#dev 2024-11-01
2024-11-01 UTC
# 
gRegor Can also leave messages for nicks via Loqi's !tell command https://indieweb.org/Loqi#Interactions
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "kibo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "kibo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# 
[tantek] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_%22Kibo%22_Parry is good enough for that
gRegorLove_ joined the channel
# 
[mattl] Yeah it’s not mentioned. We use the same ISP for some stuff. Look at http://www.kibo.com
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "shtml" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "shtml is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ssi" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ssi is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# 
[Joe_Crawford] https://twitter.com/artlung/status/421427861950451712 "I miss Kibo" January 9, 2014.
geoffo joined the channel
# [Joe_Crawford] It’s a tightrope worth walking. You pull it off more than you fall. Despite my smartass signage.
jimw and ps_gro joined the channel
# carrvo A less convenient way to achieve an image map would be to split your image into multiple images, then use them like layers by floating the individual <image> tags over each other...
jimw, jimw0, [Joe_Crawford] and bterry joined the channel
# [tantek] FYI to folks involved in SocialWG related specs and SWICG proposals/incubations, the SWICG meeting appears to have been moved to next Friday (2024-11-08): https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6b91f267-6cb4-41ca-9a67-5035cee827dd/20241101T130000/
lazcorp joined the channel
# 
lazcorp Added a quick summary beneath Kupietz's at https://indieweb.org/embed#Content_Security_Policy_Rule_Concerns_(Embedding_Content_site)_%E2%80%94_Paul_Watson
codebuzz, GuestZero, barnaby, [Joschi_Kuphal], Xe, Guest6, AramZS, [morganm], [qubyte] and sebbu joined the channel
# gRegor Hah, love that `Netscape-bookmark-file` lives on (via https://artlung.com/blog/2024/10/31/owning-my-own-bookmarks-over-20-years/)
# [Joe_Crawford] Someone asking for the DTD, somehow the best answer is to a Microsoft document, also hilarious: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/72772176/documentation-or-reference-for-netscape-bookmark-file-1-doctype
# gRegor TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Slice, based on hAtom!
# [Joe_Crawford] TIME TRAVEL
Kupietz joined the channel
# 
Kupietz lazcorp I've been mulling over those issues as well. Unfortunately the best solutions are the most complex. Really, I think what we want is a very simple API of some sort, pull in the post content as data. Come to my site, register for an account, get a key, pull my content as XML or JSON. (This crossed my mind also because the /embed output has no formatting, and in an iframe, it's ugly as sin.) As before getting involved with Indieweb a few
# Loqi A whostyle is a type of stylesheet that can be used to style syndicated hypertext and quotes outside of your website https://indieweb.org/whostyle
# Kupietz Ah hah. As to my little brainflash, looks like there's a security issue: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3607894/cross-site-scripting-in-css-stylesheets
# [tantek] kupietz, for personal websites, both for robustness and minimizing /admintax, I highly recommend avoiding any "database" backends and stick to flat files instead
# Loqi The database antipattern is the false assumption that a database is the best option for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site) https://indieweb.org/database-antipattern,
# Loqi TiddlyWiki is a responsive website platform built as a single file in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript https://indieweb.org/TiddlyWiki
# Kupietz daytime identity: https://www.kupietz.com
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FileMaker" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "FileMaker is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Kupietz Now, you wanna see something cool... FileMaker generates the DOT files for this: https://www.kupietz.com/filemaker-ddr-analyzer/ That's an interactive analysis of... a FileMaker database. FileMaker analyzes its own schematic output, creates a digraph and exports something a webassembly port of GraphViz can display like that
[aciccarello] joined the channel
JadedBlueEyes joined the channel
# gRegor Yep, this page: https://tinysubversions.com/projects/
kimmy joined the channel
# fausphorus Beep
# fausphorus So I'm gonna take a minute to look at this Microblog link
# fausphorus So I've also been looking at Neocities as a possible 'Host' as it *seems* like a platform that would allow me to post what I want, but I don't know how to verify this. Neocities compared to micro.blog, what's the difference? Is there some way I can ensure microblog won't just one day nuke my website?
# fausphorus I'm looking at omg.lol too which looks quirky
# nataliagruber Neocities TOS was fairly 'fair' when I read it, but it's been years and I'd recommend reading it yourself.
# nataliagruber That said, I don't think any platform is 100% safe in terms of nuking your content. Some might be safer than others, but I'd always backup regardless.
# [tantek] Yes I'd say there's a spectrum here of how much you (don't) want to get into coding, from http://micro.blog (zero code needed), to omg.lol (some code optional), to neocities (you have to write some code)
# nataliagruber Backing up from Neocities is easy (you just hit a 'download website' button) but it's manual, files aren't on your device by default, so if you weren't manually backing up and they did for whatever reason delete your site, you wouldn't have anything.
# nataliagruber But all in all, it does cost 5usd month on neocities to be able to use a custom domain, at which point i'd recommend github pages for free.
# fausphorus I'm-baby in terms of website building, connecting, hosting, etc. How can I ensure that I just, plainly don't lose my content if something goes down? I imagine I just keep all my files, images, text, code in my own PC's files in some way, and if some host goes down or goes awry, I just connect to a different host..? Is that how this works?
# fausphorus "explain like I'm five" is recommended here LOL
# 
capjamesg[d] [snarfed] I am getting "WARNING:root:Failed to parse datetime October 29, 2024 at 6:21 AM UTC" when parsing a feed with an unusual time format with granary.
# capjamesg[d] Is there a way I can address this?
# capjamesg[d] It returns the timestamp but in the malformed way.
# capjamesg[d] I just figured out what to do.
# capjamesg[d] on the returned timestamp.
# capjamesg[d] from dateutil.parser import parse
# capjamesg[d] parse(text, fuzzy=True)
# capjamesg[d] Good to know.
# capjamesg[d] With that said, this was a really helpful log.
# nataliagruber Fausphorus, as mentioned next door, there will indeed never be 100% safety, but keeping files locally, backing up, etc does give you a lot more autonomy and safety in general.
# nataliagruber Do you know any HTML and/or, are you interested in that, are are you more looking for a solution that doesn't require any coding? (both approaches are valid!)
# IWDiscord <nataliagruber>
# fausphorus I don't know that much HTML, although I do feel like learning it would be more resilient than relying on a system that gets by without coding. While using a system that doesn't rely on coding sounds "faster", I feel like I too often run into the isssue of wanting something specific that isn't pre-made. 🤔 At most I might take a pre-made system and try to frankenstein a reverse-deconstruction of it
# nataliagruber Then honestly, I'd create a couple of accounts and start messing with them xD
# nataliagruber But that's my usual learning style
# capjamesg[d] [snarfed] I'm also getting "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.11/lib/python3.11/site-packages/oauth_dropins/webutil/util.py:2041: GuessedAtParserWarning: No parser was explicitly specified, so I'm using the best available HTML parser for this system ("lxml"). This usually isn't a problem, but if you run this code on another system, or in a different virtual environment, it may use a different parser and behave differently." I
# nataliagruber Neocities _is_ very beginner friendly for a place to begin seeing how stuff works
# capjamesg[d] Neocities is great!
# nataliagruber And they have tutorials that will help figuring out the basics.
# IWDiscord <nataliagruber>
# nataliagruber (I haven't used micro.publi so someone else would need to advise on that xD)
# capjamesg[d] You can write and publish HTML and make your site look exactly how you want.
# capjamesg[d] Neocities has an interactive HTML course.
# nataliagruber I started on Neocities after a few years of not having a site (and before I was on Blogger) and I really enjoy it xD
# fausphorus Neocities *has* been my big toe-dip into drafting something up. I'm glad it's got the apparent seal of approval as an option. I've been trying to disentangle myself from the google-verse with how it's increasingly veering into worrying territory, as much as they also offer a web-making platform
# nataliagruber And making pages on Neocities is really just a matter of creating a file on the folder called `whatever.html` and they add the innitial bits of code for you, so it's great for learning, even if you eventually leave
# capjamesg[d] ^^
# fausphorus That's good! I like the idea of having local files that are "portable". I've been getting into using Obsidian to manage my own notes locally and that's also been huge for me.
# nataliagruber and taking your files from Neocities to github pages/some other hosting option is not hard either
# fausphorus The more I fiddle around with custom things on the web, the more github gets mentioned, despite my utter inability to understand any of it. I've managed to brute-force figure out how to download github files when I needed a mod or something for games, but in terms of actually understanding the UI or how to be a proper participant; utterly baffling
# fausphorus [mattl]: What does CLI mean?
# [snarfed] capjamesg yes! that one's on you, parser and available libs are environment-dependent. you can set your parser via beautifulsoup, or via `granary.microformats2.beautifulsoup_parser`, https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/46ef97e4fed0d5a763a330942f8178c4773d3a90/util.py#L178-L182
# Loqi command line interface refers to the use of text-based commands in a terminal application to take actions such as install or update software, and is part of setting up most CMSs and running SSGs; due to difficult to remember and easy to typo commands, typically for web developers, and not recommended for any general audience IndieWeb tools or software https://indieweb.org/CLI
# nataliagruber [edit] And making pages on Neocities is really just a matter of creating a file on the folder called `whatever.html` and they add the initial bits of code for you, so it's great for learning, even if you eventually leave
# fausphorus Loqi: One more time dumbed down please 😂
# fausphorus I don't know "terminal application", "CMS", "SSG"
# Loqi A content management system (often abbreviated as CMS) is software used to create, enter, edit, update, delete content on websites; some CMSs are used for IndieWeb sites, see the tables on this page for current usage https://indieweb.org/CMS
# Loqi A static site generator or SSG is software that developers can use (typically requiring command line access) to setup a personal site that uses a set of text content files typically stored on a server, and transforms them into a set of static HTML files for a website https://indieweb.org/ssg
# capjamesg[d] fausphorus[d] You can ask Loqi questions with "what is
{x}" and it will try to find the related wiki article.# capjamesg[d] What is coffee?
# Loqi ☕️ coffee is frequently available at IndieWebCamps, and also one of the more common drink posts https://indieweb.org/coffee
# capjamesg[d] ^^ 😄
# fausphorus So, CMS is like a "template maker?"
# fausphorus And SSG is ... another, template maker?
# capjamesg[d] Basically.
# capjamesg[d] But SSGs use templates and build your whole site as a folder, whereas CMS tools run web apps that generate the page every time someone loads it.
# fausphorus So SSG is "I make word docs and put image files in a folder that then becomes a website", and CMS is "I upload things to a website which then stores it off of my PC elsewhere and makes a website with that content"?
# capjamesg[d] That's close! Although SSG usually uses "markdown", which is a type of plain text, or HTML or plain text.
# fausphorus Is markdown different from HTML?
# fausphorus [tantek]: Oh, so like tumblr's "Blog editing" page?
# fausphorus Ah!
# nataliagruber markdown is different from html, yes
# nataliagruber what you use here on discord is _basically_ markdown
# nataliagruber So that might be easier to use day-to-day to create posts, specially if you don't like html.
# fausphorus I think Discord -was- my introduction to markdown LOL
# nataliagruber I said basically! xD
# capjamesg[d] Yeah!
# nataliagruber I'm being didactic xD
# nataliagruber 👍
# fausphorus So to loop back around, "CLI" was mentioned as a "good tool" on Neocities. By context clues of "Command Line Interface" I'm picturing something like window's CMD command window, thing, to force-run apps, but I don't know how this applies in the context of neocities
# nataliagruber Command Line can be used for all sorts of different things than force-running apps xD
# nataliagruber I haven't used it CLI with neocities specifically, tho.
# fausphorus My understanding of CLI right now is "type the right magical words and a thing happens"
# fausphorus What thing? For what purpose? Still a mystery
# fausphorus Ahh
# fausphorus I imagine for hyper-specific debugging or tests?
# fausphorus To compare it to a physical example, CLI would be like reaching into a machine to forcefully move gears around, versus pushing buttons to make the gears go?
# fausphorus Ahaaa, that's good to know
# fausphorus I feel myself slowly reaching the end of my "Learning sprint" for the day, but would there be any last minute recommendations, video channels, or other "play around and find out" resources for a newcomer to all of this? My end goal is to end up with an early-internet-style personal webpage that can host my art, a blog-diary, and probably some other random resource/links to other things I'm interested in. My own independent dig
# Loqi 🎉 Get started on the indieweb by connecting with the IndieWeb community, getting a personal domain, a place for your content, and setting up your home page and other IndieWeb essentials https://indieweb.org/getting_started
# fausphorus Ouhh
# fausphorus Oh the videos seem to mainly cover the "Why" which I'm well sold on 😆
# Loqi ok, I added "to-do: need more "how to" videos that get directly into it, without any "why" for the folks that come here already convinced [[why]]." to the "See Also" section of /Getting_Started https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98158&oldid=97455
# nataliagruber I'd start with neocities' tutorial and I like w3schools a lot tho i mostly use it to lookup specific things than actually following the tutorial in order xD https://www.w3schools.com/html/
# nataliagruber [edit] I'd start with neocities' tutorial and I like w3schools a lot tho i mostly use it to lookup specific things than actually following the tutorial in order xD https://www.w3schools.com/html/
# nataliagruber People were also passing this around the other day and looks interesting! https://htmlforpeople.com
# nataliagruber [edit] People were also passing this around the other day and looks interesting! https://htmlforpeople.com
# [tantek] w3schools-- definitely not. MDN is a much more reliable source, and if you're looking for a tutorial in HTML + CSS etc. start with https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/curriculum/
# fausphorus I think what I'm trying to figure out is the very very basic of "how to start":
# fausphorus - Do I start by drawing on a paper my website concept? Where can I find good entry-level "website design best-practices"?
# fausphorus - Is it better to write up/create a website offline (and how? What allows me to do this?), or how do I live-test a website while still keeping it private/not open to the public while I'm clumsily messing around?
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# fausphorus 👀 those are also good links. I do remember trying W3school but I would quickly end up "Stuck" there without being able to interact with anyone for answers
# fausphorus 🤔 While I do like scaffolding for some learning, I do often end up running into the issue of wanting to "veer off-road" but not knowing how to look up the thing I want to accomplish
# fausphorus I'll save these links though; it'll be good for me to roomba-bump my way around
Kupietz joined the channel
# fausphorus Oh neat!
# fausphorus And I would even be able to open it offline because it's on my PC?
# fausphorus Heck yea, that's neat
# fausphorus Alright, I think I got everything I need for the time being. Thanks again for the hand-held guidance, super appreciated!
# capjamesg[d] [snarfed]++ for all your help!
# capjamesg[d] fausphorus[d] feel free to come back any time with questions as you have them!
# [tantek] TIL there 's a .one TLD?!? WTF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.one_(domain)
angelo joined the channel
# [tantek] [snarfed], interesting reply to a reply to my post problem with Bridgy Fed. In short, someone's replies to my post show up wherever my post is, however my reply to their reply only shows up on their post and not elsewhere. E.g. https://w3c.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com/113409901883223901 shows my post and their reply, but not my reply to their reply
# [tantek] yup, same problem on https://indieweb.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com/113409896961037955
# gRegor This is the subset of Markdown that Discord supports https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/210298617-Markdown-Text-101-Chat-Formatting-Bold-Italic-Underline
# Loqi Discord is a proprietary freeware VoIP application and digital distribution platform designed initially for the video gaming community, used by a variety of groups for chat and instant messaging, and bridged to the IndieWeb chat channels https://indieweb.org/Discord
# [tantek] Discord << supported Markdown subset: https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/210298617-Markdown-Text-101-Chat-Formatting-Bold-Italic-Underline
# Loqi ok, I added "supported Markdown subset: https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/210298617-Markdown-Text-101-Chat-Formatting-Bold-Italic-Underline" to the "See Also" section of /Discord https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98162&oldid=87715