#dev 2024-09-15
2024-09-15 UTC
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[manton] [tantek] I’m not sure that anything is missing from Micropub + Microsub. I mentioned both in the session. The problem is it feels hard to convince people in the fediverse dev community that the answer isn’t in ActivityPub. The good news is that most of what I’m hearing is people know the Mastodon API is a dead-end.
# [manton] Dave Winer blogged today about essentially the same thing, but from the perspective of the MetaWeblog API. http://scripting.com/2024/09/14.html#a140503
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doesnm [manton]: do you talking about ActivityPub C2S? i know two server implementation: fedbox and pleroma. in clients: AndStatus
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[tantek] aaronpk, you might be interested in tracking https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/49
# doesnm ssh-keygen -Y verify -f ~/.ssh/allowed_signers -I 'https://doesnm.p.psf.lt' -n auth -s /tmp/tmp.oE9slhYaLT.doesnm. Looks like right command. But i still can't validate xD
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# doesnm manually worked 0_0
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# vroman1 popranger: As asked in #indieweb about my tech stack, I'm currently using Hugo as a static site generator. I'll evaluate it again when I have time to redesign and publish new content if it fits; if not, I'll craft something in Go or PHP. Hosting comes from my (own small) company.
# doesnm facepalm. cgi does not display stderr by default. It contain useful information
# popranger vroman1: do you use these for private purposes, like hosting a blog, or are promoting/working for a company?
# popranger also what makes you favor Hugo (markdown+toml config iirc), Go and PHP over node.js?
# popranger [edit] also what makes you favor Hugo (markdown+toml config iirc), Go and PHP compared to node.js?
# popranger (a startup incubator i joined recently is making me do a little market research but i'm also interested in these choices people make)
# vroman1 popranger: I own the company, providing hosting, vps and so on. It just started as a side-project, but want to make it full-time business (even if it is going slowly, as family an $DAYJOB consumes several time)
# vroman1 popranger: Using Go is just a matter of.. well, I'm very comfortable with it (came from C background and PHP). But also use node.js (I can say indirectly?) as I work with Vue to create SPAs; but not on my blog
# popranger yea same for me, i'm working on a business but it's more an open source nodejs project than a platform-as-a-service
# vroman1 popranger: Even, for me, its easier to code in Go and deploy on non-Linux systems (I use OpenBSD and FreeBSD extensively), that lacks several support from node.js common modules.
# popranger vroman1: oh thats an interesting context
# doesnm pcarrier: maybe later
# popranger it's so difficult to do this market research assignment because there seem to be 2 kinds of web devs: ones working with non-js languages and frameworks, like PHP, python, Hugo etc or directly editing html/css/js, and those using js frameworks like react, angular, vue, astro etc. noone is writing nodejs directly despite its original appeal being to make js the homogeneous language for the web
# popranger [edit] it's so difficult to do this market research assignment because there seem to be 2 kinds of web devs: ones working with non-js languages and frameworks, like PHP, python, Hugo etc or directly editing html/css/js, and those using js frameworks like react, angular, vue, vite etc. noone is writing nodejs directly despite its original appeal being to make js the homogeneous language for the web
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[KevinMarks] I can see the attraction of reimplementing the Mastodon client API to get access to 3rd party Mastodon clients - is the problme that ti is too tightly bound to mastodon assumptions?
# popranger you mean plenty of people use nextjs to let it do its thing
# popranger and only since it swapped the rug under SPAs to support SSR
# [KevinMarks] node and nunjucks++
# popranger i don't see many devs "writing" anything these days, just being consumers of framework abstractions
# popranger a spike express usage indicate a transition to SSR? SPA frameworks have been using express as dev server forever
# popranger [edit] a spike in express usage indicates a transition to SSR? SPA frameworks have been using express as dev server forever
# popranger and it could be a dependency of anythung in npm
# popranger pcarrier[d]: in relation to SSR, nextjs introduced that feature a few years ago making it a topic. Astro pioneered it too, but it doesnt compare in popularity
# popranger maybe Vite too, but it's also a framework of many abstractions, so to me no dev can claim expertise in anything beyond the framework itself
# popranger i hope i dont come off as angry, although i am cuz that's what the framework lobby makes me in general. xD
# popranger i'm only talking about the difference between eg. knowing how to traverse a custom object to render html instead of being limited to what parameterizing a React component expects from you after installing 50 dependencies the dev doesn't even know about and before trans/com/pseudopiling jsx-typescript-tailwind csscomponents to standard html/css/js
# popranger i worked with seniors who didnt know HTML was a subset of XML, or that SVG had markup, or first time they saw flatMap was in my code 😆
# popranger so i don't have a lot of confidence in the industry trends xD
# popranger but thats anecdotal
# popranger pcarrier[d]: ok they didnt know what XML was, it wasnt such interpretation issue
# popranger pcarrier[d]: schema, whatever. html having been made less strict to the point traditions rendered the specification obsolete is just the last part of the story
# popranger no need to sigh, i'm not sighing xD
# popranger oh ok, didnt know that. interesting given it was relying on the extensible nature of xml
# popranger sounds like an anachronism to me, but i dont care that much
# popranger you defending a senior reactdev who didnt know what xml was, because of all the other abstractions he needs to know to stay afloat. debating the exact relationship between xml and html would have been luxury.
# popranger but i'm happy to learn the less strict html spec preceded the more strict xhtml one
# [KevinMarks] interesting on the difficulties of a modern reader https://www.threads.net/@aaronrosspowell/post/C_1aWaeMqB5
# popranger [edit] you defending a senior reactdev who didnt know what xml was at all, because of all the other abstractions he needs to know to stay afloat. debating the exact relationship between xml and html would have been luxury.
# popranger [edit] you digressing from a senior reactdev not knowing what xml was at all, because of all the other abstractions he needs to know to stay afloat. debating the exact relationship between xml and html would have been luxury.
# popranger [edit] a spike in express usage in the last week indicates a transition to SSR? SPA frameworks have been using express as dev server forever
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Loqi A composite stream is a stream that interleaves multiple types of posts, such as notes and articles https://indieweb.org/composite_stream
# [KevinMarks] Indeed - after all the supposed "short message" streams are all composites too
# [KevinMarks] Bluesky just added video posts after user demand
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# [manton] Posted about Micropub, Mastodon API, etc… Lemme know if anyone has thoughts. https://www.manton.org/2024/09/14/toward-a-common.html
# doesnm why some nicknames wrapped with []?
# [tantek] doesnm the [names] are from Slack, see https://indieweb.org/discuss#Differences_between_chat_services
# doesnm understand. what's why your whois showed gateway.indieweb.org
# doesnm meanwhile i done ssh verification! but i should implement post method...
# doesnm should i check all fields? (grant_type, client_id, code, redirect_uri, code_verifier
# popranger [qubyte]: cool! did you write your own SSG or you have a preferred library? i don't mean to diss too much on framework devs either, good for anyone who is comfortable working with them, i might just have been having a little sugar rush for discovering a shrine of more down to earth professionals 😄
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[qubyte] The source is here (non-permissive license, but all there to see). No promises are made for quality and test coverage! https://github.com/qubyte/qubyte-codes
# [qubyte] The colophon might be more useful for an overview https://qubyte.codes/colophon
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capjamesg[d] [qubyte]++
# capjamesg[d] I love the “what this means” parts.
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# [tantek] [manton]++ great post! Only thing I'd add is two things: Micropub is the only of all of those APIs that has a comprehensive test suite (link: https://micropub.rocks) and has perhaps 10x more implementations (clients https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Clients and servers https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Servers) than the others.
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# popranger [qubyte]: freaky nice. the graph build system is very interesting. i see you use Toisu (havent heard of it but looks like express) as a dev server, and netlify as prod. i wonder why you don't use the same dev server on a simple vm or self host? i suspect the usual ressom for this is SSL or some performance concerns. is it something else?
# [qubyte] I’m also the author of Toisu, and actually developed it for hosting my personal site. When it became clear I only needed to host static files I relegated it to dev server duties (before even buying the domain). As sebbu says, netlify is just a glorified CDN with a configurable build process and stuff.
# popranger i see, but so you don't use netlify as a static host? or how is your prod host different from the dev server? asking cuz i wrote my own server too and i struggle to see a reason to host it anywhere else than from my phone in my pocket (if not for stability i run the server sometimes from a GCP vm)
# popranger which i do with cloudflare tunnel from termux btw, so i get CDN support too
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# popranger in the meantime i registered that you say "it became clear I only needed to host static files", but Toisu would serve static files just as well wouldn't it? how would it be different from netlify?
# popranger [edit] i see, but so you don't use netlify as a static host? or how is your prod host different from the dev server? asking cuz i wrote my own server too and i struggle to see a reason to host it anywhere else than from my phone in my pocket (if not for stability i run the server sometimes from a GCP vm, which is money though)
# popranger [edit] i see, but so you don't use netlify as a static host? or how is your prod host different from the dev server? asking cuz i wrote my own server too and i struggle to see a reason to host it anywhere else than from my phone in my pocket (if not for more stability i run the server sometimes from a GCP vm, which is money though)
# [qubyte] Static files still need to be served, right? It just makes their hosting simpler. A Netlify serves static files (with the CDN). A CDN is only a server, really. The distinction is really down to how much you’re asking the server to do. If the body of the response is the same regardless of the requester (there may be some difference in cache headers and such).
# [qubyte] The dev server in this case is for use on my local machine only. There are some differences, but it could with some minor tweaks be hosting the site in production. I’ve considered it, especially since I have a couple of endpoints which aren’t static (micropub and webmention stuff). It’s possible to go the other way too… the Netlify CLI has local hosting capabilities.
# [qubyte] Originally my reason for migrating away from DO to Netlify was to enable push-to-deploy without needing a server to listen to webhook events to trigger a pull and rebuild. At the time the DO box was also renewing certificates from Let’s Encrypt in a weekly cron job, and the setup was already beginning to feel fragile.
# popranger yea i was a bit confused by calling it a CDN, cuz i understand it as a service to cache assets across a global network of routers so they get served more close to various locations
# popranger but gotit, so netlify is indeed for stability, SSL and performance concerns
# popranger and CICD in addition (although that wouldn't seem too difficult to be directed at a local deployment instead of netlify in a github action)
# popranger [edit] and CICD in addition (although that wouldn't seem too difficult to be directed at a local deployment instead of netlify in a github action. not sure though)
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