#dev 2025-09-23

2025-09-23 UTC
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Kolev Hi all. Using Readable CSS. It has a quaint charm to it. I loove it.
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[tantek] this post from girlontheweb resonates a lot for me: https://bubblegum.girlonthemoon.xyz/articles/why-the-hell-are-we-writing-in-markdown-when-semantic-html-is-this-epic
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[tantek] sorry, girlonthemoon*
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Kolev Markdown was orig. designed to be used in conjunction with HTML.
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Kolev It would be cool if more SSGs would support mixed Markdown and HTML.
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aaronpk really there are just a couple markdown features i would like to port to HTML. the backticks for <code>/<kbd> being one of them
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aaronpk and * for bullet lists
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aaronpk other than that i would rather write HTML
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[tantek] aaronpk, yeah I've been figuring out what that markdown-feature-subset is for a while. agreed with * for bullet lists. I would add line breaks for actual breaks (except I prefer to treat trailing space line break as a soft-wrap break, I firmly believe Markdown got this wrong).
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girlonthemoon tantek, yeah i'm very much like all in on HTML versus markdown. i'll use markdown when i have to but if i have the chance to use HTML then i WILL use it haha
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[tw2113] I do like #'s for headings
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girlonthemoon [tw2113], same, i think a lot of basic markdown is very intuitive but when you need to do more detailed markup then that's when i want HTML lol
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[tantek] girlonthemoon, as an HTML fan, you might be interested in the informal "8-bit" challenge I posted last week, try making a fully functional web page in 255 bytes of HTML or less (with optional ≤255 bytes of CSS, optional ≤255 bytes of JS) e.g. https://tantek.com/8bit.html
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girlonthemoon ohhh that sounds so fun tantek!!! i'm not sure if i have the time but hopefully i can find it. it'd be a nice addition on my site next to the page i made for HTML day!
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[tantek] blog post about it is the first post linked on that page, which also links to a bunch of other "8-bit" examples at the end
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[tantek] it was a fun challenge with constraints to see figure out what was possible in so few bytes, and what kind of "shortcuts" could/would work in an HTML file
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girlonthemoon i viewed the source, it's interesting how line breaks seem to add or subtract from the size of a page
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[tantek] yes! my biggest discovery was that I could close <a> tags with just </>!
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girlonthemoon i noticed that! so wild
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trwnh [tantek] re: discussion in #indieweb about octothorpes vs other protocols for indexing tags -- i think it's pretty clear that you can do the same thing with webmention or websub but there really is one difference noting which is that most people don't know how to make their own POST requests easily or to automate that
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trwnh if i had to set up bridgy fed, i would have to also POST a webmention every time i published a new post/page, and then it would go out to all my followers, which might not be what i want -- i have to think about every server that will end up with a copy of my post
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trwnh whereas a preload fetch would be something that could be included in the HTML of any page (or generator template) and i don't have to make any POST requests
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trwnh i don't think that's necessarily the best solution but it is a tradeoff worth considering
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trwnh even if the act of making a POST request is made as easy as clicking a button on a web form or whatever, i'd still have to remember to do that every time i made a new post unless i automated that somehow
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trwnh compared to just uploading some static html somewhere and you're done
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trwnh personally though i don't think i care to do either of those things at the moment, i'm not at the point yet where i have to worry about discovery
Tiffany, gRegor, gRegorLove_, vidak, Saige_Leah, GWG, [jeremycherfas], [Murray], jak2k, GuestZero, [0x3b0b]_, cow_2001, starletvania, daisydenim, sebbu2 and rozodru joined the channel
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[schmarty] Octothorpes' link preload thing is clever but it's also a privacy violation (tracks visitors) and a waste of resources (every visitor pings the link but it only needs to happen once per post).
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[Eddie] Hello everyone,
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[Eddie] I’m currently working in the IT field and looking for a reliable coworker to collaborate with efficiently. This is a great opportunity to grow together and increase profits.
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[Eddie] *Preferred qualifications:*
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[Eddie] • Full-time availability
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[Eddie] • Fluent in English(native accent preferred)
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[Eddie] If you don’t meet all of these requirements, don’t worry — I have several options available. I look forward to hearing from you and discussing details further.
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[Eddie] • 2+ years of development experience
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[snarfed] trwnh minor point, but just so you know, Bridgy Fed also supports (and polls) RSS and Atom feeds. webmention isn't required
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[artlung] https://inclusivedesign24.org/2025/ Inclusive Design 24 looks like it could be quite a good event.
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zachary.kai Can anyone work out what I'm doing wrong here? I can't get it recognize my h-card. https://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https://zacharykai.net/
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[snarfed] your h-card-content (and h-card-image) classes are the problem, they parse as separate child items. see https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://zacharykai.net/ . you probably want to remove them
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zachary.kai Thank you kind sir! That's been puzzling me for weeks. I really appreciate it, it's fixed now.
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[manton] Sent a message to the SWIGC mailing list to ask that we scrap email-style fediverse handles and use domain names, ready for the flame war… 🤪
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[manton] SWICG too. Acronyms are hard.
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[snarfed] 🍿
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glitzeor4444 [artlung]: Omg thank you, I forgot about this! Will stream this while painting the new sleepout
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capjamesg [manton] Do you have an idea for a replacement?
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capjamesg for handles
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capjamesg Re: SWICG. I liked SocialCG too.
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[manton] [capjamesg] Just domain names and subdomains, basically like Bluesky does it. `@manton.org` instead of `@manton@manton.org`. More IndieWeb-friendly, in my opinion.
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capjamesg How would that work if I'm @example@example.com on a multi-user instance?
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capjamesg @example.example.com?
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trwnh broadly speaking you have 3 options, either you use an address or a uri or a fqdn
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[manton] Right, just `@you.example.com` if you’re on a server shared with other people.
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[manton] If we use subdomains, it’s not a big leap to allow people to rename their username to their own personal domain name too. In the same way we’ve had people use `http://you.tumblr.com` or `http://you.micro.blog` and then switch to `http://mysite.com` forever.
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[manton] But if the standard is `@you@example.com`… You are sort of always stuck.
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capjamesg Interesting.
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[manton] Here’s a copy of my email: https://www.manton.org/notes/665f1bdf58698f7df1793be274c1f0.html
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[snarfed] related: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/22213 , https://nips.nostr.com/5#showing-just-the-domain-as-an-identifier
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Loqi [preview] [Ciantic] #22213 Feature: Allow to use domains as handles, e.g. @domain.tld with webfinger acct:*@domain.tld
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capjamesg This is a thoughtful proposal.
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capjamesg [manton]++
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Loqi [manton] has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (32 in all channels)
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mandaris Are you using irc or discord to connect?
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trwnh personally i favor uris because you can do more with them. i also don't want to rely on dns forever. giving people fqdns is better than tying them to a "host" though
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capjamesg mandaris[d] Discord.
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trwnh i do wish we could reframe the problem though because what we really need here is a better and broader understanding and recognition of aliases and base-relative references
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[KevinMarks] I like that the EU president has the handle @vonderleyen.ec.europa.eu
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capjamesg [tantek]++ for CASSIS' auto_link function 🙌
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Loqi [tantek] has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (154 in all channels)
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gRegor HTML `lang` question: is `lang="en"` sufficient or is the subtag required, like en-US? I got a report that Bing complains about just "en"
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[Al_Abut] (Catching up on yesterday) [tantek] I’ve been using MDX as a middle ground between markdown and HTML. Plus my Astro framework can accept html in just plain markdown files too, don’t know how standard that is amongst frameworks.
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[Al_Abut] I find either extreme to be too limiting - pure html is often unreadable, whereas markdown alone doesn’t work for anything more complicated than a page that looks like a basic Word doc from the 80’s.
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gRegor I would have expected W3C Validator to show something about that if the lang wasn't quite right, or at least a "warning". Maybe Bing is just being picky. Not sure I've seen Google Search Console complain about that.
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[artlung] lang is *just* for language. It's not meant to include country localization in the way you're asking. usually seo error reports like that come with a "read more about why" type link.
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gRegor Hm, MDN at least has examples with the subtag, though yeah haven't found anything about it being *required* https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Global_attributes/lang
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[artlung] there has to be a *reason* to put fuller locale information into a page. often when using something along the lines of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Intl/Locale or choosing translations.
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gRegor Which of course, the example could be wrong. I'm being lazyweb at the moment, haven't seen the actual Bing report yet, need to sign in and check :)
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gRegor I'm also referring just to the root `html` tag, not getting into different langs on parts of the page. I definitely lean towards lang=en should be sufficient.
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gRegor > "A BCP 47 language tag is a string of characters that precisely specifies a human language in terms of the basic language, but also optionally the writing system and dialect. For example, en specifies English, but en-GB and en-US more precisely specify British English and American English, respectively." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/BCP_47_language_tag
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] the reason for warnings about lang=en is that it was included as n so many default / copy paste templates that there are TONS of non-English pages that use it, thus making it useless in practice for any consuming code
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[tantek] sorry [KevinMarks] that was meant for [gRegorLove] (gRegor)
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gRegor Ah, that tracks
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[tantek] The primary reason (use-case) for using the dialect specific language codes is spelling differences
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[tantek] The region-based naming is due to the dialects themselves being named after the regions. It doesn't mean the page is served from that region or the author lives in that region or any other location semantics
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[tantek] I believe there are even different dialects (for spelling!) for GB, Canada, NZ, maybe Australia too
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[tantek] Another use-case is screen readers which may pick a different voice or voice with different accents for pronunciation differences
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[tantek] So yes in short avoid lang=en, but do specify a particular lang=en-* for the specific dialect of English that you yourself are writing in
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gRegor Ahh. Nice, thank you!
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gRegor Yeah, this project is actually using AU, GB, and US currently. Will be an interesting experiment with `hreflang` too
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gRegor what is language
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Loqi language may refer to human (or natural) languages or computer (often programming) languages https://indieweb.org/language
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gRegor Nice, I see the screen reader note there
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[tantek] Oh good that we already noted that!
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gRegor I should have looked there first
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[tantek] What is lang?
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Loqi language may refer to human (or natural) languages or computer (often programming) languages https://indieweb.org/lang
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[tantek] Cool
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Loqi agreed.
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gRegor How to markup indicates the subtypes though not explicitly the "avoid just en"
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[tantek] There are probably some old blog posts about why lang=en is bad but they may be hard to find at this point
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[tantek] Also bad is templates with default metadata unless it's something blatant like FIXMEFIXME
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gRegor `lang=l33t` it is! ;)
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trwnh lang=und
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capjamesg lang=this-is-me-trying
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gRegor lang=its-me-hi-im-the-problem
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Caleb Slowly getting Zola off the ground. Applied to be on Codeberg Pages with automated builds.
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capjamesg Ah you got the reference gRegor!
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gRegor Haha, I didn't actually at first, but it sounds familiar now you mention it :)
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capjamesg [artlung] https://inclusivedesign24.org/2025/schedule/ looks great! I think I'm going to listen in on a few of these talks.
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gRegor I just figured a swift reference would be appreciated
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capjamesg Always!
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[manton] [snarfed] Thanks for the reminder about that Mastodon issue. I had forgotten about that discussion.
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rossabaker gRegor: Thanks for those parser links. Oddly, I don't see any hits in my logs on those. I wonder if there's a cache involved there.
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gRegor Welcome!
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Caleb Oh wait, I should have mentioned Zola in here. Anybody use it?
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gRegor what is Zola
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Loqi Zola is a static site generator written in Rust that has been used by some community members on their personal site https://indieweb.org/Zola
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gRegor Newer page, but there's a past example on there and one current one ^ You could reach out to Mike
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gRegor Looks like they're using `/posts/notes/[id]`, example: https://mikerockwood.com/posts/notes/77e1286de651/
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gRegor Oh, not a newer page, but recently updated.
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Caleb It seems I'll have to create a dir for each kind of post, so might as well put them at /.
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Caleb So do /blog/ and /notes/.
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