#dev 2025-12-17

2025-12-17 UTC
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[tantek]3 W3C new Social Web WG charter is up for AC vote. So if your company is a member of W3C, ask your AC rep to vote for it! Updating all prior RECs with errata is in scope, including Webmention, Micropub, and WebSub
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[tantek]3 ^ aaronpk (or are you the AC rep?)
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aaronpk I am not, but I talk regularly with the guy who is
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ulhar4409 so a client could put, say, mp-content-type = text/org? (how would this be specified in a json request?)
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ulhar4409 (i don't imagine your particular micropub server(s) neccesarily support org in particular, but mine will)
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[tantek]3 aaronpk the AC rep vote can also make a comment so you could specifically say you support seeing errata incorporated revisions of particular specs for example
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gRegor ulhar4409, here's an example with the mp-slug command: https://quill.p3k.io/docs/editor. It would be similar that, and whatever content-type is correct for org mode
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gRegor JSON request at the bottom
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gRegor so more like `"mp-content-type": ["text/org"]`
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gRegor what is org mode
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Loqi Org mode is for keeping notes, maintaining todo lists, planning projects, and authoring documents with a fast and effective plain-text system https://indieweb.org/Org_mode
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ulhar4409 ok i think i understand
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gRegor They're basically same syntax as properties of the h-entry you're sending, but anything with `mp-` prefix is for a command to the server
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gRegor At a skim, it does look like the spec could maybe use an example of a JSON request with mp- commands in it. Think I only see form-encoded examples with those.
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ulhar4409 another topic, i am thinking of setting something up so that my "wiki" stuff can be kept on my devices then uploaded via micropub; are there any known setups that do something like this?
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[tantek]3 micropub for wiki-like content syncing is interesting
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ulhar4409 probably just an action=update request targeting the page content would be fine? (and create if the page doesn't exist)
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rossabaker If I'm implementing an IndieAuth client, and there's no "indieauth-metadata" URL from the user, what should I infer as the issuer identifier? Or do I skip the check in that case?
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[morgan] I tried to write a balanced chill article about a cool basic accessibility feature you may be familiar with. It's on my website
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[morgan] https://www.morganwebdev.org/posts/skip-link/
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Loqi [preview] [© Morgan Murrah - morganwebdev.org 2025] About Skip Links
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[morgan] I shared the link above to my friend who uses a screen reader and they said that the code blocks for some reason switched voices in Mac VoicOver. Like it was reading the default voice and then the HTML snippet was read differently. Super fun. Constant journey to learn about this stuff
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[morgan] Now I wonder what the voice of HTML is...
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itskalvaxus Interesting post about screen readers with actual examples https://front-end.social/@sarajw/115734302679841161
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[tantek] Sigh
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[tantek] oh boy, just got the upgrade prompt from Dreamhost "Upgrade to PHP 8.5 Today" — has anyone upgraded their personal site to using PHP 8.5 and if so any hiccups? (what software are you running)
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[social] Staying on PHP 8.3 for the moment.
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[schmarty] There's an 8.5????
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aaronpk news to me
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aaronpk as of less than a month ago https://www.php.net/archive/2025.php#2025-11-20-3
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capjamesg https://calendar.perfplanet.com/2025/nolojs-reducing-js-workload-html-css/ is a good read on how to HTML/CSS over JS for various interactive use cases.
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capjamesg [edit] https://calendar.perfplanet.com/2025/nolojs-reducing-js-workload-html-css/ is a good read on how to HTML/CSS over JS for various interactive use cases.
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[tantek] PHP8-- as noted in HWC EU
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Loqi PHP8 has -1 karma in this channel over the last year (-3 in all channels)
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aaronpk Haha why
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[tantek] Because it is my biggest regret from 2025 and upgrading to it broke my website in ways I still haven't been able to fix, because the folks in charge of PHP7->8 abandoned the level of backward compat that prior major versions stuck with
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aaronpk ah bummer, yeah they have been a bit aggressive in 8
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[tantek] I should have just kept paying the $5/mo. PHP7 maintenance fee
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Loqi totally
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aaronpk gives Loqi a PHP upgrade
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Loqi eats the PHP upgrade
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GWG aaronpk: That reminds me, I need your advice on a php8 upgrade.
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gRegor I'm mixed on that. They deprecate things and announce they'll be removed in future major versions. Most of what I've seen has been good, like the original mysql API deprecated in 5.5 and removed in 7. Good motivation to migrate to PDO.
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gRegor just as an example, I know you're not using a db ;)
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GWG aaronpk: I want to try to learn about the framework you used for Compass and maybe try to get it working with PHP8 to pay it forward. How difficult would that be?
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gRegor what is compass
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Loqi Compass is a location tracking server that stores data in flat files and provides a map view and API to integrate location data with a personal website https://indieweb.org/Compass
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gRegor what is laravel
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Loqi Laravel is a PHP framework that is used to build IndieWeb websites and tools https://indieweb.org/Laravel
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gRegor what is lumen
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lumen" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "lumen is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor GWG, upgrade guide: https://lumen.laravel.com/docs/11.x/upgrade It's on 5.1 now, though, so not sure if easier to go through all that or migrate it to a regular Laravael project instead
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aaronpk i think lumen is officially deprecated, but you can use laravel to get the same kind of thing
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gRegor I'd lean towards Laravel, since Lumen is only getting security updates
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aaronpk i'm more annoyed at the package ecosystem than the language itself at this point
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aaronpk it seems like most package authors these days are far more willing to drop support for older php versions faster than they have in the past, so now trying to upgrade a project involves at least a day of figuring out compatibility and rewriting stuff to use the new version of a package just to get the baseline working
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aaronpk and far too many packages are happy to rewrite their entire API surface because they suddenly don't like a design decision they made in the previous version
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gRegor yeah :/
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aaronpk like cool i'm glad you refactored and are happier about your life decisions now but now i have to go change every single instance of calling this function
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GWG That sounds hard. But I want to contribute to a project I use
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GWG So, I might steel my courage
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GWG And I know jeremycherfas can't be the only person.
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GWG who has problems due the compat issues
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[tantek] aaronpk, that sounds like a good way to discourage people from using your framework
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gRegor I guess the thing to weigh is: how long will Lumen continue to get bug fixes, and is it worth spending the time getting Compass up to that latest version
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aaronpk yes and it has in fact discouraged me quite a lot. the last project I started I wrote a simple URL router with no library and am using basic php includes instead of a templating framework too
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aaronpk basically at this point i'm treating package managers as a way to bring in specific functionality but not using them for the foundation of the app
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GWG aaronpk: So what would you suggest if I try to contribute to Compass?
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[tantek] that is a very solid methodology for considering package managers
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[tantek] in general I am very suspicious of dependencies
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[tantek] experience has taught me to distrust them. case in point, the folks that broke backcompat in PHP8
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GWG It is sounding like it would be a bigger job than I thought though
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GWG This may require more thought.