#meta 2018-05-02

2018-05-02 UTC
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tantek lol we have /down /downtime and /outages
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tantek no sorry just /outage no plural
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tantek but still - 3 pages lol
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tantek I think this may be my fault. cleaning up my mess
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grant.codes edited /events/2018-05-01-homebrew-website-club (+132) "/* Photos */ Add Baltimore photo" (view diff)
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martymcgui.re edited /events/2018-05-01-homebrew-website-club (+98) "/* Blog Posts */" (view diff)
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martymcgui.re edited /events/2018-05-01-homebrew-website-club (-21) "/* Baltimore MD */ oops fb posse copy" (view diff)
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schmarty grantcodes++ for coming to HWC Baltimore!
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Loqi grantcodes has 3 karma in this channel (19 overall)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@cathieleblanc I can't find it now, but it seems like you made a comment the other day that led be to believe that this post/pencast" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-05-02 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/cathieleblanc-i-cant-find-it-now-but-it-seems-like
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tantek is now distracted with screenshotting old Foursquare badges for aaronpk instead of finishing up in-stream reply contexts
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Loqi [superfeedr] "At #dxbontheblock an #Indieweb message from Zuckerberg." by Kevin Marks on 2018-05-02 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/at-dxbontheblock-an-indieweb-message-from-zuckerberg
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aaronpk I just replaced the login mechanism of webmention.rocks with indielogin.com. If you have your own authorization endpoint, you won't notice anything different. but now it will also work with twitter/github relmeauth.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Chris Aldrich. Musings of a Modern Day Cyberneticist. I use this website as my primary hub for..." by 939abraham on 2018-05-02 https://unoabraham.tumblr.com/post/173504562461
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justb3a.com edited /2018/Düsseldorf/Guest_Book (+254) "/* Guest Book */" (view diff)
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justb3a.com edited /2018/Düsseldorf/Guest_Book (+3) "/* Guest Book */" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /2018/Leaders (+783) "/* the centralised parts of IndieWeb */ Point at the Void Linux issue, link to overview(s) of expenses" (view diff)
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Zegnat Really need a better name for that session.
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-308) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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tantek Zegnat: the full name is "Leaders Summit" - would you prefer expanding the name accordingly
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tantek and it's not a session, it's a separate day
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Twitter has blocked me because my live ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-05-02 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/twitter-has-blocked-me-because-my-live
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Zegnat tantek, that page has Sessions (/Leaders#Sessions) and I do not like the “the centralised parts of IndieWeb” name for a session.
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tantek yeah that's misleading
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Zegnat That the page itself is Leaders Summit is pretty clear to me imho and doesn’t need further changing
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Zegnat What is 2018/Leaders?
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Zegnat What is Leaders Summit?
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Loqi The Leaders Summit is a half-day of activities and sessions before IndieWeb Summit 2017, for everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp in the past two years or at least two Homebrew Website Club meetups with at least one meetup photo https://indieweb.org/leaders_summit
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tantek also we don't do prescheduled sessions for Leaders Summit
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Zegnat Hmm, maybe it should be “topics” rather than “sessions” then?
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tantek yeah I'm checking past history
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Zegnat What is Leaders Summit?
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Loqi The Leaders Summit is a half-day of activities and sessions before IndieWeb Summit 2018, for everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp in the past two years or at least two Homebrew Website Club meetups with at least one meetup photo https://indieweb.org/leaders_summit
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Zegnat Links to 2018 now :)
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tantek ok just reviewed the /2018/Leaders#Sessions and they're mostly a mistaken copy paste of last year's sessions that we already did
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tantek not sure how that happened but it makes no sense
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tantek I'm going delete anything that is just a copy / paste from 2017
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Zegnat I didn’t see a lot of copies. I’ll see what you do to streamline it
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tantek Zegnat HWC was an empty copy
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tantek as compared to 2017/Leaders
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tantek also going to summarily delete any without a proposer
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tantek if a leader wants to talk about something, they should be putting their name on it as the instructions say to
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Zegnat None of them have a proposer
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Zegnat So that’ll clean things up
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tantek Zegnat: renaming to IndieWeb Community Infrastructure
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Zegnat That is a way better name!
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tantek.com edited /2018/Leaders () "(-4580) delete hollow copy/pastes from 2017, note a couple of likely proposers, rename "centralisation" to "IndieWeb Community Infrastructure" to more accurately reflect the topic" (view diff)
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tantek there that should clean it up a bit
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Zegnat goes to have a look
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Zegnat Looks good tantek. Interesting that GWG’s note about the GitHub repos was apparently a copy? Now my note of “also discuss” looks a little weird.
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tantek didn't I update it just be yours?
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tantek you had a separate topic - orgs
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tantek GWG was about repos
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Zegnat I thought GWG meant orgs, because he wrote “these host things like the WordPress Indieweb plugin and various mf2 parsers”
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Zegnat But my point stands fine on its own, not a problem :)
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tantek Zegnat yes it does: https://indieweb.org/2018/Leaders#Overlap_Between_GitHub_Communities
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Zegnat Yep. But the “also” in that first sentence refered specifically to GWGs point. Which was removed, and which I also thought to be about orgs. I have a small internal debate whether it is worth going in and removing the word “also”, hehe
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tantek yes go clean it up
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vanderven.se martijn edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+68) "/* Nürnberg */ Add FB event" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "A great description of the #indieweb Post-Kind plug-in from @ChrisAldrich. If you have your own domain and a WordPress site you are already 60% there." by Greg McVerry on 2018-05-02 http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/05/02/a-great-description-of-the-indieweb-post-kind-plug-in-from-chrisaldrich
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vanderven.se martijn edited /2018/Leaders (+264) "/* Overlap Between GitHub Communities */ Clean-up" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+34) "Virtual HWC time?!" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+33) "/* Virtual European Time */ This Week’s Topic" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+58) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+96) "/* Virtual European Time */ Add indie event, try to follow SF copy writing" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "If you would like to know more ..." by Jeremy Cherfas on 2018-05-02 http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2018/if-you-would-like-to-know-more
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jgmac1106 may want to consider adding off-record. Please do not quote without permssion to description in the indieweb-chat Slack channel. New communitied members may not catch the nuance that it is only channel not archived
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[matthilt] This guy.
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[matthilt] Who's the guy that used his Azure spend four days early and now has no access to his website or backups?
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Zegnat Huh?
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[matthilt] I use Microsoft's Azure cloud platform to host my site and some other services. I have a fixed cost I can spend each month there. I was goofing around and spent all the money early so MS has kindly turned all of my services off. Its my fault really. I just should have planned better.
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[jgmac1106] No, they should give you usage warnings. AWS does. Does Azure hand out credits like candy similar to AWS?
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[matthilt] Kinda. If I'd set up alerts I probably would have been warned. I'll fix it on the 6th
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[jgmac1106] Share your plight with @ mentions on Twitter. I betcha you get a bone thrown your way
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[matthilt] I may do that. I still feel like I goofed off and got caught. Creating 11 VMs in two days will go through your spend pretty quickly
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[jgmac1106] I will keep a look out and try and share it with folks I know in Redmond, but I find asking for things nicely in Twitter gets you free stuff.
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[jgmac1106] It's like writing letters in Summer School to get new sunglasses
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[jgmac1106] Excuse random 80s movie reference
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[matthilt] Haha
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[matthilt] I would be worried if it was a business case or something like that. My personal stuff will be fine.
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[jgmac1106] If it was a business case you would spend more money
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[jgmac1106] I have run my business on AWS and am small enough that in four years exceeded free tier like four times
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[matthilt] That's true
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[jgmac1106] Plus you can always find extra free credits some where. I think my last free year of credit came from a code ai found in a reddit thread for Brazilian start ups
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[matthilt] I may do some looking later. My actual job has me busy today.
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[jgmac1106] Once West Coast wakes up if you ask nicely on Twitter I bet someone helps
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Loqi [superfeedr] "My notes from Future Blockchain Summit this ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-05-02 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/my-notes-from-future-blockchain-summit-this
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tantek hello #indieweb-meta - has vHWC started yet?
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Zegnat We have
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Zegnat I just talked people through indieauth.com/IndieAuth spec/indielogin/selfauth/and the whole thing
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aaronpk you can try it out now!
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aaronpk webmention.rocks uses indielogin.com for signing in (only the receiving tests require logging in)
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Zegnat Yes, jeremycherfas had a hard time keeping things apart, so I just kinda gave the whole run down of services and how it evolved.
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tantek maybe we need a diagram
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tantek and an evolution timeline :)
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jeremycherfas I'm going to try
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schmarty aaronpk: just tried logging into webmention.rocks for receiving tests. worked just like before! used relmeauth with my GPG key.
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aaronpk you must have indieauth.com listed as your authorization endpoint then
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Zegnat jeremycherfas: “martijn will now explain *exactly* what it is” ...
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Zegnat Good to be doing vHWC again. I am going to put it in my calendar again, so it should be on (on schedule) in 2 weeks
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Zegnat For people who do not feel like jumping in now ;)
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jeremycherfas I would be up and down every two minutes, which is easier here where I can scan back at the logs.
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jeremycherfas One thing I didn't ask you to clarify was the difference between authorization and authenticatioon. It seems to me that a lot of what indieauth and selfauth and indielogin are doing is authetication. I am authentically who I say I am.
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jeremycherfas From which it follows that "auth" is a really confusing prefix.
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jeremycherfas And suffix
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tantek jeremycherfas: right, hence authn vs authz
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tantek indieauth and indielogin are authn which we are using to imply authz
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aaronpk that is a confusing sentence
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tantek I *think* selfauth might be just authz? because do anything with identity
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tantek because *it doesn't* do anything with identity
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tantek AFAIK
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aaronpk no selfauth definitely supports identity
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aaronpk i like to say "login" instead of "authentication" so that the two words don't sound the same
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aaronpk authentication/login is when you just want the site to know who you are
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aaronpk authorization is when you want to give some site or app permissions to do stuff with your own website
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jeremycherfas We're ver in #dev now
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tantek aaronpk would you consider "just" a password to be authn or authz then? I thought it was authz (since knowing *just* a password says nothing about identity)
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aaronpk that's a not-practical way to frame the question
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tantek oh? plenty of "just password" access in practice
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aaronpk at least not practical in the context of indieweb tools
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tantek doesn't selfauth *only* ask for pw?
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tantek that's the context
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aaronpk by that logic, passwords would never be able to be used to log in to anything
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tantek hence I think you're overly narrowly using "login"
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aaronpk also this train of thought is a fun brain teaser but is not helpful for people who want to understand how things like quill or micropub clients work
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aaronpk a password itself doesn't tell you who the user is, but a password is commonly used to verify that the user is who they say they are
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tantek aaronpk, yes it is ambiguous. "just" a pw could be either authn or authz
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tantek IMO "login" is similarly ambiguous
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aaronpk in the indieweb context, when you log in to an app or website that is not your own site, you are both providing it your identity and proving that
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tantek aaronpk, hence I prefer *sign-in* as a more specific verb, to mean authn which implies authz
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aaronpk well the point of the distinction is to have a term that *does not* mean authz
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tantek it's hard to exclude authz from authn so I'm not sure what your (practical) goal/point is
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aaronpk we don't generally deal with the case of someone being unauthorized to log in to an app
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tantek it's called being banned :P
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aaronpk right and how often has that come up yet
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aaronpk my practical goal is to have an easy to understand distinction between the two indieauth flows
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aaronpk that avoids sending people down a rabbit hole of all the subtleties of authz vs authn
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tantek wrong reasoning - anything about safety / blocking / banning needs to be treated *differently*, more urgently, than it's apparent (especially self-experienced) experience would imply
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tantek re: "how often"
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tantek than its* apparent
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aaronpk i'm not saying we shouldn't support that use case
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aaronpk just that there is a very real confusion by people and having a clear explanation is useful
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tantek I'm saying don't dismiss it with "how often"
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aaronpk and the simplest version of that is authz is used to give apps access to do stuff with your website, and authn is saying who you are which is most commonly used when logging in to sites
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Zegnat authn = establishing that I control a URL/profile; authz = giving someone else some control over the URL/profile.
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tantek I still prefer signing-in for indieauth
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tantek (as well as relmeauth)
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tantek hence Web Sign-in
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tantek login implies the common need to *create* a login for each site
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aaronpk i don't really see a meaningful difference between "sign-in" and "login"
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tantek whereas sign-in implies you already have the ability and don't need to create an account
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tantek there you go
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aaronpk i don't really feel like that term has that connotation but okay
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Zegnat Login/signin to me: whenever there is a form I have to put something into, and a button to press to then get (or not get) access based on what I put in the form
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tantek This was a very deliberate decision I made when I came up with the "Web sign-in" naming / microcopy back in the day
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Zegnat Whether that is my URL on the indieweb wiki, or a username and password on Facebook, all the same to me
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tantek Zegnat because you're ignoring the distinguishing aspect of such UIs which I explicitly mentioned
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tantek so your argument is not helpful
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Zegnat I am just saying that the visual of a form that gives access is what I call a login. And that no matter what word you put above it, that’s my instinct. Wondered if aaronpk might have the same idea, as he doesn’t see a meaningful difference either
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tantek Zegnat I am just saying you are ignoring key aspects of the visual of a form in making your argument
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tantek key aspects which are what I'm talking about
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aaronpk I do actually prefer the term sign-in, but not for that reason
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tantek yes if you ignore those key aspects, you won't see a meaningful difference
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Zegnat Hmm. Don’t think I follow. Which aspect am I not seeing? I am probably blind to it in this conversation as much as I am blind to it on the web then :/
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aaronpk there's a lot of research that suggests sign-in is a more user-friendly term too https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/1080/using-sign-in-vs-using-log-in
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tantek Zegnat, the aspect that nearly every such form has a "create account/login" option
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aaronpk https://web.archive.org/web/20130416031325/http://0xtc.com/2009/06/25/login-logout-vs-sign-in-sign-out-vs-log-in-sign-out-a-short-roundup.xhtml/
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aaronpk that's from 2009, i wonder if that's changed at all
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tantek I don't want to bother with screenshots right now, but go check out any login/sign-in page of any site, or any start screen of any native app
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tantek Zegnat ^^^
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tantek agree with sign-in being more user-friendly aaronpk
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Zegnat Interesting. Whether I have to create an account or can use an existing count (from silo / OpenID / IndieAuth) is all the same to me, I guess. Which is why that never registers for me, probably.
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Zegnat Will have to take better note
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tantek logout of your favorite sites and take screenshots of their complete login/sign-in UI
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jeremycherfas All I know is that when I get to create an account and I'm offered login/signup with Facebook or Twitter, I look extra hard for the one that allows me to use my email.
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tantek yup
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aaronpk :same:
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[kevinmarks] o/ re being unable to log in to a silo
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jeremycherfas \o
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Zegnat I, uuhm, don’t actually look. I just hit the key combination for my password manager. Hahaha
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Loqi nice
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Zegnat Which may be another reason that I am basically blind to login forms
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www.ohhelloana.blog created /User:Www.ohhelloana.blog (+196) "Attempt at a profile page" (view diff)
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jkphl.is edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+127) "/* Photos */" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "I documented the WordPress plugins I adopted in January when I started shooting for IndieWeb adoption and started my microblogging journey. It seems to work pretty well but give this post a read if you want to see what I did or are willing to educate me on what to change." by Ron on 2018-05-02 https://ron.theguests.us/2018/05/02/1401/
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calumryan considering adding an RSVP interested-in option for future HWC London events
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Zegnat Indie RSVPs already support interested, right?
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Zegnat What is RSVP?
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Loqi An RSVP is a reply to an event post that says whether the sender is or is not attending, might attend, or is just interested in the event https://indieweb.org/rsvp
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Zegnat “Possible RSVP values: yes, no, maybe, interested” :)
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www.ohhelloana.blog created /Template:ana-r (+145) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|http://ohhelloana.blog/assets/profile-img.jpg}} [User:Www.ohhelloana.blog|Ana]</span>"" (view diff)
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www.ohhelloana.blog edited /Template:ana-r (+2) (view diff)
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www.ohhelloana.blog edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* London */" (view diff)
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www.ohhelloana.blog edited /events/2018-05-02-homebrew-website-club (+121) "/* Photos */" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "The registration page for the upcoming IndieWebSummit from June 26-27, 2018 in Portland is now up. Whether you&#8217;re just starting your first website or building bleeding edge web applications, this is the place to be. RSVP now! #Indieweb #BarCamp If you&#8217;re game for an extended trip, I&#8217;ll note that it&#8217;s right after Open Source Bridge (@OSBridge) &#8230; Continue reading """ by Chris Aldrich on 2018-05-02 http://boffosocko.com/2018/05/02/registration-for-indiewebsummit-2018/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Liked: The Indieweb privacy challenge (Webmentions, silo backfeeds, and the&hellip;" by Colin Walker on 2018-05-02 https://colinwalker.blog/02-05-2018-1933/
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tantek should we collapse /federation and /Federated_Social_Web ? cc: chrisaldrich
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tantek or we could keep /Federated_Social_Web for its historical context and put everything new in /federation ?
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tantek now looking to see if FSW is purely historical at this point as suspected
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[kevinmarks] Do we want a fediverse page?
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tantek is it notable beyond just /federation ?
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tantek does it need its own page on the indieweb wiki? why?
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tantek what is FSW
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Loqi The phrase Federated Social Web is an early 2010s phrase that historically referred to several things, including federation with social standards, the Federated Social Web Summit event(s), and 2010-era social web efforts https://indieweb.org/FSW
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tantek FSW << http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Federated_Social_Web
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Loqi ok, I added "http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Federated_Social_Web" to the "See Also" section of /Federated_Social_Web https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47430&oldid=47428
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tantek FSW << ^^^ last updated 2012-08-01
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Loqi ok, I added "^^^ last updated 2012-08-01" to the "See Also" section of /Federated_Social_Web https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47431&oldid=47430
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tantek wow I found another event silo
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tantek eventil.com
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tantek e.g. https://eventil.com/events/federated-social-web-europe
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sknebel Does anyone know if HWC Brighton hasn't happened in a while or if it's just missing from the wiki?
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tantek sknebel: it happens once in a while when adactio organizes it and edits the wiki accordingly
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tantek sknebel: see https://indieweb.org/Special:Contributions/Adactio.com for evidence of HWC Brighton
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sknebel Ah, good.
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2017 (+13219) "/* 2017 */ archive Oct-Dec" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events () "(-13232) /* 2017 */ archived: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=events/2017&oldid=47440" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:events (+25) "+2018" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2018 (+331) "stub" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Control not Disruption as My #IndieWeb Goal" by Greg McVerry on 2018-05-02 https://medium.com/@jgmac1106/control-not-disruption-as-my-indieweb-goal-aa70aecd8ced?source=rss-be51ee086a18------2
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Control not Disruption as My #IndieWeb Goal" by &lt;span class='p-author h-card'&gt;Greg McVerry&lt;/span&gt; on 2018-05-02 http://jgregorymcverry.com/control-not-disruption-as-my-indieweb-goal/
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