#dev 2025-03-24

2025-03-24 UTC
sebbu2, grufwub, bterry1, NaomiAmethyst, Andrew2, gRegor, gRegorLove_, webdev, GuestZero, SylvatiCodes, jonnybarnes, [KevinMarks], ttybitnik, bloot, nemonical and hacknorris joined the channel
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hacknorris weird question but yeah, i think of making a multiplayer game and hosting it on my (normal) laptop. will i be required to share my real address (country, city, street, etc…) if i do so? i'm from europe if something :-)
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hacknorris like a game/website in php
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[Jo] you should check the laws of your specific country, im not aware of any such EU law but a few countries DO require you to do that if you host/live there yeah
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hacknorris i mean general gdpr…
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[Jo] ooh okay
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Loqi yea
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[Jo] not that i know of, ive never heard that thats a gdpr requirement but i am not a lawyer
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hacknorris like i know there was loud when they saw that if you have a comment system on blog you need to, idk if that's not required on every server…
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[tantek] what is disclosure
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Loqi A disclosure is a bit of content, typically on a home page or in a footer or linked therefrom, that proactively discloses some aspect about the site that the site owner wants the reader to explicitly be aware of, such as affiliations, use of cookies, privacy policy, or terms of use https://indieweb.org/disclosure
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[tantek] disclosure << Impressum
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Impressum]]" to the "See Also" section of /disclosure https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=100562&oldid=100463
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[tantek] Impressum << disclosure
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Loqi ok, I added "[[disclosure]]" to a new "See Also" section of /Impressum https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=100563&oldid=59665
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[tantek] hacknorris, maybe if you are in Germany/Austria?
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[tantek] what is Impressum?
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Loqi An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indieweb.org/Impressum
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hacknorris [tantek] : poland
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[tantek] maybe see if you can find out if Polish publishers have any rules to follow like an Impressum?
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[tantek] would be interesting to document what you find out
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hacknorris idk, i've been asking not being asked
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hacknorris liiike for example that gem: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/gdpr-web-server-logs.html
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[tantek] yeah, good thing they say they are not a lawyer lol
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[tantek] so many half-baked takes about GDPR out there by non-lawyer detail-oriented folks who focus on a few aspects and ignore others. like whether something is personal use or too small to matter etc. also IANAL, yet plenty of folks who have looked into such things find that such posts are not helpful to people with personal sites
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hacknorris on reddit i have same anyway
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hacknorris comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/b05uvh/gdpr_cookie_banner_for_an_almost_static_website
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hacknorris and another one: https://www.reddit.com/r/gdpr/comments/1b7ff6v/do_i_actually_need_to_list_my_name_and_address_in/
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hacknorris and here: https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/8litn7/gdpr_for_hobby_websites …
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[tantek] lol reddits for any kind of legal advice seems like a very bad idea
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[jeremycherfas] Tell [mattl] Is there (or are there plans for) a plugin to scrobble from Navidrome to http://libre.fm?
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Zegnat From skimming the sysadmin answers there, those seem to line up fairly well with what I would say the current state of things is
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Zegnat If you are processing personal data, you probably have to comply. But complying is probably not hard. As long as you can give the people whos data you process (which I guess would be people who sign up for your game?) the rights that they are guaranteed under GDPR, I would not worry too much.
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Zegnat If you are hosting your own game, and probably not involving any third parties that you are transfering the data to, sounds to me like it would be pretty easy to comply?
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Zegnat AFAIK there is no requirement for you to publish any information about your privacy contact, just that the data subjects need to be able to get in touch with you.
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Zegnat But of course, the usual, I am not a lawyer and I am not your lawyer applies :P
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hacknorris Zegnat : the problem is sharing my home location…
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hacknorris and afaik that is required in gdpr (although i'm not sure…)
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[snarfed] I've never heard that GDPR requires you to publish a physical address
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hacknorris i heard
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[snarfed] (and I've looked into it a nontrivial amount, eg https://brid.gy/about#gdpr )
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hacknorris few times. it was about comment systems on blogs
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[snarfed] hacknorris could you tell us more than just hearsay? link(s)?
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hacknorris and i think it was about mail usage but i'm unsure now, it was loud on mastodon…
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[artlung] That may be Germany specific. [Jo] has mentioned it in HWCs.
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[snarfed] hmm ok
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[Jo] its probably best to search around or look at the law yourself and try to figure it out bc here no one seems to have heard of it
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[snarfed] Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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[snarfed] Jo++
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Loqi Jo has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (38 in all channels)
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[Jo] that part about addresses anyway yk
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Loqi Jo has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (39 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d] Jo++
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Zegnat Germany might have a requirement for a physical address you can be served at, yes. Though I am not sure that is a GDPR requirement. It is the Impressum requirement thing that [tantek] linked before. Where any commercial publisher must disclose certain information. And (from my understanding) ambulance chaser type lawyers had a period of going after blogs that they deemed had a commercial interest (did someone sponsor a post? did you
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Zegnat boost your freelance career with your blog? any straw to grasp at)
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Zegnat But it can also very well be that you do not need to have that, not even in Germany, if what you are doing is hosting a game server. As that is not publishing anything. *shrug*
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hacknorris i think is publishing. publishing a game. multiplayer for worse (with moderation by ip-banning only and removing spammy entries manually from db), game in type of alchemy/infinitecraft…
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hacknorris like maybe without accounts or anything but still…
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hacknorris text input accepts anything
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[snarfed] Zegnat sigh yup, reminds me of https://snarfed.org/2023-01-07_gdpr-troll-shakedown-from-mustafa-sisic-of-europe-data-protection
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[Jo] impressum is very tricky, most law websites suggest everyone have an impressum even without commercial interest. very annoying case of vaguely written law
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[Jo] but if you are not in a country that requires one you shouldnt have to worry about that
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Zegnat between the controller and subject (Annex page 35 of the English PDF here https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/article29/items/622227/en).
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Zegnat hacknorris: some sources I would trust here. It looks like you are most worried about Article 13 of GDPR on information you must provide to data subjects. You can find that article and a bunch of notes about it here: https://gdprhub.eu/index.php?title=Article_13_GDPR#.28a.29_Identity_and_contact_details_of_the_controller It looks like the Working Party from the EU interpreted 13.1(a) to mean contact details to enable communications
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Zegnat I cannot find an interpertation that says physical address needs to be there for a data subject to be able to contact a controller. So it should not be necessary. (Not under GDPR, but maybe by some other local law.)
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Zegnat hashtag-i-am-still-not-your-lawyer-but-i-happen-to-have-these-sources
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Zegnat [snarfed]: I am always in two minds about that. I simultaneously dislike the sort of shakedown rackets, but also want to see countries enforce GDPR better on companies *shrug*
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[tantek] does it matter where your site is hosted if you need an Impressum or not? E.g. is it only if your site is hosted in Germany?
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[tantek] related: anyone know / have a good non-Germany but still in EU (GDPR) webhost?
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Zegnat OVH (France) is the big one that everyone always mentions in the same breath as Hetzner (Germany)
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sknebel hosting location doesnt matter, no
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Zegnat [tantek]: https://european-alternatives.eu/categories might have your answer :)
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Zegnat But also depends on what a webhost is nowadays ... so many people expecting the vercels and fly.io where they can do “serverless”. I still have not heard people here really focus on a singular provider in the same way
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[tantek] Zegnat, nah, I was asking for direct knowledge, not indirect knowledge
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Zegnat In that case, my family email and (simple FTP’d PHP) website is on https://websupport.se/en/ which I believe is still fully EU owned and operated, and has never given us any issues
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[tantek] amazing! thank you and great to know
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Zegnat At work we use a local (Swedish) hosting provider, but I think they are limited to B2B :(
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[tantek] can you add websupport se to https://indieweb.org/web_hosting#Shared_Hosting ?
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Zegnat Sure
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Zegnat The other one I usually recommend people is one.com, which I believe is also Sweden based. One of those easy first-website-for-your-store sort of hostings with a 6 USD/month package.
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Zegnat [tantek]: wiki’d
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[tantek] Zegnat++ big thanks!
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Loqi Zegnat has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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pfych I wish there were non-us companies that could compete price wise with American hosts. I currently pay <$1/mo for my site & api on AWS. I could move it all on-prem and host locally but then load times for anyone not in Aus are extremely slow :/
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pfych Maybe I start up a cohosting space in my city haha
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Zegnat That is not happening without some serious restructured, if you ask me. < $1/month is already basically untenable just from a payment processing point of view. I would not even be able to offer you that if I tried :P
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[Jo] under one dollar! wow!
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Zegnat I was trying to see if Bunny could do that. But their monthly bill calculator bottoms out at $1, haha. So with something completely static and very low traffic numbers, I wonder if you might be able to hit that low there. They are Slovenia based, so EU operated: https://bunny.net/cdn/
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Zegnat CDN might be your best bet to get close to those numbers, where you hope your site is so small it will cost them virtually nothing to have your site distributed on their edge nodes together with their bigger customers.
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[artlung] Finally added search as a server side tool since my playlists got out of hand scale wise (and there's more to add, too) https://artlung.com/mixtapes/?q=Taylor because capjamesg[d] will appreciate it.
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capjamesg[d] [artlung]++
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Loqi [artlung] has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (25 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d] I recommend the song "I Can See You". It's got a unique tune.
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[mattl] [jeremycherfas] I've not heard of Navidrome but it looks like it already supports scrobbling. https://github.com/FoxxMD/multi-scrobbler/ also works with it according to reddit. Either of those could probably be made to work with http://Libre.fm fairly easily.
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artlung capjamesg[d] a fine addition. https://artlung.com/mixtapes/2025/
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artlung [edit] capjamesg[d] a fine addition. https://artlung.com/mixtapes/2025/
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pfych AWS free tier for static hosting/cdn is disgustingly good and it sucks that nobody can compete in the price range. Storage is free under 5gb and if you route access via CloudFront you get 1TB egress free monthly or 10 Million request monthly free, whatever expires first. I’m paying 50¢/domain for their DNS service since it simplifies a lot of
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pfych SSL & Routing stuff.
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pfych I’d love to move to a simple nginx setup but it’s impossible on a tiny tiny budget :(
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pfych + reduce reliance on USA based companies for my personal blog
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[mattl] have you seen http://bunny.net?
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pfych I haven't but I'll check it out! I've also got things like my webmention handler running on AWS and I did the math and I'd need to receive 1,540,880 webmention creation requests before my bill exceeded a dollar...
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pfych Economies of scale ;_;
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immibis i guess tiny tiny means zero, because otherwise, a VPS is $5 per month