#dev 2024-09-09

2024-09-09 UTC
#
[snarfed] hey [manton] just FYI I'm seeing an AP incompatibility btw http://micro.blog and Bridgy Fed
#
[snarfed] cc starrwulfe
#
[snarfed] so, BF fetches actor id https://abc.starrwulfe.xyz/activitypub/starrwulfe with Accept: application/activity+json, application/ld+json; profile="https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", text/html; charset=utf-8; q=0.5
#
[snarfed] response is 302 with Location https://micro.blog/starrwulfe?remote_follow=1
#
[snarfed] when BF requests that with the same Accept header, it gets back text/html
#
[snarfed] looks like a conneg parsing issue? trying to remember if I've reported this before 😆. when I fetch with just Accept: application/activity+json, I get back AS2 ok
#
[snarfed] conneg--
#
Loqi conneg has -19 karma in this channel over the last year (-21 in all channels)
#
[tantek] conneg--
#
Loqi conneg has -20 karma in this channel over the last year (-22 in all channels)
[manton] joined the channel
#
[manton] [snarfed] Thanks, looking… Did you change the Accept header recently? I think it’s confused because the HTML is q=0.5 but the ActivityPub doesn’t have a weight.
#
[manton] conneg--
#
Loqi conneg has -21 karma in this channel over the last year (-23 in all channels)
#
[manton] My parsing is really bad. I think I see the fix, will roll it out soon.
#
[manton] (I was assuming the default q should be 0.0, not 1.0.)
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds conneg-- Just for dramatic effect :D
#
Loqi conneg has -22 karma in this channel over the last year (-24 in all channels)
#
[snarfed] nah that's been the header for a pretty long time
#
[snarfed] conneg-- sorry for the trouble [manton]!
#
[tantek] we've got to figure out HTML discovery ways to route around all the problems with conneg--
[schmarty]1 and Dryusdan joined the channel
#
[snarfed] any opinions on whether it makes sense for Bridgy Fed user pages to have rel=me on their links to users' web sites, fediverse profiles, etc?
#
[snarfed] I'm getting lectured on rel=me in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/1309 right now , and this is being advocated, but I'm not convinced, since BF isn't a separate account
#
Loqi [preview] [hollowaykeanho] #1309 Add 'rel=me' for Mastodon Bridge Automatic Verification
#
[tantek] your analysis seems correct to me [snarfed]. I'm not seeing it being necessary/desired or helpful.
#
[snarfed] 👍
#
[snarfed] unrelated, just saw HTTP 525 just now, evidently a CloudFlare custom status for upstream SSL handshake failed, I guess a more-specific version of 502. https://http.cat/status/525
#
[tantek] I could see an argument being made to add rel=me on https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com to the links to my website, as a discovery pathway, but I'm unsure of the use-case
#
[snarfed] same
#
[tantek] and wow this is interesting! https://bsky.app/profile/tantek.com.web.brid.gy
#
[snarfed] I kinda hope BF user pages aren't passed around or used for much of anything externally, only by individual users for their own use, eg as an activity dashboard when they want to check or debug something
#
[tantek] like did that get created because someone on Bluesky wanted to follow my website via Bridgy Fed?!?
#
[snarfed] yes!
#
[snarfed] lmk if you don't want it 😁
#
[tantek] no it's fine, having been following the evolution of BF bridges for a while. was just a little "surprised" since it showed up there without me explicitly creating it
#
[snarfed] yeah it's a very reasonable reaction
#
[tantek] it could be presented slightly differently to avoid that kind of confusion. the feeling of "wait, when did I make this?" "oh I didn't make this, how did it get here?"
#
[tantek] speaking of UI (mis)interpretations
#
[tantek] part of the rel=me feature request / confusion may be coming from the fact that in the BF UI there's a link called "Profile" where clicking on it leads to your page like https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com
#
[tantek] and when you're on that page the "Profile" tab is selected
#
[snarfed] for sites without the BF redirects, it shows a [bridged by Bridgy Fed ...] in the profile bio, with links
#
[tantek] and we tell everyone that their social media "profile" should link to their home page with rel=me, so...
#
[snarfed] I omit that if you've set up the redirects since that's an explicit opt into BF
#
[tantek] yes that makes sense
#
[snarfed] example: https://bsky.app/profile/nature.com.web.brid.gy
#
[tantek] I mean on the BF "Profile" page, it could be better represented as "Bridgy Fed Created this for you, for your Bluesky followers!"
#
[tantek] or something like that
#
[snarfed] yes! it does that on non-opted-in user pages, eg https://fed.brid.gy/web/nature.com
#
[tantek] like turn it around from "surprise! where did this come from?" to "Wow! That's amazing that Bridgy Fed automatically allow Bluesky folks to follow me!!!"
#
[tantek] right that's a zero opted-in user page
#
[snarfed] yeah people like you who set up BF redirects for their site before I added Bluesky support are a bit of a special case
#
[tantek] in my case, it was still a surprise from going from "setup Mastodon" to "BF automatically created a Bluesky synthetic profile"
#
[snarfed] I don't have a custom banner for them yet. you're right that it'd be nice!
#
[tantek] not a banner per se
#
[snarfed] sure, you know what I mean
#
[tantek] but rather maybe the "auto-created profiles" on a separate line or column to the side?
#
[tantek] "Bridgy Fed Created Profiles for other networks"
#
[tantek] or something like that
#
[tantek] because presumably that list could grow
#
[tantek] e.g. with BF support of Nostr or whatever comes next
#
[tantek] anyway it was just odd/jarring to see it in the same line as my personal site URL
#
[snarfed] totally! understood
#
[snarfed] yeah, on user pages like https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com, the first one in bigger font is the "source" account, the rest are the generated/bridged accounts
#
[snarfed] I could definitely make that more explicit
#
[snarfed] the hover text for each one of them is explicit, but that's a bit hidden
Kodiak joined the channel
#
[snarfed] trying to balance the UI tension of communicating enough but not so much that it's confusing or overly busy
#
[snarfed] I'm not the best designer 😁
#
[tantek] the distinction that still makes sense to me to separate them is that even something like "@tantek.com@tantek.com" is fully composed of my own domain, that I fully control by virtue of that
#
[tantek] while " http://tantek.com.web.brid.gy" looks like something I don't own or control
#
[snarfed] hmm, I guess
#
[tantek] even the hover text doesn't make that distinction
#
[tantek] also re: "UI tension of communicating enough but not so much that it's confusing or overly busy" <-- I greatly sympathize
#
[snarfed] you have the same amount of control over both, the only difference is the vanity domain in the fediverse address, which I don't yet support for Bluesky, but plan too
#
[tantek] right, the "vanity domain" aspect of it makes it feel like it is more than just vanity, but less control
#
[tantek] Does https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com/followers show Bluesky followers or only Mastodon/AP followers?
#
[snarfed] both
#
[tantek] if you can point me to the source file for the "Profile", I can try to take a crack at design tweaking to better communicate the distinctions
#
[snarfed] hmm maybe!
#
[snarfed] you didn't have any Bluesky followers before, but now you have one 😁
#
[tantek] lol
#
[tantek] wait if I don't have any followers, how did it get https://bsky.app/profile/tantek.com.web.brid.gy get created?!? does BF create them automatically for anyone who setup BF/AP bridging so that folks in Bluesky can "discover" us?
#
[tantek] didn't*
#
[tantek] BridgyFed++ btw to be clear this is very cool from my perspective. Things "just working" even if sometimes surprisingly
#
Loqi BridgyFed has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
#
[tantek] also curious how BF is holding up with presumably the influx of Brazilian Bluesky users
#
[tantek] ok that is very cool that https://fed.brid.gy/web/tantek.com/followers shows your *aggregated* followers across networks. amazing
#
[tantek] re: "vanity domain in the fediverse address, which I don't yet support for Bluesky, but plan too" — is there an open issue on this? would love to help try it out
#
[tantek] I'm presuming for now I should NOT setup my own http://tantek.com identity on Bluesky independently because then I'll have two Bluesky "profiles"
#
Loqi [preview] Tantek Çelik
#
[snarfed] yeah the issue is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/826
#
Loqi [preview] [jfietkau] #826 AP => ATProto: Support custom handle domains for bridged accounts
#
[snarfed] yeah you'd have two Bluesky profiles then. which you can do if you want!
#
catgirlin.space reading issue #1309 linked above and i just, do not understand their point at all....
#
catgirlin.space also in the last screenshot it says "ferdiverse" and like, ??? you're already there? huh...
#
[snarfed] Bluesky usage increase was massive, and tough, BF's processing for Bluesky => other networks was massively delayed for a bit, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/1295
#
[snarfed] check out the traffic graphs there, it was stunning
#
Loqi [preview] [only-su] #1295 Bluesky = fediverse: can't yet handle load from influx of new Brazilian users
#
[snarfed] http://catgirlin.space exactly! they continue to lecture me on rel=me: "This mechanism is meant for relationship validation, not origin source validation." um...?!
#
Loqi [preview] rosalina saige
#
catgirlin.space yeah lol, dont understand their point...
#
aaronpk whoa
#
[snarfed] I think I get their point, they want a green check on their BF user page link
#
catgirlin.space hi aaron
#
[snarfed] I just think the BF link probably shouldn't be there at all
#
aaronpk that's a lot of traffic
#
catgirlin.space [snarfed]: why are they linking to their BF profile though??
#
[snarfed] aaronpk srsly. they added 3M new users in just a few days, onto a base of 1-1.5M MAU
#
[snarfed] and 10-20x usage increase! (ie, raw events/s on the network.) stunning
#
[snarfed] even more stunning, they're mostly self hosted, all of the scaling sensitive tiers are literally their own hardware in colos, peered directly with backbone providers
#
[snarfed] ...and they held up
#
[snarfed] hell of an eng accomplishment
#
[snarfed] http://catgirlin.space exactly. no clue
#
Loqi [preview] rosalina saige
#
aaronpk the cloud was a lie all along
#
catgirlin.space unrelated but does the slack->irc bridge convert things that look like domains into links?
#
aaronpk i think that's slack itself doing it
#
catgirlin.space because anytime i get mentioned its a link in discord and loqi has a preview
#
catgirlin.space i opened slack just to check and it doesnt show as a link there....
#
aaronpk hmm
#
[0x3b0b] Well, to me, you show up as IWDiscord talking, and with the lines prefixed with "<catgirlin.space>" so I know who's actually saying things, with "atgirlin.space" being a link to "http://atgirlin.space", so...I'm no help
#
catgirlin.space weird that IWDiscord shows up anywhere :( both chat.indieweb.org and slack just show me as catgirlin.space.......
#
aaronpk IWDiscord shows up in irc, only for some discord users
#
catgirlin.space hm, why only some?
#
[0x3b0b] And I'm bridged to IRC from my Matrix homeserver, so I get the extra screwiness
#
aaronpk theres a limit to the number of bots i can connect individually to irc
#
[0x3b0b] [snarfed]: Would someone who wanted to follow that Holloway person from bsky need that profile they are linking to, or the js;dr "bsky.app" link that appears when I go look at the bridgy fed page?
#
catgirlin.space ohh
#
aaronpk i don't like a lot of the things about how the discord bridge works, but I didn't write it, and I'm not very fluent in go, so my ability to make changes is limited
#
[tantek] AFAIK we may be the only community that has so much bridging in so many senses, like frankly even more than Matrix 😂
#
[tantek] if [snarfed] ever decides to add IRC to Bridgy Fed and "cross the streams" as it were (pun intended) then we're in trouble
#
aaronpk haha
#
[tantek] like that's just going to hurt my brain
#
aaronpk i remember using a twitter-irc bridge a long time ago
#
aaronpk twitter users looked like IRC users
#
[0x3b0b] Maybe. I wouldn't count on it. I imagine there's probably some community out there using Matterbridge or something that's got more chats bridged than we do. I might be at least somewhat surprised if there's such a community that's _bigger_ than we are.
#
gRegor And Twitter on AIM was fun (early days)
#
[tantek] I mean technically http://chat.indieweb.org has an h-feed with h-entry items so this might already be possible to setup if someone tries to "follow" http://chat.indieweb.org from Mastodon or Bluesky
#
aaronpk oh no
#
[snarfed] oh god no
#
[snarfed] chat is not social networking
#
[snarfed] I will die on this hill
#
catgirlin.space bridgy fed wont look it up because no h-card :(
#
[tantek] phew
#
aaronpk lol +1 [snarfed]
#
[tantek] otherwise I was expecting https://fed.brid.gy/web/chat.indieweb.org might actually show something 😂
#
[0x3b0b] I will agree with you that chat is not in the same category as the things Bridgy Fed bridges. I will not agree with you semantically that the term "social networking" unquestionably should not include both.
#
[tantek] given that Twitter was bridged with XMPP pretty early on, and it made for a very nice UX in Adium, I wouldn't discount the possibility of this happening
#
[snarfed] my semantic opinion is the right semantic opinion 🤣
#
[snarfed] (kidding!)
#
[tantek] reading twitter and posting to it via my BlackBerry XMPP client was amazingly efficient and focused, and super easy to catch-up / keep-up with, in late 2006 / early 2007
#
[snarfed] 0x3b0b someone on bsky just needs their http://bsky.app profile link. or they can even search for their fediverse profile url or address in bsky, eg https://bsky.app/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmastodon.online%2F%40hollowaykeanho , that will also find them
#
[tantek] like way easier than any "native" or even web client. it was so darn fast
#
aaronpk one reason i feel this way is that i'm pretty much burnt out on social media of all forms, but I still do chat a lot
#
[tantek] aaronpk, I'm roughly there too, with the exception of Swarm & Strava, if you count those as social media. very occasional story posts on IG. and watching some folks's stories (have muted a lot and blocked hundreds of org / ad accounts)
#
[0x3b0b] Thanks for clarifying, and I see you explained that on the issue already. That shoots down the one reason I could think of why one might want to show the fed link instead of the bsky link...
#
[tantek] Twitter POSSE I've decided to treat as write-only, and then only a subset of my posts, those having to do with IndieWeb positive things, just to keep seeding Twitter (and people that use it) with repeated reminders that a better way is possible
#
[tantek] [snarfed]++ for this pithy sentence "That's equivalent to a GPG signature, with the added benefit that it's simpler and part of the HTTP fetches you're already doing, not a separate, out of band process.)" in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/1309#issuecomment-2337040973
#
Loqi [preview] [snarfed] (Also, rel=me doesn't just represent a relationship with a linked profile, it represents that you _are_ that linked profile. Specifically, the microformats community recommends [bidirectional rel=me verification](https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me#...
#
gRegor I don't understand why that person wants to link to the fed.brid.gy page
#
[tantek] I think it may be a form of UI pokemoning. wanting to list all the things in their profile
#
[snarfed] that sounds right
#
[snarfed] lol their latest reply: "Be very careful what you're about to reply here because if you do not honor what you stated, you're admitting identity impersonation for all the bridge users. This is includes user outside of Mastodon (but first detected by Mastodon)."
#
aaronpk gotta catch em all
#
[snarfed] I give up
#
[tantek] sheesh that does not seem in good faith
#
[tantek] also, I'm curious about their success rate at using threats in open source projects to get work done
#
[snarfed] 😆
#
[snarfed] I have to admit though, at this point I'm kind of having fun. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/1309#issuecomment-2337061369
#
Loqi [preview] [snarfed] > Be very careful what you're about to reply here because if you do not honor what you stated, you're admitting identity impersonation for all the bridged users. This is includes user outside of Mastodon (but first detected by Mastodon). I may not...
#
[snarfed] ...but that probably means I should sign off for the night
thegreekgeek_ joined the channel
#
[0x3b0b] So after further reflection...I don't know how _viable_ it is, but I can kind of understand why someone would want to be able to link their bridged Bluesky from their Fediverse profile and have it show as green. However, the screenshot showing a link to the bridgy fed profile and labeling it "Fediverse" from the Mastodon profile...that seems like a weird way to label it just as much as it seems weird to link to the bridgy fed profile in the first...
#
[0x3b0b] ... place. Maybe it's too late at night for me too.
#
[snarfed] 0x3b0b yes! to bridged b
#
[snarfed] er, to bridged Bluesky, directly, yes
#
catgirlin.space [snarfed] https://fed.brid.gy/docs#replies doesn't link to a header, seems to just be missing completely?
#
[snarfed] thanks for the catch!
stella, ttybitnik and jan6 joined the channel
#
pcarrier firefox and safari seem to pick images too wide in my srcset, vs chromium. non-retina display, macOS. any idea what could be happening? easy to observe on the images of eg https://nothing.pcarrier.com/posts/picopresso/
#
pcarrier eg displayed as ~800px wide, chromium picks 1024w as it should, safari picks 2048w, and firefox 4096w(!!)
claudinec and to2ds joined the channel
#
[manton] [snarfed] Thanks again for the conneg bug report… I’ve rolled out a fix this morning.
AramZS joined the channel
#
[snarfed] [manton] thank you for the fix!
#
[manton] I still have one more content negotiation issue to tackle… Returning ActivityStreams for permalink web pages. I’ve been dragging my feet because I don’t think the internet should work that way. 🙂
#
[manton] (And because architecturally it’s a little tricky with how http://Micro.blog publishes static HTML.)
#
[snarfed] conneg-- yup
#
Loqi conneg has -23 karma in this channel over the last year (-25 in all channels)
jonnybarnes joined the channel
#
jonnybarnes oooh, its working snarfed
#
jonnybarnes I think its cos I updated my Bluesky handle to be my domain
#
jonnybarnes but the handle is not @jonnybarnes.uk, its just jonnybarnes.uk
#
[mattl]2 I think all handles on bluesky start with @
#
[tantek] all "handles" now start with @ regardless of system. that's the default UX we all live in now and we can expect any new systems to be designed with.
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds conneg-- has had a few rough days here :)
#
Loqi conneg has -24 karma in this channel over the last year (-26 in all channels)
#
[KevinMarks] not as rough as the time conneg-- has given to people here though
#
[tantek] conneg-- because it was originally part of an attempt to migrate the web to RDF and now it's being (ab)used to migrate some functionality to a JSONweb--
#
Loqi conneg has -25 karma in this channel over the last year (-27 in all channels)
#
Loqi JSONweb has -1 karma over the last year
#
pcarrier what's wrong with JSON on the web? 😭
#
catgirlin.space i love json because the langauge i use doesnt have any html stuff....
#
[schmarty] it's a semantics discussion but basically user-agents (web browsers) cannot meaningfully present JSON to their user, so JSON is for machine-to-machine communication and therefore not "web-like".
#
[schmarty] yes JSON is served via URLs over HTTP, but this kind of boils down to an argument over what "web" means.
#
superkuh json is the primary way mastodon provides for browser that don't run javascript to view content. I've gotten used to it (and looking at meta-content headers) but it is pretty terrible.
#
[schmarty] i would argue that mastodon doesn't provide JSON "for the browser". it's for programs to read, either on the server, or Javascript that happens to be running in the browser.
#
pcarrier OK sure. I like JS-enabled WebApps, which tend to request information over HTTP that doesn't have a nice direct representation. To me that activity is still part of the web.
#
pcarrier "Web passkeys" use JSON and CBOR which isn't even text
#
[schmarty] "web passkeys" also require support inside the user-agent (the browser)
#
pcarrier Yes, through a JS API, same as JSON?
gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
to2ds I like the way desktop FF renders JSON.
#
[schmarty] my point is that what "is web" and "is not web" is a bunch of messy semantic arguments. and personally i think it's so muddied with personal preference that it's not very useful to argue over.
#
[schmarty] (but it can be a great way to indicate in-groups and out-groups lol)
#
pcarrier OK. my intuition is "the stuff I access through a web browser", I must not be very in 🥸
#
[schmarty] pcarrier: many would agree with that intuition. and there are many more interpretations! here's one! https://indieweb.org/curlability
#
[schmarty] ah, we might want to condense that with https://indieweb.org/curlable
#
pcarrier The web wouldn't be multimedia by that definition, so I really don't care for it.
#
[schmarty] i'm not sure i follow. media referenced in img, audio, and video elements in HTML should all be accessible by curl as well.
#
[snarfed] file formats, and whether they're human-oriented or not, are a good topic! but imho fairly separate from conneg
#
[snarfed] we could easily keep all these formats and their interchange use cases, give each their own unique URLs, and avoid all the conneg problems
#
[schmarty] snarfed++ good points! conneg--
#
Loqi conneg has -26 karma in this channel over the last year (-28 in all channels)
#
Loqi snarfed has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (101 in all channels)
#
to2ds Just rewrote my AP experiment to do away with conneg--
#
pcarrier [schmarty]: so can js. But the definition of curlable is that you get html back.
#
to2ds Hmm. You can't end a chat line with a karmasitional phrase? 🤔
#
pcarrier But yes conneg--
#
Loqi conneg has -27 karma in this channel over the last year (-29 in all channels)
#
gRegor I think /curlability is mostly a response to /js;dr, so it reads HTML specific, but doesn't mean media isn't "web"
#
[snarfed] wait no "curlable" can't mean HTML only, I curl for JSON and other formats all the time
#
[snarfed] right
#
to2ds conneg-- again since my last didn't take.
#
[schmarty] pcarrier: sounds like you see "curlability"'s URLs + hypertext model as pretty narrow. i'm not asking you to adopt it. but whether you adopt it doesn't make it an _invalid_ definition for "of the web".
#
pcarrier [schmarty]: IDK what invalid would mean for a definition. But I like to ask whether it's useful. And if it conflicts with the extreme majority's understanding I don't think it's of much use (at that point better pick a different term)
#
[schmarty] looks like i am demonstrating my point about how easy (and unproductive) it is to fall into arguments on definitions of the web. 😂
#
gRegor curlability probably needs the context of what you're trying to do: Trying to read text? Curl should respond with text/HTML, not JS. Trying to watch a video, curl should return a video file, etc.
#
gRegor *text or HTML
#
[KevinMarks] You can use XOXO to turn json into HTML and back. Maybe I should do a details/summary version that matches Firefox ui
#
[KevinMarks] Also possibly more sanitizing given the recent mention.tech abuse
#
to2ds XOXO is a tool? Thought it was a fest.
#
[KevinMarks] eg https://unmung2.appspot.com/jsontoxoxo?url=https%3A%2F%2Fxoxo.zone%2F%40KevinMarks.json
#
[KevinMarks] It was a tool first, but the Andys beat my SEO
#
to2ds Ah!
#
[tantek] AFAIK Internet Archive is not archiving raw JSON requests or conneg JSON requests. So that's one definition for them not being "part of the web"
#
[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/205804149990883329
ttybitnik joined the channel
#
[tantek] heh
[Joe_Crawford] joined the channel
#
pcarrier [tantek] https://web.archive.org/web/20240905162158/https://nothing.pcarrier.com/feed.json
#
[tantek] pcarrier++ amazing!
#
Loqi pcarrier has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (17 in all channels)
claudinec joined the channel
#
pcarrier is there a term for retiring one's use of a third-party by pulling the content to their own website?
#
[tantek] two terms. /backfill and /silo-quit
#
[tantek] what is backfill
#
Loqi backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
[qubyte], to2ds, [aciccarello], bret, [snarfed]1, [fluffy] and [jacky] joined the channel
#
[tantek] was Cohost built on some big JS toolchain thing like other web app cargo culting?
#
[jacky] wow it had nearly a quarter million users
#
[jacky] from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohost
[benatwork] and rozenglass joined the channel