#dev 2024-12-09

2024-12-09 UTC
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Kolev [tantek], I mean, I've written shell scripts and snippets of Scheme, but nothing significant.
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carrvo Yeah...the state of this stuff is definitely targeted at full developers...
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Kolev carrvo: It's not as simple as "just install WordPress"?
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[tantek] There's currently three "relatively widely supported" CMSs that you can install and maintain, with plugins: WordPress, Drupal, and Known
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carrvo I don't know much about WordPress or Micro.blog or BlueSky, but if you aren't either signing up for a service or using a plugin then you going to have to expect DIY. I know enough that WordPress can be used independently of IndieAuth and that it supports it through a plugin.
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[tantek] We have two channels of folks specifically for #indieweb-wordpress and #indieweb-known, and I think there are a few people around who run Drupal with the Drupal plugin
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carrvo [tantek]++ that is good to know.
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Loqi [tantek] has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (138 in all channels)
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GWG IndieAuth is not a site, it is a protocol. So, it*s always independent. Indieauth.com is just a hosted service
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[tantek] also I would not say "just install WordPress" is "simple". it's non-trivial IMO, especially for new folks who are unfamiliar with WordPress
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carrvo Kolev, you do have to take my comments with a g
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[tantek] then next level up in complexity is installing and maintaining an SSG with an explicit command-line build step
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GWG There are different levels of work you may wish to do, to be honest.
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carrvo grain of salt, I just found out about IndieAuth 2 months ago.
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[tantek] carrvo, you might be interested in https://spec.indieweb.org/
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GWG The more you learn, the more down the rabbit hole you go sometimes
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GWG It is a fun journey
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GWG At least it was for me
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carrvo [tantek] that is precisely what I have been reading and re-reading to get something like SelfAuth working and why I find it dev oriented. Good thing I am one.
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Kolev [tantek], oh boy, I just found out WordPress is 2 containers.
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GWG Containers? As in Docker?
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Kolev GWG, yes.
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GWG Database plus web server?
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Kolev GWG, yes, database is separate container.
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Kolev [tantek], sorry. I'm a Fedora user. In Red Hat land, that's all we do, is "just run a container."
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Kolev My media server Jellyfin and my Nextcloud are both containers.
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GWG I am a Fedora user as well. Although my Nextcloud is bare metal on the server. I still limit my containers to handling version conflicts
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GWG I suppose I'm just a creature of habit. It's slightly off topic, but why does everything need to go in a container?
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Kolev GWG, that's just how I was taught by the Fedora community: Things are moving toward being in a container.
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GWG Kolev: I understand... I'm just curious
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carrvo Things don't have to be, but it is very popular. Ubuntu has moved many into "snaps" containers.
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GWG I know. Just haven't been sold on it for everything yet
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carrvo There is a big push from a security perspective. Containers are a virtualization just above the OS level, instead of just below like KVM or VirtualBox. This allows much of the isolation and resource management, with better performance because the OS is shared. It is also the basis of SaaS since it allows the platform to update the OS without being able to access or directly influence your app.
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GWG I guess I'm just old school.
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[tantek] are these Docker containers or Kubernetes or something else?
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carrvo I don't like it because it is not as simple as they make it out to be and, for my real job, high performance apps cannot afford to "ignore the lower details". Simply put: if there is more to your tech stack then your performance is slower.
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carrvo Um, I believe Kubernetes is a platform for running Docker containers. Snaps would be a completely different container implementation than Docker.
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carrvo But I am hardly an expert. I've had a uni course and implemented one Kubernetes+Docker app.
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GWG I should read up and get more of an opinion
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GWG For now, I'll just stick to Indieweb and Presses
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Kolev I don't see a lot of Known sites, but it seems to be the most feature-complete server solution for IndieWeb, without having to roll my own stuff.
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GWG Kolev: There are some still. It didn't take off like hoped
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Kolev GWG, that doesn't sound promising.
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GWG Kolev: I meant that there was hope it would get wide adoption. It works well from what I understand
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GWG It is the only self hosted sort of turnkey solution
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Kolev GWG, I just want something I can install on my server and have it all Just Work.
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GWG That is your best bet for that
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GWG We need to get closer to that goal more as a community
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Kolev GWG, I mean, it's great that IndieWeb technologies are infrastructure-agnostic, but the protocols do take effort to implement, and having a complete solution is important.
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GWG Kolev: I agree. But our strengths also can be weaknesses
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GWG We build things for ourselves even though we share them. Believing in plurality means that there isn't one thing...and sometimes one thing would help
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GWG Also, complete is a matter of differing opinions
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Kolev Any Known sites I can look at? Like I said, the examples on the wiki, half of them are gone.
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GWG I was just discussing this yesterday. We were discussing venue recommendations and I had a very different set of goals than others
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GWG Yes, I know one
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GWG https://cleverdevil.io/ - I think this is still Known. Let me check
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GWG He is usually pretty approachable it you had questions
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GWG Busy, but approachable
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carrvo GWG++ I would have looked at Known a lot sooner if I saw it presented the way you spoke in the resources I saw. Might still look at it when I want to do more than login+OAuth. It might have been what I was hoping for.
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Loqi GWG has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (53 in all channels)
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GWG With all of the stuff we do, we're always looking for new contributors...not just code, but people to give feedback, write about it, etc
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GWG I'm not a Known user myself... I'm from the WordPress wing of the community...
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carrvo I like plurality, but I have found that having a few default "implemented for you" helps people explore before building their own for themselves and sharing.
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GWG Agreed on that point
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GWG It's just sometimes difficult to get to that.
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carrvo Kind of like when I was a kid and learned that it was polite to let your guest choose the activity. Almost every time they would give me blank stares and I learned to have a self-decided "default" activity to fallback to.
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carrvo It may have been lost in the chat but I just made https://github.com/carrvo/mindie which should go a long way for creating a "test system".
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carrvo [edit] It may have been lost in the chat but I just made https://github.com/carrvo/mindie which should go a long way for creating a "test system".
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GWG No argument, but I've been around here for a few years, we honestly have not gotten there.
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Kolev carrvo - What is a 'test system'?
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carrvo To start, dev systems have all of the in-flight code as it's being modified and played with. Often this can incur environment changes or special environment config to make it work (such as being installed to a different location). So QA often will work on a test system that is neither available for customers nor has the environment flux. Sometimes it will be called the "pre-prod" system because the more it matches a production sys
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carrvo What is test system?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "test system" yet. Would you like to create it?_A (Or just say "test system is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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carrvo Do we want a page?
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doesnm "just spin container" not always worked
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doesnm oh, wait i have not scroller buffer
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doesnm sry
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doesnm quill does not support link headers? i'm getting error "couldn't find your authorization endpoint"
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doesnm also for token and micropub...
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[Murray] @nemonical there are a few people here who have used/do use IPFS for things like images, though it can be a step up in terms of maintenance. I've never heard of the other option, but doesn't mean others aren't using it 😅 How much space is not very much? How are you compressing things like images already? Might be some ways to tweak that.
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immibis someone still has to host the data on IPFS or hyphanet
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immibis if your data isn't interesting to other people, they won't host it for you
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[Murray] that's a particularly cynical take 😄 Free data storage is also used as an upsell/lock-in mechanic 😉 also, assuming this data is being aimed at the web, I'm not really sure what the difference is? But yes, use-case and other factors are likely important. Without knowing what the files are/how they will be used, hard to say 🙂
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immibis if you can't guarantee someone else is interested in your data at all times, you still have to host a copy
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aaronpk It's not a cynical take, it's just how it works. There has to be someone hosting a copy somewhere on the network. If it's not you, then what's the incentive for someone else? Are you paying them? Are they getting rewards some other way? Etc
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[Murray] y'know, I totally misremembered what IPFS was ‒ that's on me!
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[tantek] Kolev, re: "Known sites I can look at?" — I'd say your best chances at getting a "recent" answer to that question is to re-ask it in the #indieweb-known channel
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[tantek] Kolev, re: "the examples on the wiki, half of them are gone", do you remember any of them offhand? Feel free to share here (or in #indieweb-meta if you prefer) and I'll see about updating the wiki accordingly to mark them as past examples.
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[snarfed] [aaronpk] just fyi, looks like http://webmention.io might be having trouble with some emoji, maybe the combining ones? something like that? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/1861#issuecomment-2529645297
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[snarfed] eg see author name in https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?per-page=1000&target=https://www.ellyloel.com/guestbook/ vs
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[snarfed] https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrid.gy%2Fcomment%2Fbluesky%2Fdid%3Aplc%3Avdylmzqphovh7hrt4a5ifiig%2Fat%25253A%25252F%25252Fdid%25253Aplc%25253Avdylmzqphovh7hrt4a5ifiig%25252Fapp.bsky.feed.post%25252F3lcteiaaxsc2j%2Fat%25253A%25252F%25252Fdid%25253Aplc%25253Azahmmf6agrnpmbrnnyduc7oz%25252Fapp.bsky.feed.post%25252F3lctmz3ai4k2s
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Loqi [preview] [Natalie⁴⁴ 🏳️‍⚧️] Hiiiii
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aaronpk huh
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Kolev [tantek], sites not using Known: Erin Jo Richey; Marcus Povey; Matthew Gregg; Andrew Marks; Clint Patterson; Andrew Jacobs; Alex Kiss; Free Kurt; Tiara Miller.
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Kolev [tantek], edited.
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