#dev 2025-01-21

2025-01-21 UTC
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corlaez
I just catched up with the conversations about gemini. @xuid, I haved digged into gopher or that retrocomputing website
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corlaez
I think that Gemini is very explicitly not trying to replace the web, just be something else.
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corlaez
And the constrains of gemtext, while limiting, I find they allow me to focus in the content and lifts some of the weight from publishing something up. Just a tiny bit of formating
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corlaez
like the lightest ++ one could do to plain text
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corlaez
@xuid, I *haven't* digged into gopher or that retrocomputing website
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corlaez
And I think regarding the lack of extension and constraints... It just wants to be simple and stay simple
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corlaez
extensible would open the door to complexity
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corlaez
The limitations on gemtext are also based on permacomputing and privacy I believe
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corlaez
because even if you make the tinyest, simplest HTML page, chances are the browser has all sorts of gadgets running: js engine, APIs, fingerprinting, stores, etc
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corlaez
And the protocol allows service providers to siphon a lot of data about you
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corlaez
I know the indie web is ideally about owning your website, and you can control how simple your responses are
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corlaez
but in practical terms, there is always service providers, even indie ones like known and others
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corlaez
and the thought is that by removing certain capabilities from the protocol and sealing it up you have better guarantees about privacy and such
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corlaez
simple protocols and clients means implementations can proliferate and are easier to inspect as well, or write your own.
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corlaez
while browsers are impossible lovecraftian messes.
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corlaez
https://i.ibb.co/58ZBKbn/gemini.png <- my chat service via gemini
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corlaez
The one thing about gemini which I just go rogue about is requiring TLS always. I think it is kind of a blunder. For hosting a service over the internet, big YES. but otherwise I can see practical applications of the TLS-less version of gemini being useful
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corlaez
in fact I use some myself, as long as they are not exposed to the internet I believe it is fine.
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corlaez
I can't remember where I found this link (maybe shared to me here) but this was an interesting article (albeit a bit outdated): https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2023/05/28/the-gemini-protocol-seen-by-this-http-client-person/
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corlaez
a critique to gemini (the biggest change since that is that the protocol and gemtext are now separate specs and I think they have made them a little more specific and less ambiguous)
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corlaez
I don't think the closing the connection critique is fair, the protocol is oriented to the gemtext or file transfer use and gemtext explicitly won't initiate a request when rendering the page (unlike html)
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corlaez
Perhaps, I am dumb and don't know how expensive the connection opening really is, but if you transfer files and pages that take you enough seconds to read or observe
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corlaez
perhaps that makes reconnection infrecuent enough to be justifiable. (so long form blog better than one liner tweets)
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[tantek]
^ corlaez sounds like you've thought about this enough to write all that up into a blog post on your own site!
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aaronpk
otherwise it will be lost to the winds of the chat
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carrvo[d]
In my effort to cleanup and redeploy, I have, for reasons I can elabourate, the pattern `https://example.com/public/user/myuser/profile/index` and I am wondering if there is a nicer term to see than "public" (the rest will remain as is)? Any clever suggestions?
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osteophage
Main?
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aaronpk
that's...a lot
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aaronpk
you probably don't need that many path segments
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aaronpk
if youtube can make /@username work so can you
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carrvo[d]
I can add later a shorter path that resolves (in the background) to what I am configuring now. But, yes, I noticed how long it has gotten by reasons I can elabourate if you wish.
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carrvo[d]
Coyote++
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Loqi
Coyote has 1 karma over the last year
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osteophage
Thanks! I think I have two karma records now, though, since I have a different display name to my username. Or does Loqi know how to match the two?
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Loqi
you're welcome, osteophage
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osteophage
haha the person I meant to be thanking was carrvo, but sure, you too.
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corlaez
Yeah, that's super fair, I will write about it in my site :)
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[tantek]
premature hierarchy is the root of much unnecessary complexity
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carrvo[d]
Short elabouration: `https://example.com/<resource>/<repo>/<myuser>/<auth-bypass>/<file>` so every segment serves a technical purpose...and I like it.
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carrvo[d]
Long elabouration: `<resource>` tells Apache that dav_svn will serve the content; `<repo>` tells dav_svn which repo to serve from; `<myuser>` so that multiple people can have their own folder for that particular repo; `<auth-bypass>` so a user webpage and links can be used with IndieAuth without exposing any of their other files; `<file>` for the webpage.
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carrvo[d]
It is slick, but long. (And I can explore mod_rewrite to give a shorter constrained path later.)
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capjamesg[d]
The next FediForum has been announced: https://fediforum.org/
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capjamesg[d]
[edit] The next FediForum has been announced: https://fediforum.org/
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[tantek]
Interesting. Is this the first time they've explicitly included "Bluesky and AtProto" in the description?
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[tantek]
Have you participated in Fediforum in the past doesnm?
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doesnm
[tantek]: no, but seeing this site before iirc
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[tantek]
[snarfed] [manton] can you remember Fediforum mentioning Bluesky or ATP before?
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[snarfed]
no, I think this is a deliberate extension of at least the branding
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[snarfed]
cc [j12t]
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[tantek]
I for one welcome the larger tent
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[snarfed]
[tantek]++
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Loqi
[tantek] has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (145 in all channels)
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jak2k
I wouldn't consider AtProto Fedi because it relies on centralized services that are only run by Bluesky.
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starrwulfe
TBH I thought setting up a self hosted PDS would decentralize ATProto. Am I missing something?
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[tantek]
starrwulfe, there's been some long blog posts about how federated or not is ATProto/BlueSky, in particular the critique from cwebber is worth reading if you want to dive into details: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
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aaronpk
big email thread on the oauth list today veering into indieauth territory
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aaronpk
"What if I could use my DNS handle to log in anywhere?"
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[tantek]
aaronpk++ that IETF thread looks frustrating. It's like people are finally getting the desired UX, but absolutely ignoring that it's a solved problem
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[tantek]
what is a DNS Handle
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "DNS Handle" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "DNS Handle is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek]
^ aaronpk, feel free to stub a small page so it starts hitting Google search results 😂
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aaronpk
hmm, looks like it's a term from the atproto docs
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aaronpk
DNS handle is using a domain name as a user identifier, and is how user identifiers work in IndieAuth and ATProto
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sknebel
(indieauth strictly speaking is any URL, not domain level, or did that ever change in some recent iteration I'm forgetting about? but the common case is of course totally a domain)
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aaronpk
no still URL. i'm trying to remember when that changed because it used to be domain early on i thought
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sknebel
then that was before my time with Indieweb I think
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aaronpk
or was it just that the wiki used to reject any non-plain-domain URL?
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sknebel
I think the biggest identity change was the stuff around the redirects
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[tantek]
aaronpk a little of both. some policy, some technology
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sknebel
that your endpoint can identify you as a different URL than you entered
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[tantek]
we did some blocking of some subdomains for signing into the wiki
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aaronpk
it is interesting that bluesky has demonstrated that a lot of people do in fact want to identify as a domain name
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[tantek]
they went through a convoluted path (DIDs) to get there but they did demonstrate that
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aaronpk
their DID thing does solve the account migration problem nicely though, so you can rename your handle without having to move all your data
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aaronpk
unlike activitypub
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carrvo[d]
tantek++ that was a really interesting read on decentralization!
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Loqi
tantek has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (146 in all channels)
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carrvo[d]
aaronpk, isn't the IETF thread describing the start of IndieAuth? It is ironic because going down that line of thought contributed to me finding IndieAuth and I am notoriously bad at finding things on the internet.
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carrvo[d]
Do you want to know what else is ironic? I was really close to making https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc compatible with IndieAuth! (I did not want to dive into JWKS...)
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carrvo[d]
[edit] Do you want to know what else is ironic? I was really close to making https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc compatible with IndieAuth! (I did not want to dive into JWKS...)
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Loqi
[preview] [OpenIDC] mod_auth_openidc: OpenID Certified™ OpenID Connect Relying Party implementation for Apache HTTP Server 2.x
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Loqi
[preview] [OpenIDC] mod_auth_openidc: OpenID Certified™ OpenID Connect Relying Party implementation for Apache HTTP Server 2.x
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aaronpk
i'm kind of tempted to go bring a draft into OpenID that describes returning the user ID in the token response like IndieAuth so there's a way to do OIDC officially without JWKS or an extra request to the userinfo endpoint
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carrvo[d]
That would be neat!
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carrvo[d]
I think my specific issue was that the JWT needed to be signed and verified, and that JWKS was the easiest way to tell the module the information to verify. Anyway, I have the experiment stored if it of interest sometime.
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aaronpk
(you can also skip the JWT verification if you use the OpenID authorization code flow)
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carrvo[d]
I ended up figuring out mod_oauth2 instead. Much easier, albeit slightly incorrect.
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Loqi
[preview] [[tantek]] premature hierarchy is the root of much unnecessary complexity
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btrem
Yes, but immature hierarchy is the root of many broken links. Or a very complex rewrite system. ;-)
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