#dev 2026-01-04

2026-01-04 UTC
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aaronpk I'm curious what guide he's reading, we should make sure the various markup options are listed so people don't think you have to do it like this https://lounge.town/@nathanu/115833377716288090
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[tantek] aaronpk it's not possible to list "the various markup options" because there are hundreds (would have said infinite but that would be exaggerating)
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[tantek] the disconnect is that some devs (a minority in my experience) look at markup examples and ASSSUME it HAS TO be one of those explicitly rather than seeing the broader pattern across the examples as a set of possibilities that they can explore
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[tantek] like basically, I don't know how to teach "copy paste" devs. and I blame Stack Overflow for teaching such bad habits (as opposed to understanding how markup actually works)
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[tantek] usually on a case by case when someone complains like that, the follow-up is to ask "what does your existing markup look like" and then help walk them through adding microformats markup TO THEIR EXISTING MARKUP
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[tantek] without thinking they need to "copy paste" an example from somewhere
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[tantek] I can only assume vibe-coding is making this worse — lots more folks "learning to be "copy paste" devs
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[tantek] "learning"*
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[tantek] I sympathize greatly with "don't want this extra cruft in my markup" however. That's how I feel about OGP, Twitter Cards, metacrap in general, SchemaOrg JSON-LD data islands etc.
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[artlung] There are a few “how little markup can make an h feed” articles/posts. Emphasis on lightweight is solid.
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artlung Come to think of it I have a few pages where I have h-feeds but I don't really expose the fact that they could be parsed that way (and to be honest I've not checked their overall quality) but maybe I'll add some links to them on my "feeds" page.
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[tantek] what is h-feed discovery
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "h-feed discovery" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "h-feed discovery is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] huh thought we had that. it's definitely a (proposed) thing
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[tantek] h-feed discovery is a proposed method for publishers to indicate the presence of an h-feed on a page (or representing a page) through the use of a [[rel-alternate]] link with <code>type="application/mf2+html"</code> which may link to a fragment within the same page. See: [[application/mf2+html]] for further details and discussion.
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] since the last time we discussed this, I am leaning towards preferring "application/mf2+html" over "text/mf2+html". WDYT [snarfed] and GWG? If at least you two agree with that, I update the respective page accordingly
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[tantek] also curious about capjamesg opinion on h-feed discovery in the context of his recent blog post https://jamesg.blog/2026/01/03/turn-a-list-into-a-web-feed
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GWG Well, being as it is text readable, it is probably more accurate.
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[snarfed] hmm yeah. I don't really know the IANA history and ecosystem as much as you probably [tantek], but if text/html is the base, switching to application seems surprising
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[snarfed] is there precedent for a "subtype" changing base like that, eg a/b and x/c+b?
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[artlung] Would `application/ld+json` meet that criteria? (Encased in script tags and in line on pages)
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[tantek] GWG "text readable" is not what "text/" means
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GWG [tantek]: I should go read up on types then
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[tantek] Yeah don't try to intuit English meaning from anything IETF
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GWG [tantek]: I end up in rabbit holes of fun all the time based on comments here
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[tantek] application/html is the same as text/html except the application/ version declares UTF8 encoding (by default) instead of ISO-8859-1
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[tantek] [snarfed] ^
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[tantek] The use case here is appealing to feed readers which already do link alternate discovery for feeds then check the "type" attribute for whether it is RSS or Atom so they already have code for that
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[tantek] Both types are (different) "application/..." types
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[tantek] So if we add one for h-feed then it's something both publishers and feed reader consumers are already setup to support with a minor bit of code (for adding discovery)
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[tantek] Similarly many added support for JSONFeed
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[tantek] What is JSONFeed
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Loqi JSON Feed is a feed file in JSON format https://indieweb.org/jsonfeed
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gRegor h-feed discovery << [[text/mf2+html]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[text/mf2+html]]" to the "See Also" section of /h-feed_discovery https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=107295&oldid=107294
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gRegor text/mf2+html << [[h-feed discovery]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[h-feed discovery]]" to the "See Also" section of /text/mf2%2Bhtml https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=107296&oldid=104360
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gRegor !tell capjamesg on your h-feed post, I think you want `dt-published` but have `p-published`. Great post!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[KevinMarks] That list to h-feed example reminds me of using the XOXO microformat parser (which turns lists and <dl> into json, with some special treatment for links)
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[morgan] I ordered a new microphone, its an FX microphone, and a lot of the config available of the microphone (incredibly exciting) is in JSON (Not as exciting I guess)
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[Al_Abut] [tantek] not wanting to add “extra cruft in my markup” may have been one of the mental blockers I had towards microformats, the same kind of allergic reaction I have towards the overloading of classes from Tailwind for example. And not just for using it but more importantly for being open to whatever concrete benefits it may have. At least for Tailwind I understand what it is conceptually.
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] interesting, similarly, "not wanting to add extra cruft in my markup" was the number one turnoff for Tailwind techniques. It's a massive pollution of the class attribute going completely against the separation of markup and style.
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GuestZero huh, didn't really follow web design trends recently and you probably know about this, but seems pretty cool...
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GuestZero https://webkit.org/blog/17660/introducing-css-grid-lanes/
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[KevinMarks] That is a nice answer to the syntax problem. Much clearer than previous iterations
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[jeremycherfas] Great post capjamesg++
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Loqi capjamesg has 51 karma in this channel over the last year (207 in all channels)
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[jeremycherfas] Adresses something I have been thinking about a bit.
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capjamesg Thank you!
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Loqi capjamesg: gRegor left you a message 12 hours, 26 minutes ago: on your h-feed post, I think you want `dt-published` but have `p-published`. Great post!
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capjamesg gRegor++ will fix!
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Loqi gRegor has 36 karma in this channel over the last year (122 in all channels)
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capjamesg [social] I encountered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_foraging recently -- an interesting concept!
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capjamesg [edit] [social] I encountered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_foraging recently -- an interesting concept!
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[social] [capjamesg] interesting, I like the idea of information foraging. I like the work of Card and Pirolli. In the mid-00s Ed Chi would track my travels to the Bay Area and request time to come by PARC to chat about not only tagging systems and making sense of them as part of their foraging model, but my Model of Attraction, which is less metaphor than foraging and covers the full information life cycle from a personal perspective from seeking,
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[social] finding, holding on to, reuse and repurpose, and holding on to that output. Ed moved from PARC to Google to continue doing interesting research.
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[tantek] blacklight, there are a bunch of ActivityPub implementations that natively (by default) also support Webmentions
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[tantek] the most obvious is http://micro.blog
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[tantek] the other is the confusingly named and unrelated microblogpub
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[tantek] what is microblog.pub
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Loqi microblog.pub is self-hostable, single-user, IndieWeb friendly microblogging open source software that supports many IndieWeb building blocks such as IndieAuth, microformats2, Micropub, Webmention, and also ActivityPub https://indieweb.org/microblog.pub
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blacklight [tantek]: thanks for the tip - I had only tangentially heard of micro.blog, I didn't know that it supported so many protocols already!
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[tantek] microblog++
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Loqi microblog has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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blacklight for now I'm working on an implementation of Webmentions for madblog, my own blogging platform https://git.platypush.tech/blacklight/madblog. The reason is exactly that I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of implementing ActivityPub from scratch just to support some open forms of content engagement
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[tantek] makes sense!
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blacklight but since I've already touched some federation parts on WriteFreely my thought was to bring it there too - or at least discuss potential interest
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blacklight the more the merrier :)
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[snarfed] blacklight also check out https://fed.brid.gy/
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[artlung] Detects some css hacks, but not all. Not ye olde box model hack. I replied as such. But a fun exercise even if incomplete. Added to the FrESH to study list.
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[artlung] https://www.alwaystwisted.com/relicss/
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[artlung] https://front-end.social/@sturobson/115837390081835595
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Loqi [preview] [Stu Robson] The dust of decades settles on your keyboard as you push aside lines of vendor prefixes Your fedora casts shadows over cryptic CSS hacks from another era. "This belongs in a museum" you mutter ReliCSS: The front-end archaeologist's tool for navigat...
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[tantek] lol
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[artlung] Also, it inspired me to link “box model“ to “CSS hacks” on Wikipedia. Just took advantage of some existing text.
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