#dev 2024-04-02

2024-04-02 UTC
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btrem @#!@# Help request: how do I deploy a site on Netlify that I uploaded. So /not/ via a GitHub repo?
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[aciccarello] Shouldn't it automatically be deployed?
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btrem You'd think. When I try to view it with the netlify.app subdomain, I get 404.
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btrem So maybe the problem is not the deploy but something else.
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btrem sighs
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[Murray] I'd check that it works locally e.g. launch the `index` file. Is that definitely in the root? How did you upload? Drag'n'drop the folder?
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capjamesg What is the best way to mark up poetry?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "best way to mark up poetry" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "best way to mark up poetry is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg I see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14734564/how-to-semantically-tag-poem-text.
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capjamesg I have been using p tags for each line.
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capjamesg And br tags for stanza breaks.
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[KevinMarks] Interesting, I do iy the other way round. A stanza is more like a paragraph for me
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lazcorp I'd use <p> for each stanza, and <br> to separate lines within each stanza
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lazcorp even when it gets into concrete poetry such as https://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/artists/hardeep-sangha/poetry/some-fink-at-a-downtown-dive
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[KevinMarks] previously https://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/01/ilife-considered-huge.html
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lazcorp MDM also suggests <br> for line breaks and <p> for stanzas/verses: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/br
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lazcorp *MDN
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[KevinMarks] Why are they using <br /> instead of <br>? We have up on XHTML2 a long time ago
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[KevinMarks] *gave up
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lazcorp [KevinMarks] I'm guessing it's an old example that they haven't bothered updating to HTML5 (but the semantics are the same, at least)
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lazcorp Another example from my site (not my poetry): https://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/artists/hardeep-sangha/poetry/no-more-protection
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to2ds Adding "replace <br /> with <br>" to technical debt list 😄
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[Jan_Tuomi] Writing `<br />` might also be a symptom of JSX-brain, I find myself writing that sometimes after writing React or similar 😄
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[lcs] Did we really abandon the principle of closing tags? This is outrageous
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[lcs] also adds replace <br /> with <br> to tech debt list
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[Murray] One of the issues is that it's inconsistent. `<img />` is still closed. And yeah, JSX and other templating languages also adopted strict always-close rules. Always bugged me that HTML doesn't 😅
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[KevinMarks] 'closing' tags in HTML is a weird XMLism
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[KevinMarks] I am annoyed by my HTML editor in VSCode turning `<p>` into `<p></p>` when I type it as that breaks formatting when I do it in the middle of a block of text I'm editing.
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[Murray] You can disable that in the settings; can't remember off the top of my heading what it's called, but something to do with auto-close
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[KevinMarks] lots of HTML elements don't need closing as they auto-close within contexts - `<p> <li> <dt> <dd> <td>` for example
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[Murray] I like to think of that as the chaotic good of HTML 😄
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lazcorp [Murray] - I can't find any spec saying the <img> element needs to be <img .... />
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lazcorp all the examples at https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-author-20110809/the-img-element.html do not use the closing slash at the end
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[Murray] Huh, same for https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#the-img-element
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[Murray] Guess I've just been wrong about that for years 😅 Again, MDN always has closing slashes, but perhaps that isn't required after all
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[Jan_Tuomi] `<p>` and `<li>` without the closing tags are cursed and you cannot change my mind
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lazcorp And as a double-check, https://validator.w3.org/nu reports <img .... /> (img element with a closing slash) as an info line with advice not to use the trailing slash
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lazcorp Info: Trailing slash on void elements has no effect and interacts badly with unquoted attribute values.
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lazcorp From line 22, column 9; to line 25, column 55 >↩ <img↩ class="fit-picture"↩ src="/media/cc0-images/grapefruit-slice-332-332.jpg"↩ alt="Grapefruit slice atop a pile of other slices" />↩↩
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[KevinMarks] `<p></p>` is cursed because it can exit the context for the `<p>` and break css formatting based on `p {}`
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[Murray] Surely a closing tag _should_ always exit context?
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to2ds <!doctype chtml> = cursed HTML
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[KevinMarks] if you have something like `<main><h2></h2><p>text<p>more text</main>` then the first `<p>` is closed by the second one, and the second by `</main>` so you can style with `p {max-width: 70ch}` for example. If the second `<p>` becomes a `<p></p>` then it will fall back to `main`'s formatting.
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redblobgames I find it easier for my pea brain to reason about it when everything is closed explicitly
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[campegg] Personally, I'm on team </p>, but if you're consistent with whatever you choose, the exit context thing shouldn't be an issue, right?
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btrem I always explicitly close my elements.
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btrem I don't know this to be true, but I suspect that the reason for self-closing tags is because html elements were originally created as dividers, not elements in the tree sense. So <p> was the equivalent of a pilcrow: a new paragraph begins here. <hr> worked the same way: a new section starts here (html5 makes that explicit).
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btrem And when the sgml folks got involved, they had to make it work in the tree sense. Easiest way was to enable shorttags, so <p> didn't need </p>; and declare <hr> to be void.
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btrem No way to verify. But it's plausible, and explains certain unfortunate "features" of html.
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[campegg] Huh, I did not know that. So was the intent to have something like `text text text<p>text text text` as the representation of two paragraphs?
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btrem I *don't* know that.
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btrem But I suspect that is the case.
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btrem Which would explain why orphaned text is allowed in html. But was not allowed in the failed *x*html.
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btrem xhtml being an attempt to fix the problems with html.
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[campegg] Fair assumption. And my response was poor phrasing on my part.
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aaronpk "problems"
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jacky unruly freeform text
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jacky the villain of ontological databases _everywhere_
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btrem Well, this is a touchy subject. I actually think implicitly closing tags was a mistake, as it made learning html much more difficult than it needed to be. If you could search the old ciwa* usenet groups, you'd find many a post asking why a validator claimed a mismatched </p> tag when no such tag was in the source code.
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btrem And implicitly closing tags has delayed the introduction of useful features. I have direct experience of this.
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btrem And for all we know, it prevented features altogether.
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redblobgames I think you needed the tree view of things for CSS to work
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btrem Exactly so.
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redblobgames I end up writing my pages and blog in xhtml, and converting to html with a post-process step.
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btrem I think there's a conflation of the misguided notion of sgml purity with the practical need for an easily understood parsing model.
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btrem So as I said, this is a touchy subject here, to the point that it can become hostile environment, but I think there /were/ problems with html as it was originally created. The shorttags "feature" being one. And I sympathize with the desire to fix them, even if efforts to that effect were misguided at best and often much worse.
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btrem And looking above, I mistakenly said "...the reason for self-closing tags is because..." when I meant "the reason for implicitly closing elements is because...."
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btrem [campegg]: didn't mean to jump down your throat. Just wanted to make it clear that I have no way of knowing why <p> was created as it was. Just a hypothesis. Because these things have a way of taking on a life on their own.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I wonder if MDN is using Prettier to lint their examples, I think that enforces the closing slash
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] https://jakearchibald.com/2023/against-self-closing-tags-in-html/
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[KevinMarks] the modern HTML spec does define a consistent way of creating a tree from the implicitly closed tags.
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[campegg] btrem, all good! It was poor phrasing by me 🙂
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capjamesg [tantek] How do you think post preview retrieval relates to metaformats? I was starting to write up how I retrieve post previews for use in hovercards on my website as a draft spec and realised that maybe there is too much overlap with metaformats? I'm not sure.
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[aciccarello] Link previews are my main use case for metaformats
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capjamesg Yeah, it sounds like metaformats solve the problem.
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[tantek] ^
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capjamesg Thanks!
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btrem [KevinMarks]: it does. And that's a solution to the implicit closing problem that is obviously far better than xhtml. Which, for the record, I thought was a failure from pretty much day one and never once used.
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btrem To put it another way: xhtml was a very wrong solution to some very real problems.
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lazcorp And all this because capjamesg asked about HTML markup for poetry :)
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to2ds 😂
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to2ds I'm afraid to ask about formatting poetry in Markdown now :D
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lazcorp lol
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capjamesg 😂
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capjamesg to2ds Don't. I'm asking about HTML because markdown is terrible for publishing poetry.
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capjamesg :jot
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capjamesg * 😂
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to2ds Though today's conversation helped to figure out a Markdown thing that plagued me with <br /> <br> stuff.
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to2ds Didn't know that two spaces after a line would auto pop-in a <br> for free!
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[aciccarello] Yup, one of the many warts of markdown
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[aciccarello] Personally, I like markdown as a plaintext format but there are lots of rough edges
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[aciccarello] _...ducks out of the markdown debate_
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to2ds 😂
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to2ds Markdown works for the majority of my use cases. Then I tried HTML tables 😱
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btrem I, too, like markdown, as it generally works for my site. But I'm a relative novice. I've only been using it for...hmm, when /did/ I launch my personal website?
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btrem checks
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btrem 2021. So three years.
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to2ds Maybe Markdown requires that 10,000 hours of mastery? :D
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btrem I didn't know until very recently that two spaces at the end of a line made a <br> element. So maybe, yeah! :-D
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btrem My text editor of choice strips extra spaces at the end of a line, so there was no way to accidentally stumble on that "feature."
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[qubyte] If markdown doesn’t work for you, make your own! https://qubyte.codes/blog/marqdown
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capjamesg [qubyte] What equation is in the math rendering?
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capjamesg I remember it from high school.
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[qubyte] Heh, the solution to quadratic equations with two roots. A classic.
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[qubyte] While I wasn’t looking, MathML got good. Still, usually too laborious to write by hand.
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[qubyte] *MathML support in browsers
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redblobgames Thanks to Igalia!
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to2ds btrem - 😩 Doesn't the text editor have a ✅ Don't second guess me. configuration somewhere?
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to2ds [qubyte] - Just looked at one of the parser regex in Markdown package and got dizzy 😄
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sknebel [snarfed]: https://snarfed.org/2024-04-02_52710 has a weird link on the image and looks very empty when federated to mastodon ;)
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[qubyte] Yes, marked is best described as _venerable_. Those are historied regexes.
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[tantek] ok first the whole h1/title debate and now self-closing empty tags or not?!? Who is bringing up these longstanding perma-dev-drama topics?!?
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[tantek] 😂
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[aciccarello] Beautiful photo though
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[aciccarello] New channel #indieweb-bikeshed /sarcasm
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[tantek] lolol
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to2ds 😂
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gRegor double close the tags to be extra safe <//joke>
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to2ds 😂
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[aciccarello] Safety first
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to2ds And here we thought poetry would be relaxing.
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[tantek] Markdown-- is horrible for poetry due to Markdown's mistaken treatment of hard line breaks (with no space before) as "soft-breaks", I will say
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Loqi Markdown has -4 karma in this channel over the last year (-3 in all channels)
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bacardi55[m] @btrem (https://matrix.to/#/%40irc_libera_btrem%3Amtx.bacardi55.io) In case you don't know, you can use a \ at the end of the line in your markdown to add a <br> (like you, I remove all spaces at the end of the line, so that's the way it works for me)
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[tantek] like don't expect people to edit their poetry to put two spaces at the end of each line just to pacify Markdown's quirk
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to2ds My 100 day project is haiku written in Markdown. Will now need 600 superfluous spaces now 😂
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[campegg] Something has gone weird with my DigitalOcean droplet… starting about 40 mins ago, Python started running at 100% CPU usage. A reboot and a hard shutdown/restart didn't help. Any ideas on how I can track down what's happening? I haven't touched anything on it for over a week now, so it's not new code or anything like that.
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[campegg] (And sorry, I know this is more system admin and isn't directly IndieWeb-dev-related!)
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[tantek] [campegg] we've had some discussions about creating a separate channels, perhaps an "indieweb-server" channel would be a good place to encourage these kinds of discussions. WDYT?
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[tantek] would a -dev vs -server distinction make sense
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[tantek] or would it be better to have indieweb-frontend vs indieweb-dev ?
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[aciccarello] [campegg] did the droplet have an automatic update or something?
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[campegg] [tantek] yeah, I think it might… I like -server better than -frontend/-backend; the former is more sysadmin, while the latter two both roll up into building sites
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[campegg] (👆 re: -dev vs -server distinction)
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bacardi55[m] Can you see what python script is running ? (eg with a ps faux | grep python)
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[campegg] [aciccarello] not sure… will check
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[tantek] [campegg] cool, good to know, I'll add the options on the brainstorming section and invite further votes / opinions
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to2ds Does -server imply -sysadmin?
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[campegg] That's a good question to2ds
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[campegg] Thanks for the tip bacardi55[m]! It looks like a cron job gone awry that's doing to the damage
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[campegg] *doing the damage
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to2ds bacardi55[m]++
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Loqi bacardi55[m] has 1 karma over the last year
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[campegg] Now I just have to try and work out why it's gone rogue after running perfectly for months
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[campegg] bacardi55[m]++
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Loqi bacardi55[m] has 2 karma over the last year
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to2ds It's been a while, but I remember similar issues when jobs running under cron stepped on previous jobs that were not finished within the cron interval.
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[campegg] to2ds it looks like a cron job (that runs a Python script) that just isn't finishing, then the next one spawns a new python process and so on. I don't know why it just started happening, though… there hasn't been any change to the script. Will need to spend a bit more time investigating after work
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to2ds Sounds familiar. Not that it applies to your situation, but we had solved some of those cron spawned reentrant types of issues with fnctl/flock, etc.
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[schmarty] lockfiles++
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Loqi lockfiles has 1 karma over the last year
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[qubyte] While markdown is far from perfect, I think we’re being a little unfair to it here. Its original intent was for prose, not poetry. Anyway, HTML is a poor fit by default too. When it comes to poetry, nothing is off the table, right? Playing with alignment and spacing is common, and HTML doesn’t have a built in vocabulary. That stuff needs styles to be applied to achieve. markdown++
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capjamesg My problem with markdown is that it is deceptively useful for poetry.
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capjamesg Well...
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capjamesg Actually...
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capjamesg That's unfair.
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capjamesg It may be the markdown-to-HTML conversion that is messing something up.
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capjamesg Maybe we need a markup language for poetry 😂
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jacky poetrylang
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jacky tbh poetry would be the most anarchistic format (have you seen Warshan Shire's work? Rupi Kaur's?)
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[campegg] poemdown? marketry?
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[campegg] PFM? (poetry-flavored markdown)
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jacky po'down (thought that might get mixed up with a sandwich)
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to2ds 😂
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aaronpk omg
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[campegg] 😆 +1 for po'down
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to2ds If we ever make it back to New Orleans, I'm ordering one of those :D
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capjamesg Also see https://www.coem-lang.org/
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capjamesg (which I love)
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capjamesg to2ds New Orleans is amazing.
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[qubyte] I’m reminded of LilyPond. https://lilypond.org
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[qubyte] coem could be embedded in markdown hehehe
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to2ds capjamesg - Indeed! 😊
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] So… tabs or spaces? _ducks_
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capjamesg throws a tab
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jacky gets hit with the <TAB> and watches 8 spaces fall to the ground
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[qubyte] Oh wow. Coem is fascinating.
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[qubyte] lol
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to2ds Ok with either as long as using VI/VIM _ducks_
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capjamesg Name for the markdown language: poemdown. It sounds like a poetry throwdown. 😄
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capjamesg [qubyte] It is! I wrote a coem at the weekend.
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capjamesg https://jamesg.blog/2024/04/01/coem/
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Loqi [preview] Writing a poem in coem
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capjamesg (I just noticed [campegg] suggested poemdown already :D)
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[qubyte] I don’t grok it just yet though…
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capjamesg [qubyte] It took me an hour to get into it.
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capjamesg It got me thinking differently about how I write poetry, which was nice.
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[qubyte] I think loqi just doesn’t like me much. No honouring my ++. No previews. :(
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capjamesg [qubyte]++
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Loqi [qubyte] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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[qubyte] I’m popular now.
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to2ds Not coem, but encapsulated marriage in a few lines of Python.
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to2ds https://toddpresta.com/mpost/1f915cac
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to2ds [qubyte]++
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Loqi [qubyte] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
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Loqi [preview] [Todd Presta] Summarizing marriage in a few lines of Python code. try: print("What do you want for dinner?") raise Exception("This will lead nowhere.") except: print("I don't know. What do you want?") finally: # Three Hours later... print("How was your c...
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capjamesg to2ds I rarely see the `finally` block in use 😄
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capjamesg By the way, if you are ever stuck for a meal idea, eat waffles.
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capjamesg You can't go wrong with waffles.
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[qubyte] waffles++
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Loqi waffles has 1 karma over the last year
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[qubyte] \o/
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to2ds 😄 The SO loves waffles!
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[qubyte] We have a waffle iron. It gets used fairly often. Need to get good maple syrup when I visit Toronto this June.
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capjamesg Optionally served with eggs and a hash brown.
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[KevinMarks] If you use mysql from node you really want a finally
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[qubyte] At least until explicit resource management makes it into V8. https://github.com/tc39/proposal-explicit-resource-management
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Loqi [preview] [tc39] proposal-explicit-resource-management: ECMAScript Explicit Resource Management
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[tantek] anyone have a (reference to a) corpus of plain text poetry/poems online? would be great for my Markdown-evisceration presentation-in-progress as well as "training" (or testing) my Markdown replacement
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[campegg] I managed to track down what was going on with my server; the cron job I use to process incoming and outgoing webmentions was hanging because of a malformed outgoing webmention. Thanks again for the pointers that got me looking in the right place, bacardi55[m]++
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[qubyte] malmention?
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capjamesg The opposite being the palmention?
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bacardi55[m] Great that you found the issue!
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[campegg] This is starting to push against my long-held—and very strong, almost visceral—dislike of portmanteaux 😉
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[qubyte] Thank you for using the correct plural.
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[qubyte] Also, my favourite word and compulsion.
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[campegg] [qubyte] if I'm going to hate on something, I'm going to do it right, lol
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capjamesg [campegg] You mean... a portmant-no?
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capjamesg 😛
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[campegg] Please, no. (Also, I think we're getting into #indieweb-chat territory here)
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capjamesg ++
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capjamesg To chat we venture!
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btrem to2ds: I can configure VS Code to not strip spaces at EOL. But I find that config useful. So I never accidentally left two spaces at the end of a line, and never discovered the markdown "feature."
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btrem bacardi55[m]: I've never needed to put a <br> in my markup. And if I did, I have my setup configured to allow html, so if I had, I would have just inserted the <br> tag.
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btrem Back to my netlify question, if that's ok: if I drag-and-drop a folder with only images into a new netlify site, will the site show the images a la apache? As folders with images in them? If not, that would explain the 404 I get when I try to view the site.
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to2ds btrem: That makes sense. My editor is a just a textarea with a little JS to resize it based on the content. Though editing on iPad it adds a period if I press two spaces so need to add one space and the revisit the line and add another 😑
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btrem That's a bit tedious. :-(
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to2ds Either that or explicitly add <br />, er uh <br> now :D
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btrem :-D
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btrem Is this your own editor? Make a "poetry" option that turns off the two spaces are a period.
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to2ds Yes. The belief was that a plain ol' HTML textarea would be amenable to Markdown without hiccups in most cases.
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to2ds It's not a big issue though, and it's more streamlined than having to chisel cuneiform into a stone just to make a micro blog post 😄
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[tantek] HTML textarea predates Markdown. Its Markdown that's not amenable to HTML textareas, not vice versa
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to2ds Indeed!
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capjamesg https://wicky.nillia.ms/cally/
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[tantek] "npm install cally" < nope nope nope
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[tantek] if it was actually "small", you could copy/paste it from a single file. "install" != "small"
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[tantek] apparent conversation enders for me (where I walk away or end up never following up): "just npm install ...", "grab some time on my calendly"
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to2ds [tantek]++ for copypasta deployment :D
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Loqi [tantek] has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (104 in all channels)
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to2ds I fall in love with a solution and then I have to NPM? 😩
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[tantek] tinbox << side project idea: go through "popular" "simple" npm packages and write-up one-file code solution alternatives that work by copypasta instead without all the ceremony/overhead/vulns of yet-another-npm dependency
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Loqi ok, I added "side project idea: go through "popular" "simple" npm packages and write-up one-file code solution alternatives that work by copypasta instead without all the ceremony/overhead/vulns of yet-another-npm dependency" to the "See Also" section of /User:Tantek.com/tinbox https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=94481&oldid=93467
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[tantek] it'll have to wait until I replace Markdown
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[tantek] first things first
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to2ds 😂
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