#dev 2024-10-31

2024-10-31 UTC
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[tantek] capjamesg[d]++ I appreciate that "Lighthouse is half-full" perspective 🙂
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Loqi capjamesg[d] has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (197 in all channels)
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[morganm] WebPageTest is the next level on lighthouse
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[morganm] WebPageTest also used to be super damn cool until it got acquired and then catchpoint laid off the dev team
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carrvo Hello, I setup Apache httpd for the first time a few months ago and when I started looking at Identity Providers before exposing content publicly, I found IndieAuth and became quite intrigued. Just finished this past week setting up a localhost test user (IdP + webpage + client) and am wondering if there is a module out their (or plans for one) that would allow Apache to handle the authentication before it reaches a client page/ap
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capjamesg[d] You can link directly to text in Firefox now: https://alfy.blog/2024/10/19/linking-directly-to-web-page-content.html
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capjamesg[d] [edit] You can link directly to text in Firefox now: https://alfy.blog/2024/10/19/linking-directly-to-web-page-content.html
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aaronpk Did they do the chrome thing?
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capjamesg[d] Roughly.
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capjamesg[d] That blog post is a good read.
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capjamesg[d] Also https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/URI/Fragment/Text_fragments
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capjamesg[d] [edit] Also https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/URI/Fragment/Text_fragments
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superkuh Surprise surprise, netlify being evil again, https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/10/sorry-gas-companies-parody-isnt-infringement-even-if-it-creeps-you-out
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aaronpk eh, netlify appears to be being overly defensive there, not evil
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[morganm] Not defending Netlify but basically I'm imagining some regular people working for them and this comes across their desk and they probably will take defensive action. I don't like Netlify doing this, but it also seems very unsurprising? Can't undo capitalism with capitalist tools unfortunately
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aaronpk Right, it's the easiest/laziest thing to do to make it not their problem anymore
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[snarfed] whoa the #:~: fragmention syntax works in Safari too
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[snarfed] so it now has parity across Chrome, Firefox, and Safari
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[snarfed] that's exciting, even if it's not fragmentions
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superkuh If it was the first time netlify had done something, sure, but it's a pattern.
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superkuh Evil in the way an unaccountable corporate policy based action is evil, not evil like a human person is.
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[tantek] what is Netlify?
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Loqi Netlify is a CDN/static hosting provider with integrated build service, useful for static site generators https://indieweb.org/Netlify
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[tantek] ^ feel free to start a criticism section if you have citations of a pattern
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superkuh Multiple cases of massively over-charging people on ostensibly free accounts and refusing to do anything till it hits hacker news and now apparently their butt-covering corporate policies make even non-DMCA take-downs of completely legal stuff super easy for trolls.
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superkuh A pattern of unaccountable user-hostile corporate policies with no recourse until you hit the news and get CEO attention.
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[snarfed] superkuh, you may be right! but still, we try not to focus too much on extreme negativity and rants against individual companies here. https://indieweb.org/discuss#Avoid_General_Technology_Rants
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[snarfed] maybe take it to #indieweb-random?
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superkuh Sure, lets not recommend them either then. As that's what I'm responding to.
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superkuh A few days back.
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[snarfed] sounds worth adding to the /Netlify page, as tantek mentioned
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[tantek] superkuh, if it's worth repeatedly pointing out, then take the time to document it on the wiki so others can discover it, or cite a summary URL instead of only repeating things in chat
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[0x3b0b] [snarfed] because giving Granary karma in the other channel reminded me I hadn't mentioned it yet...the folks trying to pick up the baton for microblogpub and move forward with it have been talking lately (about possibly renaming the fork and github org, and also) about some potential expansion of focus and redesign...one of the ideas floated was that of rebuilding one layer of it around granary. Not sure yet whether that's actually likely to...
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[0x3b0b] ... happen, though.
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[snarfed] 0x3b0b interesting! thanks for the heads up
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lazcorp I've been reading up on the Text fragments linking and the "textStart and textEnd" look very useful for linking to quotes from other sites. I've just updated this article to link out to the exact text I'm quoting:
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lazcorp https://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/blogs/artists-notebook/posts/a-final-word-on-blogs
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Loqi [preview] [The Artist’s Notebook] A final word on blogs before we return to our regularly scheduled programming
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lazcorp One weird Firefox bug (at least for me using FF 131.0.3 on Linux) - if I right-click and open in a new tab then the text fragment link doesn't work (just normally left-clicking the link works correctly). Chrome works whether you click or right-click to open in a new tab, so presumably just a Firefox bug
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lazcorp But apart from that, being able to link to (with a visual highlight) the full section of text you're quoting should certainly help people be able to find references more easily
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lazcorp oh, and you can style scrolled-to-and-highlighted text fragments on your own site using ::target-text
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Kupietz So I implemented embeds on my wordpress site yesterday. You can get the content of any page or post by tacking /embed/ or ?embed to the url
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Kupietz Then I realized, my CSP prevents iframes, so, totally pointless endeavor. No worries, though, I just put some conditionals in my .htaccess to change frame-ancestor to * based on the following conditions:
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Kupietz <If "%{REQUEST_URI} =~ m#embed# || %{QUERY_STRING} =~ m#(?:^|&)embed(?:&|$)#">
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Kupietz So now, when I go to https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/?embed it allows any frame origin. But: doesn't work for https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed/
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Kupietz I have tried a million different variations. I asked 3 different LLMs.
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Kupietz REQUEST_URI, every single comparison fails, no matter what.
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Kupietz So I set a header to display Header add X-Debug-URI "%{REQUEST_URI}e"
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Kupietz And sure enough, %{REQUEST_URI} is /carry/embed/
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Kupietz but just won't match. Ever.
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Kupietz I even tried <If "%{REQUEST_URI} == '/carry/embed/'>. No match
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Kupietz I tried without the trailing slash. No difference.
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lazcorp It's not working for me with either ?embed or /embed/
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Kupietz Right now it's not. Give me a second to restore it to how it was
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Kupietz Right now I don't even have it setting the CSP header, just an X-header for testing. Here's the current block:
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Kupietz <If "%{REQUEST_URI} =~ m#embed# || %{QUERY_STRING} =~ m#(?:^|&)embed(?:&|$)#"> Header add X-Debug-URI "yes=%{REQUEST_URI}e" </If> <Else> Header add X-Debug-URI "no=%{REQUEST_URI}e" </Else>
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Kupietz /carry/?embed returns "yes=/carry/?embed". /carry/embed/ returns "no=/carry/embed/".
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Kupietz I actually had ChatGPT4o insist it was working fine, which was infuriating
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lazcorp that's still not working for me with any of /?embed, ?embed, /embed, or /embed/
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Kupietz That's bizarre. Working for me in Firefox. Let me check chrome
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lazcorp I was tetsing in FF
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lazcorp *testing
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Kupietz Wow. It's working completely different for me in chrome than in Firefox.
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Kupietz It's redirecting from ?embed back to the main page now
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Kupietz Might be a caching issue. Let me try clearing the wp cache
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Kupietz This is maddening. It's getting a 301 redirect in chrome that doesn't happen in FF.
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Kupietz I can't believe I'm losing a whole day on this...
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lazcorp yeah, I think there's some sort of redirect going on before the CSP kicks into play
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lazcorp yeah, I think there's some sort of redirect going on before the CSP kicks into play
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lazcorp yeah, I think there's some sort of redirect going on before the CSP kicks into play
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Kupietz Yoast redirecting because I didn't register the ?embed parameter. Hold on...
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Kupietz Ok, now behaving the same in both browsers. ?embed producing the expected x-debug-uri, /embed/ isn't.
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lazcorp Still not working for me - I think I need to be embedding the iframes on an https page - just one sec...
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Kupietz Just type the url direct into your browser with /embed/ or ?embed and look at the headers... not sure what the default is if I have no CSP specified
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Kupietz https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed/
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lazcorp yeah, I can't embed iframes on my site because of my own CSP rules!
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Kupietz Fun with security...
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lazcorp https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed/ works for me typed into the URL bar in FF
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lazcorp https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed redirects to https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed/ (and works)
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Kupietz You're getting the x-debug-uri that starts with "yes"?
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lazcorp https://michaelkupietz.com/carry/embed/ - x-debug-uri no=/carry/embed/
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Kupietz It loads the page correctly, yeah. But the conditional in the .htaccess isn't working.
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Kupietz I don't know why /carry/embed/ isn't matching m#embed#
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lazcorp ?embed - x-debug-uri yes=/carry/?embed
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Kupietz Yep. Works with the query version
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lazcorp isn't # a comment in .htaccess ?
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Kupietz At the beginning of a line, yes. but var =~ m#abc# is a regexp match
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Kupietz or, it's supposed to be. I just saw where it says so right in abache 2.4's documentation
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Kupietz apache
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lazcorp could you try with /* rather than #
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[0x3b0b] ...usually used when the regex has slashes in it, to avoid having to escape them. Just t--that's what I was going to ask
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Kupietz Yeah, I've been trying a million different versions of this... it started as m#/embed/#
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Kupietz but even %{REQUEST_URI} =~ /embed/ doesn't work
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Kupietz nor %{REQUEST_URI} == '/carry/embed/', even when the x-header shows that that's exactly what it's equal to
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[0x3b0b] What does the e mean in the addition of the header? Clearly it isn't a literal e.
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Kupietz I don't know, but every example I found had it. Some sort of formatting thing I guess.
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Kupietz I got that line to set the header off stack overflow
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lazcorp I'm all out of ideas, I'm afraid
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Kupietz Yeah, you and me and 3 LLMs. Thanks for trying, man.
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lazcorp No problem - sorry I couldn't help
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[0x3b0b] Still trying to eliminate potential sources of weirdness: Did you already try it with only the one condition in the <if>, and no ||?
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Kupietz Yep. The problem is the comparison itself.
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Kupietz Either term by itself behaves as they do when I have them together with the ||
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lazcorp Can you separate them out?
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Kupietz Tried it. No matter what I do, that one comparison doesn't work.
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lazcorp <If "%{REQUEST_URI}..., then <ElseIf "%{REQUEST_URI}..., the <Else...
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Kupietz Yeah, tried it somewhere in there.
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Kupietz Even just took out all the conditions and else's except for that one... had it either set a header if it matched, otherwise nothing happens. Nothing happened.
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Kupietz If I had to guess, I'd say it's acting like there are invisible characters in the REQUEST_URI. But I've never seen nor heard of that before... at least, not that you couldn't avoid by typing carefully.
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Kupietz Pretty sure that couldn't be it. But that's what it's acting like.
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Kupietz Suppose I could either remove my iframe restrictions entirely... or only use ?embed, forget about /embed/... but both bother me on principle because THIS SHOULD WORK
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gRegor kupietz, this might help a bit? https://processwire.com/talk/topic/23000-apache2-blocks-dont-work-with-regex-matches-against-the-request_uri-variable/
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[0x3b0b] Since the problem seems to be with comparing REQUEST_URI somehow rather than necessarily with what you're comparing it to, how about temporarily trying something like this: <If "%{THE_REQUEST} =~ m#embed/?\b#" >
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gRegor jinx :)
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[0x3b0b] ...and here comes gRegor with why we might need to go that direction, gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (138 in all channels)
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Kupietz Oh, gRegor, that title looks promising, thanks... brb...
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gRegor 🤞
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Kupietz Hot dang. That looks like it. So, likely a bug.
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gRegor Plug that url into chatgpt and tell it it's wrong, haha
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Kupietz You should know: every service I subscribe to knows me as "that guy who finds all the bugs." You have no idea how often I have support people tell me, "Wow, we've never seen that before." I don't know why. I always find broken edge cases. All the time.
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Loqi I agree
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Kupietz You don't know Claude 3.5 Sonnet ran me through *180* prompts and replies trying to fix this.
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gRegor wow
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Kupietz So, bizarrely, using %{THE_REQUEST} returns an x-debug-uri of "yes=(null)"... but, I'm not going to worry about that, it evaluated the conditional right so I can get this working now. THANK YOU.
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Kupietz Yeah, I saved the chat, gRegor, I'm going to post it in my eventual "Artificial Stupidity" site section
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gRegor Progress! \o/
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Kupietz gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (139 in all channels)
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Kupietz Hell,. everybody put some time in lazcorp++ [0x3b0b]++
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Loqi [0x3b0b] has 2 karma over the last year
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Kupietz hmm, did it not get lazcorp++ ?
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Kupietz No karma for you, lazcorp++ !
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gRegor No punctuation at the end
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gRegor lazcorp++
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Loqi lazcorp has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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gRegor Oh, nvm... I dunno what happened
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[0x3b0b] Also the /?\b in what I was doing was pointlessly redundant, I was halfway between two ideas and just barely starting to think about how strict you might want to be with things like whether to allow /embed/?embed&embed=embed or such nonsense or what if you ever had a page called embed or...that kind of thing
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[0x3b0b] and now I'm curious whether DOCUMENT_URI which is supposed to be the same thing has the same problem. I would hope so.
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[0x3b0b] Thirdly: I thought the issue was that Loqi could only karmacize one thing at the very beginning and one thing at the very end of a message...speaking of string matching.
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Kupietz Ah, ok. Anyway: Fixed now. Everything working exactly as desired. Thanks!
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Kupietz Interesting. Yes, Tantek did that on #Indieweb a short while ago... one name at the beginning and one at the end. Good to know. I'm very new here, still learning the ropes. I only figured out how to add a sparkline yesterday...
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[tantek] in which I spend more time documenting obsolete history for completeness sake than the modern new implemented proposal 🙃 https://indieweb.org/rel-embed#Historical_proposal
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Kupietz Interesting to hear the old lore. Kids today, they don't know what it was like, when the standards weren't set, and we were first settling these new frontiers. Back then, when you wanted to write a web app, you couldn't run to the corner store and pick up some React or Angular. You had to mine raw javascript with a pickaxe. That is, if you managed to even finish that, without getting hypnotized by a <BLINK> tag.
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[tantek] also of perhaps nerdy historical note, having to cite a www-talk archive that is MISSING from the W3C mailing list archives
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Kupietz Man, social media has got me conditioned. So hard to communicate nowadays without a "like" button.
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Loqi kupietz has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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superkuh kupietz++
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Kupietz Much obliged :-)
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Kupietz Incidentally, so I sort of informally documented this whole above-resolved issue on my embeds page at https://michaelkupietz.com/embedding-content-from-this-site/ . I think I'm going to put something in the Wiki Embeds page brainstorming section too, it's germane.
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[tantek] lol "shadowy web standards advocate" I can't even
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[tantek] 🕶️
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gRegor > "you couldn't run to the corner store and pick up some React or Angular" Oh, so it was paradise? :D
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gRegor Having just wrestled with Drupal for a couple hours, I'm missing some of those "simpler" days, haha
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Kupietz Yeah, @tantek, not trying to flatter you but if you wind up browsing around my site you may notice that "shadowy" tends to be a compliment :-) Right now I think I only have described you & John Law that way.
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Kupietz @gRegor... everything's relative! Yeah, it was really annoying, actually, but there was something to be said for just sticking <font> tags everywhere and being done with it because that's all you could do... Interactivity amounted to having a formmailer.pl-backed form, maybe even a fancy cgi script that allowed people to post a comment....
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Kupietz But after just having lost a better part of a day to that consarned apache bug, I'm hard-pressed to say whether things are better now or not.... :-D
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Kupietz Oh, and fancy <map> tags! I was working for green tortoise adventure travel, we actually had a GIF of a map on the front page where you could click on a destination on the map, and it would take you to that page (out of our site's 7 pages!) The very heighth of technological sophistication
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Kupietz And... the mouseovers. Oh, the mouseovers.
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gRegor "computers are terrible" - [Joe_Crawford] https://artlung.com/blog/2024/10/
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gRegor what is imagemap
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "imagemap" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "imagemap is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor hm
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gRegor what is image map
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "image map" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "image map is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor thought we had that
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gRegor I think capjamesg was playing with them?
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[tantek] something about a virtual bookshelf? AI? image recognition? OCR of the spines of books?
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gRegor sounds familiar, yeah!
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gRegor https://jamesg.blog/2024/06/04/image-map-generator/
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Loqi [preview] Building an interactive tool to generate image maps
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Kupietz BEHOLD THE GLORY https://web.archive.org/web/19980129092227/http://www.greentortoise.com:80/map.html
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[tantek] lol
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gRegor Love it
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gRegor Copied wrong link above, computers are terrible quote is in https://artlung.com/blog/2024/10/21/i-made-a-troll-sign/
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Loqi [preview] [Joe Crawford] I made a troll sign to hold up during Zoom meetingsI have been known to say “Printers are terrible.” I have also been known to say that I will only do tech support on printers for people I love. I later expanded my “Printers are terrible” to ...
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Kupietz That was right when I took over. Before I started making it super-fancy. https://web.archive.org/web/20011202134411/http://greentortoise.com:80/ Note that I specifically called out our "CLICKABLE" map!
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Kupietz Joe's a perspicacious guy. Like a lot of people here. I'm glad I found Indieweb.
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[Joe_Crawford] Right back at you Michael -- Thanks kupietz++
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Loqi kupietz has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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Kupietz Whoa! Do you guys all get alerts if your names get mentioned in here or something??
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superkuh https://www.lmsal.com/solarsoft/latest_events/ still uses image map to great effect.
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Kupietz I love that. There's no reason for that page to be anything more than it is
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gRegor Joe is on Slack so could have those notifications on. I get them on irc for my nick and also "indiebookclub"