#dev 2024-09-02

2024-09-02 UTC
Hi and oodani joined the channel
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aaronpk
It's been almost 10 years since letsencrypt launched, why isn't this just built in to nginx at this point?
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[mattl]
because nginx has a commercial version these days and they want to make you work for the open source version
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[tantek]
yaeh sounds like a bunch of drama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nginx#2020s
thegreekgeek, trwnh, sknebel, GWG, sivoais, strikingLoo, barnaby, ttybitnik and [Murray] joined the channel
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arekenaten
Does anyone know if Web Components play nicely with micro-formats? I would assume so, but before I dive into moving away from a frontend framework to enter the indie-web I wanted to make sure 🙂
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[tantek]
Maybe too abstract a question? What problem are you trying to solve? (By moving away from a frontend framework)
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arekenaten
Admittedly, I don’t know much about what web components render down into, but I figured someone here may have experience enough to let me know if they’ve had any issues
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IWDiscord
<a​rekenaten>
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arekenaten
I’ve been lurking for a few days and had just noticed that many people are serving static content via nginx and the culture of the community seems to skew toward standard web tech instead of something like sveltekit / react / etc. I just wanted to make sure if I wasn’t happy just writing raw html without components I wouldn’t be breaking things.
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pcarrier
Well, feed readers and converters probably aren't going to interpret JavaScript
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pcarrier
So you'll want to make sure the markup provided by your server contains everything needed to extract the information without js, if you care about tooling other than browsers where JS is supported, enabled and loaded (https://indieweb.org/js;dr)
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arekenaten
This is helpful thanks 🙂 I _hope_ everything eventually renders down into static content and it’ll all be good
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pcarrier
But that doesn't mean you should handcraft static html files either. Eg server side rendering is an option for svelte/react
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pcarrier
Build time rendering, if it's an option (not too dynamic), even better for security and performance 👍
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arekenaten
Yeah. I’m pretty new to self hosting stuff and want to make sure I won’t make things too complicated for myself at first. I think svelte can interoperate pretty well with web components but again, pretty new to this side
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pcarrier
Are you more interested in static site generation or server side rendering? Got a web component technology of choice?
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pcarrier
Sveltekit can do either and even both in one project. https://kit.svelte.dev/docs/adapter-static
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arekenaten
Yeah I’ve been looking at that, but I figured it’d be closer to culture fit here for using native Web Components so assumed it would be better supported. I’m okay with being proven wrong though 🙂
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pcarrier
I don't think it matters how the markup gets made as long as it's on/before the server :)
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Loqi
pcarrier has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (15 in all channels)
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[tantek]
pcarrier++ excellent answers. No notes
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pcarrier
[tantek]: I just made https://pcarrier.com friendly to non-JS browsers after a few weeks where it was broken for them :D
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pcarrier
ah, the iframe won't load without JS. hmmm I'm on the fence about that
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pcarrier
fixed it.
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pcarrier
is there a markup language other than HTML that's friendly to the use of h-feed / h-entry? I'd like to build single-page "blogs" in eg asciidoc
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pcarrier
I guess anything is possible with asciidoctor.js (eg through 11ty). https://docs.asciidoctor.org/asciidoctor.js/latest/extend/extensions/register/
omz13-, [Murray], sivoais, ramsey, [tantek], cuibonobo, IWSlackGateway1 and dustinm` joined the channel
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[tantek]
I keep having to look up asciidoc
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[tantek]
pcarrier, if the opening sentence of the Wikipedia article is true, then it should be quite possible to add more semantics: "AsciiDoc is a human-readable document format, semantically equivalent to DocBook XML"
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[tantek]
I do like AsciiDoc's proper use of * for bold instead of italics as it is in Markdown--
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Loqi
Markdown has -5 karma in this channel over the last year (-8 in all channels)
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pcarrier
I haven't used AsciiDoc in a really long time, but I remember it quite fondly
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[tantek]
Yeah I’m going to disagree with their treatment of line breaks
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[tantek]
I feel like I need to write an ornery pedantic blog post about "the" proper way to interpret plain text line breaks
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[tantek]
Literally picking fights with the first examples on https://docs.asciidoctor.org/asciidoc/latest/syntax-quick-reference/ 🙄
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aaronpk
the trailing + is certainly a choice
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[tantek]
lol yes. It has the opposite effect of what you would think. It looks like an explicit "this line continues on the next line" but instead means "hard break" 🤣
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[tantek]
Also I would not trust having a hearing with only a starting "= " — too many false positives from many example etc which end a proof or exercise with an "= the answer" at the end
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[tantek]
math* examples. Autocorrect--
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Loqi
Autocorrect has -2 karma in this channel over the last year (-8 in all channels)
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[jacky]
open-source-micropub-implementations++
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Loqi
open-source-micropub-implementations has 1 karma over the last year
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catgirlin.space
what is there other than asciidoc and markdown? kinda maybe want to change from markdown on my website….
[qubyte], [Bruno_Pulis] and ttybitnik joined the channel
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[qubyte]
The other option is to follow in my footsteps (meaning questionable decisions) and extend markdown with custom syntax. Depending on what’s rendering your markdown this can range from pretty easy to almost impossible though.
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[qubyte]
and/or custom rendering
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Loqi
pcarrier has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (16 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d]
pcarrier++
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capjamesg[d]
I like your website layout!
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[tantek]
Extending markdown in most contexts I believe is best done with sprinkling in some HTML as needed, since many (most?) md parsers support pass-thru of HTML. I believe [KevinMarks] has some experience with this
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[jacky]
if you're looking to extend it via Markdown itself, perhaps leaning on one that conforms to https://commonmark.org/ could help (found that to be helpful for getting footnotes, pullquotes, etc) all going (from obsidian to the browser)
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[qubyte]
My understanding is that compliant ones should pass through HTML, but it’s not only about extra syntax. There’s also the rendering. Consider the pretty basic support of images. I hacked mine up a bit to support srcset.
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[qubyte]
In the end, it’s about the author. I extended markdown to suit my particular needs, and “fixed” the renderer to produce better markup.
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[jacky]
qubyte++
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Loqi
qubyte has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (10 in all channels)
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[qubyte]
I do still use HTML pass through for rare things though.
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[KevinMarks]
Have a look at babelmark for consistency issues between markdown implementations if you are moving markdown files between tools.
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[KevinMarks]
You may need to set a flag in your markdown renderer to support inline HTML as some are designed for 3rd party rather than 1st party authoring by default. I had to do this for Hugo.
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[KevinMarks]
It's usually a good idea to preserve the rendered html as well between versions - ie check in the rendered html into source control as well as markdown sources
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[qubyte]
Unfortunately said customisation means I’ve boxed myself into a corner, but at least that means I don’t need to consider differences between implementations now 😅
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[KevinMarks]
On the web components question, one approach that looks promising is what @adactio calls HTML Web Components, where the component looks at the HTML inside it (or rather the DOM at runtime) to augment the default semantic rendering with improved UI. That means that the fallback no js case is still legible in feed readers etc and the components look like extra containing divs
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[qubyte]
Is that another name for Declarative Shadow DOM, or are those distinct concepts?
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[morganm]
On Sept 5th I am now giving a 20-30 minute talk on web components, I think Ive found some good icebreaker about the fact that the word component is heavily used and a bit meaningless up front at least
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[morganm]
I might share a few snippets here for interest and feedback
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[morganm]
The main topic example is the Apple Pay Button, which is a web component, and has a bunch of features/use case observations to it about web components
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[morganm]
Trying to make it relevant and interesting for some wider folks
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[morganm]
I am familiar with his great works and have read one of those posts, Ill read the other 🙂
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[KevinMarks]
[qubyte] it's a bit like the decorator pattern in python
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[tantek]
what is a web component
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Loqi
web component is a reusable HTML element defined using the Web Components API, and created & used by IndieWeb community members on their own sites https://indieweb.org/web_component
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[tantek]
[KevinMarks] can you add those two posts as "Recommended Reading" to our wiki page ^ ?
[schmarty]1, geoffo_, JadedBlueEyes0, ancarda_, eb__, okCiel_, suki_ and schmudde1 joined the channel
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[morganm]
To try and broaden the appeal I go into a discussion about the Apple Pay Button web component. Which does a lot of heavy lifting in terms of guard rails around styling and also even including embedded license notices in JS and localization and some stuff around tokens for security I dont fully understand yet
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[morganm]
but basically if Apple if using it to brand their payment button its important and “scales” or whatever
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[morganm]
I dont know how many FTE units go into their web component but its a subject of a whole team I imagine
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[KevinMarks]
I just boarded a plane so my wiki editing will be constrained for the next 10 hours or so
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capjamesg[d]
pcarrier reported a timeout in Miniflux too.
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pcarrier
a few recently
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[tantek]
web component << Recommended reading per {{kevinmarks}}: https://adactio.com/journal/20618 https://adactio.com/journal/21078 (to do: needs article/citation templating)
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Loqi
ok, I added "Recommended reading per {{kevinmarks}}: https://adactio.com/journal/20618 https://adactio.com/journal/21078 (to do: needs article/citation templating)" to the "See Also" section of /web_component https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=96739&oldid=96676
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[morganm]
[tantek] Im trying to formulate a question. Basically, in a broad stroke, how do I explain that a bunch of web components on the page even with a lot of stuff hidden in their respective shadow doms, could have performance benefits over something like a framework which puts everything into a root element with javascript like react
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[morganm]
I want to say that but I dont know if its accurate in my talk
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[morganm]
but thats my current understanding of the benefits of in platform stuff thats registered as a custom element and reproduced, its cheaper than some component styles with react
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[tantek]
I think it's hard to demonstrate without full A/B examples and tests thereof.
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[morganm]
Right on. Ill file that idea away for another day 🙂
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[morganm]
Mainly in my talk per comments above I just discuss why the Apple Pay Button uses web component features, because they want to control the branding and behavior, and what that looks like going into the component more. I think there is a broad area to communicate how much more is possible with the platform since many last checked in on it
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[tantek]
catgirlinspace re: "what is there other than asciidoc and markdown" — many more, enjoy this rabbithole! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_markup_language
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[mattl]
We used to have so many different ones. It's rare to encounter one that's not Markdown these days.
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[0x3b0b]
I was one of those folks who got used to Textile before Markdown because of Redmine.
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[mattl]
what is redmine
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "redmine" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "redmine is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[mattl]
what is trac
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "trac" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "trac is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[mattl]
Yeah, I went from trac > Redmine. Until very recently I was admin of a Redmine install.
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pcarrier
is there a massive outage going on, or is my network just weird?
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[tantek]
haven't seen anything odd over here
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[tantek]
[mattl] I'm slowing working on a Markdown replacement (design, prototype, deployment, iteration). It has many facets. I am patiently getting each to work well before proposing an outright replacement of Markdown for anyone (else).
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pcarrier
Hmmm yeah networking stack being weird, oh well
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[qubyte]
Reading the lightweight markup article, I had to chuckle at seeing “SGML” and “lightweight” together in a sentence. Reminds me of C being a high level language, but the other way around. Also I completely forgot that I wanted to look into djot, since it appears to be how I use markdown (the regular bits that is) anyway.
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[qubyte]
I’m very interested in a well thought out replacement for all of this though. Pretty much the only thing which I’d need is extensibility, unless I got _very_ lucky and it covered it all.
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[qubyte]
I’ve toyed with the idea… Each post has front-matter, and it’d be simple to select a syntax in there. with how I have things set up.
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[qubyte]
(sorry, I mean the idea of supporting multiple markup languages)