks] I have to see if I can still deploy mention.tech, as I haven't in a while and it may not like me redeploying a deprecated python version
#
[tantek] gRegor I don't see any recent posts of yours on https://w3c.social/@gregorlove.com@gregorlove.com/ and yes my most recent post (despite two slug changes and thus reposting/federating as new post attempts) doesn't show up either at https://w3c.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com/
#
[tantek] I am also not seeing my recent post from when viewing an account on w3c.social that follows @tantek.com
#
Loqi [preview] gRegor Morrill
#
[tantek] gRegor, try posting something with a hashtag and seeing if it shows up in literally any instance's tags page for that hashtag. I haven't seen that succeed for *anyone* since Tuesday
#
[tantek] changed my slug back to the shorter version because there's literally no visible sign on any instance of Bridgy Fed delivering my post
#
[snarfed] sorry for the trouble, [tantek]. I suspect something unusual in that post itself, but I don't know yet
tPoltergeist and gRegor joined the channel
#
gRegor I don't think anyone on w3c.social follows me
#
gRegor oh, I guess so
#
gRegor well that's probably the 1 instance that's been failing for me, good to know :)
#
gRegor +1 for https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2024-02-15#t1707991802408100
#
gRegor I'll have to think of something post :)
#
Loqi [preview] [[jamietanna]] Snarfed would it be possible to surface the failed deliveries in the UI/logs?
#
[tantek] gRegor, something with at least one hashtag!
[KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
gRegor published, federating
#
gRegor anecdata: switched to https://fed.brid.gy/web/gregorlove.com after 2s and 1 had already delivered
#
gRegor 29 delivered, 1 failed. hashtag shows up: https://xoxo.zone/@gregorlove.com@gregorlove.com/111938091014767543
#
Loqi [preview] [gRegor Morrill] Digging Paramore’s cover of “Burning Down the House” and looking forward to the other covers on the upcoming Stop Making Sense tribute album.
#
gRegor Main difference between our posts though is I don't usually link hashtags in the content. Mine is just a p-category outside the content, which newer Masto versions show under the post
#
[tantek] gRegor++ verified, I see your post near the top of https://indieweb.social/tags/music
#
Loqi gRegor has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (99 in all channels)
#
gRegor Nice
#
[tantek] and there we go, my post is showing up too: https://indieweb.social/tags/ephemeralWeb
#
[tantek] [snarfed] in case it helps, there's another "long" note post with plenty of hashtags the did get delivered to various tags pages
#
[tantek] and shows up in my profile on Mastodon servers e.g. https://w3c.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com/
#
[tantek] still no idea why the previous post didn't show up
#
[tantek] (despite repeated attempts over days, including today)
#
[tantek] another data point, updating the prior post that was successfully distributed to tags pages *also* worked (and that post was updated)