#dev 2025-07-23
2025-07-23 UTC
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gRegor carrvo, Definitely not an Apache guru but I wonder if the "Require all denied" at the top level is inherited when it tries to display the "ErrorDocument 401 /multi/index"
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# gRegor So I wonder if it's something similar with your setup ErrorDocument 401 /multi/index -> sub-request -> "require all denied"
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[artlung] I'm looking at the schedule and planning by Comic-Con and seeing some accessibility themed panels. Mostly for filmed media, but still. https://comiccon2025.sched.com/?searchstring=accessibility
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[tantek] [mattl]++ great post. Cited on /migration
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[morganm] [tantek] I had a general question about CSS vs. CSS-in-JS, its not really specifically indieweb more just dev, would this interest you here potentially today? Im trying to be polite in case it feels like being asked to do work
# [morganm] That affirms what I expect and also believe. sharp 🤺 summary
# [morganm] (I know someone trying to convince their team not to do it, it feels like a work question, Ive found some resources to help them I think in the past few minutes)
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Loqi independent is one meaning of the “indie“ in IndieWeb, an occasional topic of debate like how independent do you need to be (in practice, see migration), and historically a reference to the past Independents Day site and movement https://indieweb.org/independent
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# carrvo gRegor it is worth my time to review that for sure. Seems like I forgot that part of the config in the pastebin since I did solve that in the past. Usually shows up pretty clean in the logs with "A had status B and during processing C had status D" or something.
# carrvo What seems bizzar to me is that one of the pages I queried last night gave me 401 (the way I wanted) but when I refreshed it this morning it gave 403...I have not looked at the logs yet but that is straight confusing--the config has not changed.
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# fausphorus Hullo 👀 Very new to website creation and management.
# fausphorus I'm wanting to host my own webcomic & art portfolio website, and not have to worry about a company's policy change or credit-card-coercion deciding my trans-identity+art is Too Adult and must be deleted from the web.
# fausphorus I'm not entirely sure where or how to begin, though? Most searches just direct me to larger company hosting, and I don't know who to trust or invest time into understanding
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
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[mattl] fausphorus: https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net is a host that has a very clear set of policies on what they will and will not host.
# fausphorus I'll take a look now 🤔
# Loqi Web hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indieweb.org/web_hosting
# fausphorus This does appeal to me; I know I don't expect my website to "Do well" until way down the road, and my ability to commit time and energy to its development is also inconsistent so having low periods that doesn't get charged sounds nice
# fausphorus Basically any website that relies on credit cards for financing (like say, tumblr), may end up being pressured by credit card companies to change their policy and ban/remove any content that those companies deem inappropriate
# fausphorus It's usually the "price" of taking advantage of free hosting space or other websites that offer people a place to post their works. I've made use of other bigger comic-hosting websites in the past, but I've had and seen far too many people (myself included) get our accounts and creations deleted without warning, so I want to be braced for the worst this time around
# fausphorus Yesss exactly
# gRegor [fluffy] has a comics section on their site https://beesbuzz.biz/comics/, I wonder what they're hosting with
# Loqi [preview] [fluffy] Blocked https://beesbuzz.biz/static/_img/a1/150f/20220522-blocked_dafa230d5c_960x480.jpg
# Loqi 🎴 comics are one of many types of posts that you can publish on your own site, and usually involve one or more comic image frames laid out sequentially, sometimes with characters drawn in each frame speaking to each other https://indieweb.org/comic
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[fluffy] My site templates are available at https://github.com/PlaidWeb/Publ-templates-beesbuzz.biz/ although the comic stuff is a little janky and would benefit from refactoring
# fausphorus I find myself always squinting a little bit at policies that talk about being reliable *as well as* protecting its clients, hosting "as long as it's legal" because genuinely, my existence as a transgender person has been continuously put under threat of being deemed "illegal" over and over again in multiple places. I know that the comic collective Hiveworks specializes in hosting and promoting LGBTQ comics, but their submissio
# fausphorus [fluffy]: I'll take a look!
# fausphorus (Also worth mentioning I'm like. Baby level of understanding how to build a website. I theoretically know that one can build or design a website offline locally on your PC before actually hosting it anywhere. Looking into how to do that is on the to-do list still.)
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# fausphorus I do worry about spending a lot of time trying to learn one coding language, only to find out later I was supposed to learn something else
# fausphorus Nearlyfreespeech does look pretty neat though, and if I understand correctly; I can make a website offline "locally" on my pc, and then when I have hosting, that's when I upload a copy of the website (or I guess project it?) onto the web?
# fausphorus Huzzah!
# fausphorus I don't know what those mean but I found Filezilla as a Windows user
# fausphorus Oh!
# fausphorus Would I be grabbing the Client download, or the Server download on FileZilla?
# fausphorus Aha, much appreciated
# fausphorus Hands-on works best, or at least any "evergreen" strategies. I've grown disillusioned and distrusting of any platform that tries to simplify (and obfuscate) how to set up things. (Distantly, "learning Linux" is also on there but that one feels more ambitious than setting up a simple website)
# fausphorus Real. I remember tinkering with them on and off ages ago and mostly being annoyed even then
# fausphorus Yeah! That does have a strong appeal, plus some immediate feedback on things working
# fausphorus It also sounds like learning Linux is going to be a side-effect even if it's not my main pursuit LOL
# Loqi GitHub Pages (aka gh-pages) is a static content hosting service offered by GitHub where you can host static sites https://indieweb.org/GitHub_Pages
# [mattl] There’s also https://simplewebserver.org for Windows
# fausphorus Ah? I'll admit my understanding of github as a whole is still comically bad; I've identified where the "download file" button is most of the time and I know that if I do some mysterious code sequences on Visual Studio Code, I can maintain my own Obsidian library through github, but if anything were to go awry there I'd be super stumped.
# fausphorus That being said, being able to mess around with mini test-websites would be a good idea. Anything like a place to host gaming maps or even RPG character stats and inventory
# IWDiscord <fausphorus>
# fausphorus What's Publ?
# [fluffy] Publ is the stack that http://beesbuzz.biz runs
# fausphorus Ah!
# [mattl] what is http://beesbuzz.biz?
# fausphorus ... What's a stack?
# [fluffy] https://sockpuppet.band/ and https://novembeat.com/ also run on publ
# fausphorus Ah!
# [fluffy] so for example, http://beesbuzz.biz runs on publ, which runs on flask, which runs on Linux and is routed by nginx/apache/whatever
# fausphorus So "Stack" is just shorthand for "The technological alchemy keeping this alive"
# fausphorus Oh good
# fausphorus surprised by the lack of frameworks and python?
# fausphorus genuinely I ended up in my own youtube rabbithole research to see how computers get made, down to where silicone comes from and gets manufactured. Genuinely fascinating. We built rocks that figured out how to switch lights on and off and get launched to the moon.
# fausphorus All good here; I saved the github page for future reference in case I do want to poke around, though seeking out a good html tutorial does sound like the solid first choice
# fausphorus Oh it was up there
# Loqi [preview] [gRegor] [fluffy] has a comics section on their site https://beesbuzz.biz/comics/, I wonder what they're hosting with
# Loqi Publ is an open source dynamic publishing system written in Python https://indieweb.org/Publ
# Loqi Flask is a minimal Python framework for writing web applications https://indieweb.org/flask
# fausphorus Funky
# [fluffy] anyway all of the questions about what my site runs would have been answered at https://indieweb.org/User:Beesbuzz.biz
# fausphorus On a slight aside, I'm glad I'm of the era of "Listen, I like my websites on my PC, screw mobile phone optimization" because that also saves me so much work on actually optimizing comic pages for the right visual ratio and format LOL
# sugardave fausphorus[d]: I've always been "desktop first". I _hate_ viewing web pages on my phone
# [fluffy] My suggestion would be 1. learn HTML to get your information up there, 2. learn basic CSS to make it look pretty, 3. learn some static site generator like 11ty to see how to automate updating things, 4. add microformats to make indieweb tools work with it, 5. maybe add an Atom feed if your static site generator doesn’t already
# fausphorus Real. There's also the less-programming-related but still "needs consideration" aspect of when one actually creates a comic; the ideal reading format for mobile would be to plan out panels in a "scroll" format one on top of the other -- but I grew up on *books* and I like the space and beats of page turners
# fausphorus [fluffy]: Saving this in my notes!
# sugardave I would also suggest Astro as a static site generator, but I've never used 11ty so can't give a comparison
# [fluffy] yeah I’m a bit annoyed at the trend towards mobile-first comic website like tapas or whatever. In my earliest webcomics I separated each panel out into its own image so that it could be wrapped/flowed by the browser to fit the screen but that limited the stuff I could do with panel and bubble design.
# [fluffy] astro doesn’t seem to have an http://indieweb.org page
# fausphorus Yesss. The kind of panels my existing webcomic experiment has, does a lot of panel-breaking, and the shape of the panels themselves alters the "speed" of perceived time or moments so I'm very protective of that
# sugardave [fluffy]: indeed. I've been kicking it around since late 2023, but have finally gotten much better at it
# fausphorus Scroll-style comics have their place but I just don't want to make my current project tied to it. I might use a smaller one-off or more "gag" supplementary materials for scrolls
# fausphorus Yessss 👏 important for both drama or comedic beats
# sugardave [fluffy]: well, it can be for sure. I think I liked the fact that it was easy to come from a React framework and have a lot of things just work. I also seem to have a particular proclivity for over-engineering thigns, so maybe that's why lol
# fausphorus I'm proud that I managed to hit around 130 pages before the pandemic threw my rhythm off into hiatus, and I was also suffering from "feature bloat" in terms of how much work I would do per page, making it unsustainable for a weekly update
# [fluffy] by “recently” I guess I mean “two years ago,” what even is time. https://plush.city/@fluffy/110951292336917780
# sugardave what is time
# Loqi “Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.” — The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy https://indieweb.org/time
# fausphorus Ironically I've tried to move on but it keeps haunting me like a specter, or coming back up into conversation despite my efforts. At this point it feels faster to just get back into it to put that ghost to rest instead of pretending it's donen
# fausphorus *done, rather
# fausphorus I will say though, I'm weirdly glad for the hiatus too, because it's given me enough time to consider a better strategy for comicking. Both for web-hosting, page development, and rebranding the whole comic from a fanfic into my own IP
# fausphorus I've eyed Neocities and fiddled a little on there
# sugardave Astro has the ability to do full SSG, full SSR, or a hybrid approach. It can also integrate multiple UI frameworks and display components from them in a single page, so you can have a React SSR component for a section and a Svelte component for another section. Each of those components can be either static or server-rendered in a "server island". You can make it as simple or complex as you want/need it to be
# fausphorus Right??
# [fluffy] @btrem pelican isn’t super well-known. I only know about it because that’s what https://eev.ee/ uses
# fausphorus When people say young folks nowadays don't know how to actually use computers, no wonder why; all the learning processes have been gutted and replaced by "click here for website"
# sugardave fausphorus[d]: oh man, I'm starting to get that "perfect side hustle for Gen-Xers" feeling....
# fausphorus Brrr
# sugardave btrem: but javascript only has nice things to say about you 😄
# sugardave [mattl]: two things that perform the same utility: package management
# sugardave you either use npm or yarn, never the twain should meet
# sugardave I mean, you can always delete the lockfile of one or the other and use the other
# sugardave btrem: probably the same, I just used different words
# sugardave `npm` is literally "Node package manager"
# sugardave that's just a preference thing....you'd run the npm command if you were wanting to package it all up locally before, say, building a static site and deploying it or just use the link to download the minified version when the client makes the request
# sugardave it's because of Node.js honestly. it blurs the lines between server and client js and adds quite a bit of complexity
# sugardave [mattl]: also true
# sugardave I cut my teeth using npm while working for Palm creating the Enyo and Enact frameworks. There were a LOT of project dependencies for those. So, I am comfortable using it. But for stuff like personal websites? Probably don't ever need to have a `pacakge.json` and hundreds of dependencies unless you just absolutley want to
# sugardave indeed
# sugardave we like to capitalize it as webOS 😉
# sugardave does his last name start with a B?
# sugardave I still have a couple of Pre 3s around. And a bunch of TouchPads
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[KevinMarks] @fausphorus if you're already a little familiar with github and a local code editor like VDCode you could try the github pages starter https://github.com/indieweb/blank-gh-site
# sugardave somewhere I even have a webOS watch prototype that LG killed off
# fausphorus [KevinMarks]: *Barely* familiar, I need a lot of step by step hand-holding on using anything on github LOL
# fausphorus >googles VDCode
# fausphorus Oh that I do have
# sugardave webOS was awesome, but "too slow" when using web presentation layer compared to Android/iPhone. We came to market first with wireless induction charging and the card metaphor for multitasking
# sugardave webOS still lives on in LG televisions, though
# sugardave Samsung purchased Tizen from Intel because it was a blatant knock-off of webOS lol
# sugardave I will stop polluting the chat with webOS nostalgia now 😄
# fausphorus Oh hey genuinely useful for me to learn, finally clocked understanding for "telling the program what type of code you're using helps it treat the code properly" for VScode. Somehow didn't clock I could just use that for writing html https://www.educative.io/answers/how-to-create-a-website-using-html-css-and-js-in-vs-code
# fausphorus [edit] Oh hey genuinely useful for me to learn, finally clocked understanding for "telling the program what type of code you're using helps it treat the code properly" for VScode. Somehow didn't clock I could just use that for writing html https://www.educative.io/answers/how-to-create-a-website-using-html-css-and-js-in-vs-code
# sugardave fausphorus[d]: wait until you learn about `prettier` and `eslint` >_>
# fausphorus I certainly don't know them right now!
# sugardave the longer you don't need to care about them the better, in my opinion
# fausphorus why curse me with exposing their concepts to me now? What hast thou done
# sugardave I am chaotic neutral, what can I say?
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# fausphorus And now back to the unexciting world of wrangling spreadsheets for work
# fausphorus I appreciate the assist thus far though!
# [KevinMarks] I hate what VSCode does with <p> tags. When I add one to create a paragraph, it puts the subsequent text outside the paragraph
# [KevinMarks] Yes, turning <p>into <p>|</p> (the | showing cursor position) is weird xhtml evangelism