#dev 2024-09-03

2024-09-03 UTC
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pcarrier [qubyte]: don't posts have filenames?
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[qubyte] They do, but they’re less important. This way different flavours of a markup can be supported.
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[mattl] Okay, I'm pretty happy with OmniFocus
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[qubyte] (also important because frontmatter isn’t generally supported, so in those cases the file would be `.txt`)
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[mattl] I also made a TODO item for each of my domain names... I want to at least point them somewhere useful if not being used right now.
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pcarrier 12yo archive of my blog converted to markdown, and now it's backfilled :D
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[mattl] [tantek] interesting. I fear it’ll need some markdown-alike aspects to get people to switch.
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[snarfed] forgot where I saw it, but this was a decent high-level history of the W3C Social Web working group 2014-2018 and how it ended up with the portfolio of ActivityPub, IndieWeb stack, and other standards: https://youtu.be/Pu3hGjjQzQM?feature=shared&t=5325
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[snarfed] (note the 1:28:45 start time)
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[snarfed] (and I can't personally vouch for its accuracy, I wasn't there, but it seems believable 😁)
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aaronpk i think i somehow missed that session
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[tantek] [mattl] getting people to switch is not a primary goal. I’m going to be fairly uncompromising about the design. Unlike Markdown
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[tantek] [snarfed] uh neither was the speaker 😬
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[tantek] Going to postpone watching it til tomorrow so I don't feel XKCD 386. cc: aaronpk
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[snarfed] [tantek] sure, he didn't claim to be, he evidently did a bunch of interviews
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[tantek] AFAIK he didn't reach out to anyone here
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[snarfed] ok!
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[snarfed] yeah that is surprising
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] you heard of this person or project or book? ^
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[mattl] I’m not seeing the name on the video? Who is it?
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[morganm] I was wondering if anyone would be interested in looking at a `.key` presentation about web components Im working on. Trying not to put everything into the slides but also I want it to be a resource for someone who doesnt attend the talk
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[morganm] 17 slides
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[morganm] Maybe better for random chat 🙂
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[morganm] idk im enthused and fired up 😄
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[mattl] Can look in the morning for sure if you want to post a link or mailto:mattl@cnuk.org if you want to email it.
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[morganm] Does this work? Slack upload. Happy to email also!
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[morganm] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2024/09/dev-20240903-030530-wc-talk-sept-2024-v1.key
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[mattl] Yeah that’ll work nicely for the morning
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[snarfed] [mattl] Robert Gehl, https://aoir.social/@rwg
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Loqi [preview] Robert W. Gehl
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[mattl] He follows me. I’ve seen his name somewhere.
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[tantek] [snarfed] ah I see yes you mentioned nodeinfo already
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[tantek] I'll look for that fedi info stats site
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[tantek] Unless someone here knows it offhand
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to2ds fedidb.org
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[snarfed] yes! there are a bunch. fedidb, https://fediverse.observer/ , https://fediverse.party/ , etc
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[tantek] pcarrier, you are experiencing the ActivityPub cold start problem, an unfortunate UX regression from the RSS/Atom feed publish/subscribe model to the ActivityPub follow/deliver model.
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[tantek] huh, web searching for ActivityPub cold start problem doesn't find anything relevant. maybe time to write specifically about this?
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[tantek] I mentioned the problem briefly here without naming it and am kinda surprised no one has blogged about it? https://tantek.com/2022/301/t1/twittermigration-bridgyfed-mastodon-indieweb
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] #TwitterMigration, first time? Have posted notes to https://tantek.com/ since 2010, POSSEd tweets & #AtomFeed. Added one .htaccess line today, and thanks to #BridgyFed, #Mastodon users can follow my #IndieWeb site @tantek.com No Mastodon install...
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to2ds [snarfed]++ Cool! Couldn't remember the others.
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Loqi [snarfed] has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (101 in all channels)
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pcarrier [tantek]: yeah I'm familiar, but I got a post from a week ago and 2 super recent posts, nothing in between?
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pcarrier [tantek]: I'm alone on my server, all starts are cold :)
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[tantek] pcarrier, so you got a post from a week ago, BEFORE you started following me?
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[tantek] trying to confirm the behavior you are seeing before attempting more experiments
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[tantek] because if that's true, then I should be able to push updates to all the posts in between and you should receive them. if not then Bridgy Fed is not delivering them to you for some reason which means we can once again look at Bridgy Fed to try to figure out what is going wrong
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pcarrier [tantek]: I can't tell for sure, for all I know someone boosted it and I received it?
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[tantek] it would be very odd (but not impossible) that both Mastodon and Gotosocial would have the same 'drop it on the floor' behavior
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pcarrier [tantek]: can you try to repost something that didn't get through as I watch logs?
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pcarrier also anybody's guess why music files keep pausing on https://nothing.pcarrier.com/posts/tunes/ ? it could be a bad server behaviour. they were produced with `oggenc` so prooobably not the files themselves.
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[mattl] The files are Ogg Vorbis?
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pcarrier yes.
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pcarrier I tried flac too, same behaviour.
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[tantek] pcarrier, will do
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[mattl] Which browsers support those now? Just Firefox?
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[tantek] ah was in the middle of fixing a weird UTF8 / mojibake bug
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pcarrier [mattl]: everything. https://caniuse.com/ogg-vorbis
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pcarrier ah no, safari apparently doesnt' support vorbis, I guess I need to mkvmerge -w to make webm :D
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[mattl] Yeah, I was gonna say… AFAIK, Apple has never supported it although we did find a hidden icon in iTunes for it at one point.
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pcarrier in which case, I might as well use opus
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[mattl] Yeah, opus in a WebM container.
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[mattl] I wish this was easier. It’s still better than “Just embed a RealAudio file inside a spiders nest of broken HTML” I suppose.
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pcarrier sorry doesnt' support ogg containers. it does support vorbis, not ogg.
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pcarrier ha ha made webm, it's a disaster
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[tantek] ducked the weird UTF8 / mojibake bug with a content edit for now, will fix actual bug later
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pcarrier that's gonna end in m4a.
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[schmarty] pcarrier: i would like to know more about "disaster" 😂
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pcarrier [schmarty]: try playing https://nothing.pcarrier.com/assets/music/t01.webm in safari
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[schmarty] oh, i don't have a mac handy 😅
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pcarrier [schmarty]: it's supposed to sound like https://nothing.pcarrier.com/assets/music/t01.flac
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[mattl] Hang on, let me plug in some headphones
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[schmarty] some crunchy bleeps and bloops in there
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[mattl] [Pierre_Carrier] https://nothing.pcarrier.com/assets/music/t01.webm works in Safari 🙂
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pcarrier t04-t06 aren't gameboy
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pcarrier [mattl]: no, it doesn't work. it plays… something
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pcarrier [mattl]: gave you the flac for comparison :)
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[mattl] Oh weird. That’s Opus in WebM, or Vorbis in WebM?
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pcarrier opus.
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[mattl] Hm, want to try Vorbis?
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pcarrier at this point sure
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pcarrier for f in *.ogg; mkvmerge -w -o (echo $f|sed s/ogg/webm/) $f; end
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pcarrier deployed
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pcarrier straight up silent.
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pcarrier well, aac in mpeg4 it is
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[tantek] pcarrier I just tried updating (reposting?) https://tantek.com/2024/245/t1/read-write-suggest-edit-web via Bridgy Fed and so watch your logs to see if you see anything!
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pcarrier works perfectly in Safari
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] ✏️ I want the Read Write Suggest-Edit Accept-Edit Update Web. The consumer Infinite Scroll Web leaves us feeling empty. Too few of us participate in the Read Write Web, whether with personal sites or Wikipedia. A week ago when we wrapped up #I...
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pcarrier [tantek]: nothing in > journalctl -u gotosocial --since '10 min ago'|grep -iE 'tantek|brid'
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pcarrier works perfectly in Chrome. seeking is instantaneous, no pauses, brilliant. AAC in MPEG4. dang it.
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[tantek] pcarrier, give it a minute, Bridgy Fed is still delivering to instances
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pcarrier Sep 03 20:05:24 horse gotosocial[2938648]: timestamp="03/09/2024 20:05:24.949" func=server.init.func1.Logger.14.1 level=INFO latency=28.139972ms userAgent="Bridgy Fed (https://fed.brid.gy/)" method=POST statusCode=202 path=/users/pc/inbox clientIP=34.44.108.153 pubKeyID=https://fed.brid.gy/tantek.com#key requestID=77sqvech04000bhbb9m0 msg="Accepted: wrote 45B"
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pcarrier [tantek]: "✏️ I want the Read Write Suggest-Edit Accept-Edit Update Web." I already had though?
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[tantek] you did?
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[tantek] what's the immediate previous post from that that you have?
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pcarrier [18:39:12] <pcarrier> hmmm if I hit "toots and replies" in semaphore.social (my client) it also shows "✏️ I want the Read Write Suggest-Edit Accept-Edit Update Web."
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pcarrier [18:41:16] <pcarrier> and if I hit "load more" I get "All setup here at IndieWebCamp Portland!"
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pcarrier [18:41:45] <pcarrier> nothing in-between
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pcarrier still the same
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[tantek] ok there's plenty missing between those two
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pcarrier I figured
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[tantek] so I'll update the next previous post and see what happens
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pcarrier I'll keep watching logs :)
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[snarfed] if you update a post pcarrier's instance doesn't have, BF will send an Update, but without a previous Create, I doubt it will do anything
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[tantek] what should it doe?
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[tantek] do?
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[tantek] pcarrier, just updated https://tantek.com/2024/242/t1/indiewebcamp-portland which Bridgy Fed will be sending Updates for over the next few minutes
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] Had a great time at IndieWebCamp Portland 2024 this past Sunday — our 10th IndieWebCamp in Portland! https://events.indieweb.org/2024/08/indiewebcamp-portland-2024-8bucXDlLqR0k Being a one day #IndieWebCamp, we focused more on making, hacking, an...
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[tantek] let's see if that shows up in your feed
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[snarfed] re what it _should_ do, I think doing nothing is correct, esp since AP supports partial updates, so the receiving instance can't assume the received object in the update is complete. https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#update-activity-outbox
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[snarfed] anyway, we're off on a tangent away from the original Mastodon problem. (which is ok!)
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pcarrier [snarfed]: https://gist.github.com/pcarrier/f731c402faa65f174f327cc1cd1111f6
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pcarrier any idea what this means?
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[tantek] well, we're trying to see if other implementations do anything with Updates that Mastodon does not
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[tantek] [snarfed] still not clear if this is a BF/protocol usage problem (undocumented detail that Mastodon assumes), or an actual Mastodon bug
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[tantek] as in, even if Mastodon is returning a 202 and dropping a post on the floor, maybe that's considered "ok" behavior if there was something "wrong" (undefined) in the post?
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[tantek] or at least an opportunity to code something differently in BF to work around a Mastodon quirk 😕
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[snarfed] yeah, again, 202 and then failing later in the background is standard practice in most fediverse servers
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pcarrier yeah that's what 202 is for right?
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[snarfed] definitely makes interop testing and development more difficult
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[snarfed] yup! (and again, the webmention spec itself says to do the same thing)
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[snarfed] pcarrier that looks like https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/1033
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jimw Not really any different than SMTP servers that accept an email and just drop it later because they decide it's spam.
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[snarfed] gotosocial is expecting/assuming the hostname of an AP actor id to match the host part of its webfinger address, which isn't always true
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Loqi [preview] [kvibber] #1033 Can't follow Bluesky bridge from GoToSocial
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to2ds Instead of 202 Accepted, maybe 202 Procrastinating?
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aaronpk 202 I'm Thinking About It
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jimw 202 Yeah, sure, whatever.
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to2ds aaronpk++ :D
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Loqi aaronpk has 49 karma in this channel over the last year (140 in all channels)
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pcarrier "The actual processing of the request is not guaranteed; a task or action may fail or be disallowed when a server tries to process it." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Status/202
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[tantek] 202 Maybe Eventually
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[tantek] pcarrier, updates delivered for my post starting with "Had a great time at IndieWebCamp Portland 2024" — do you see it on your instance?
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[tantek] or anything in your logs?
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pcarrier nothing with tantek or brid in logs
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[mattl] 202 Definitely Maybe?
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pcarrier https://srv.us/epxi57hpyoa7khzaa4uv5yqtttkucrnt
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pcarrier [tantek]: you tell me :)
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pcarrier seems to me like it worked
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[tantek] pcarrier you got it!
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pcarrier that 100% wasn't there yesterday
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[tantek] [snarfed] ok, there's a strong data point for you. Apparently when I update my posts, NEW Gotosocial followers DO see them
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[tantek] as in they get backfilled in the profile timeline as viewed on Gotosocial
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pcarrier [tantek]: it's worth noting I've set ridiculous limits on my instance
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pcarrier like, I can post 999999 characters
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pcarrier (having moved back to IRC, love that I can upload any file to srv.us with curl --data-binary @file https://srv.us. it only works because it's not abused.)
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[tantek] ok pcarrier, now you're only missing one post in between.
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pcarrier [tantek]: wanna keep'em coming? I can be around for another half hour
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[tantek] oops I mistakenly linked [KevinMarks] @-mention in that missing post to the XOXO clothing brand instead of the festival, so I have an actual content bug to fix and send updates for it 😂
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[tantek] yes, one moment
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[snarfed] fascinating that GotoSocial does that! and arguably dangerous, given partial updates. but ok!
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to2ds 202 Your message is important to us! All available queues are busy at this time. Please wait for the next available queue. (switches to music on hold)
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[tantek] [snarfed] seem Bridgy Fed sends full (not partial) updates so that's ok?
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[tantek] Also maybe GoToSocial treats partial updates like thin pings and then goes to retrieve the full post on its own?
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SyniToxi top
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[snarfed] maybe! good if so, definitely better than blindly applying the Update's object
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to2ds Partial updates only change specific attributes in the object?
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[snarfed] right
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[tantek] ok pcarrier, reload and see if you see https://tantek.com/2024/238/t3/indiewebcamp-auto-linking
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] Nice #IndieWebCamp discussion session with @KevinMarks.com (@kevinmarks@indieweb.social @kevinmarks@xoxo.zone @kevinmarks) on the topic of auto-linking¹. I’ve implemented an auto_link function² that handles quite a few use-cases of URLs (with or...
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pcarrier [tantek]: https://srv.us/2pb4vkt5yzqbugnl2crpsljpjee534bj
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pcarrier 5 toots now :)
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[KevinMarks] I spent ages at Apple circa 2000 trying to get permission to ship Ogg and Vorbis support, but my VP was scared of submarine patent lawsuits from Dolby or Fraunhofer
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[KevinMarks] On the posts question, xoxo.zone shows the most recent post and the setting up one
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[KevinMarks] Indieweb.social ditto - you could as Annika or Tim to check logs
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[tantek] pcarrier, odd, still missing that latest one (post starts with "Nice #IndieWebCamp discussion session"). try reloading?
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[KevinMarks] That's me looking via phanpy.social mind
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] yeah, xoxo indieweb w3c mastodon .social all show only the most recent "complaint" post and the setting up one. I covered that in that very same "complaint" post
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[KevinMarks] Directly logging into xoxo.zone is the same
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pcarrier [tantek]: shows up? https://srv.us/4rw5pjik74s2icbggltgcyfd3suqdrwu
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[tantek] pcarrier yeah! it showed up then! just not in the prior screenshot. interesting!
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[tantek] snarfed, this "feels" a lot like the bug with new hashtags in updates being ignored (dropped on the floor) by Mastodon
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[snarfed] yes!
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[tantek] ugh now I don't know what to try again besides reposting shorter versions of the posts missing from Mastodon and have each link back to the original
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[tantek] maybe first I will try shorter posts with fewer URLs but all the same hashtags to see if number of hashtags a factor
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pcarrier oooh that's totally a thing
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pcarrier I remember that
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[tantek] wait what's a thing?
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pcarrier no, I remember somebody building "block >n hashtags automatically" into a fediverse client, sorry
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pcarrier not mastodon itself
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[tantek] that would be worth documenting
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pcarrier IDK if I can still access this convo, it happened before I migrated my account to my own server
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pcarrier got it! completely useless to this convo sorry. @jraedisch@mastodon.social: "@pcarrier that‘s valuable info. I might integrate that into my app’s filters. Will ping you here when ready, in case you’re interested in testing. Right now I am doing stuff like filter more than 3 hashtags and show only one status per user account in 300."
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pcarrier on that note, sounds like gotosocial is better behaved than some mastodon instances when it comes to very large posts, and we don't know much more, right? is there evidence of some servers being better behaved than others?
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[tantek] Gotosocial is more robust when it comes to receiving Updates than Mastodon, which drops them on the floor, or ignores new hashtags
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[tantek] more tests coming
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[mattl] Is that true of even a single user Mastodon install?
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[tantek] probably
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pcarrier I was thinking, we can create test acccounts on rrier.fr, and I can provision a mastodon for rrier.ca
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pcarrier see what happens with very large posts across both
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pcarrier not tonight though
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[KevinMarks] There was an issue to add OpenTelemetry to Mastodon, which would help with this kind of issue where you have to trace an id through multiple services
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pcarrier side question, neither Tusky on Android not Semaphore.social let me edit my posts. They both only offer me to delete and repost. Is there a client that supports updates? Does gotosocial?
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pcarrier I'm 100% that person who updates multiple times after posting if I have the chance.
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[KevinMarks] https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/20339
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Loqi [preview] [cartermp] #20339 Consider adopting tracing with OpenTelemetry
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[KevinMarks] Phanpy.social supports editing posts
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pcarrier **STATUS EDITS ARE NOT CURRENTLY SUPPORTED IN GOTOSOCIAL (coming in 2024)**
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pcarrier this settles that :)
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[mattl] but it is 2024
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[mattl] so that might be already there and they forgot to update the page?
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[KevinMarks] Looks like OpenTelemetry got merged https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/30130
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pcarrier no [mattl], still unchecked @ https://github.com/superseriousbusiness/gotosocial/blob/main/ROADMAP.md
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Loqi [preview] [renchap] #30130 Add OpenTelemetry instrumentation
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[KevinMarks] If you're going to run a mastodon instance to track what happens with updates or long Posts, using OT with http://honeycomb.io would be a good way to do it
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pcarrier [KevinMarks]: you don't expect those types of failures / rejections would be logged?
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pcarrier because based on the size of that PR, they have _some_ opentelemetry, they certainly haven't instrumented much
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[KevinMarks] Some of the honeycomb tooling will log all requests and attribute the call chain and give a good ui for understanding the traces (I've used it in node rather than Ruby)
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[tantek] who was talking about their desire for noting/marking-up "asides" here recently? I searched and couldn't find it but I'm fairly certain someone was talking about how they either want or use Markdown with some extension for marking up "asides"
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[tantek] no this is separate from the sidenote/marginalia discussion
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[tantek] one idea I had (and seems to match my existing publishing behavior) is that a sentence starting with "Aside: " is essentially the plain text "mark up" without any junk/noisy punctuation
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[tantek] if it's the first sentence in a paragraph, then the entire paragraph is marked up as an `<aside>`
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[tantek] otherwise ("Aside: " at start of a sentence that is not the first sentence in a paragraph) only that sentence is marked up as an `<aside>`
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[tantek] This seems "good enough" to start with or at least capture as an idea
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[tantek] Still lacks the ability to indicate a multi-paragraph aside but maybe that's ok?
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[tantek] paragraph boundary here is with an explicit blank line, that is, double line-break before and after if there's other content before or after, respectively
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